NCAA To Sanction UND if School Does Not Adopt New Nickname

[petey23]

Also, your idea of good solution is to not do anything, stay North Dakota, wait for the NCAA to tell UND they need a nickname, then do the entire process over again?  That is best for the University of North Dakota?

Going back and creating a process to choose a new nickname? Yes without a doubt that is what is best for UND. The first try failed. Learn from it and try again.

[The Sicatoka]

So, if we have a nickname and people still cheer "Go Sioux", which they will for years to come, and the NCAA "hears about it", they'll sanction UND.  If we don't have a nickname and people still cheer "Go Sioux", which they will for years to come, and the NCAA "hears about it", they'll sanction UND.

No, as Johnboy pointed out, no school that had a sanctionable name and that has chosen a new nickname has faced any sanctions after adopting the new name. 

[darell1976]

Going back and creating a process to choose a new nickname? Yes without a doubt that is what is best for UND. The first try failed. Learn from it and try again.

And when that committee comes up with 5 names people don't like we can keep the no nickname, be on sanctions, and pick a third committee. We'll call it the nickname merry-go-round.

[Benny Baker]

No, as Johnboy pointed out, no school that had a sanctionable name and that has chosen a new nickname has faced any sanctions after adopting the new name. 

presupposing that those fanbases had not continued to use their former nicknames and/or that other schools obviously did not complain, of course.  Moreover, the NCAA's position via-a-vis other member institutions is not a great barometer of the NCAA's position with respect to any other school.  If it was, I'd say throw "Fighting Sioux" back on the ballot because the Seminoles, Aztecs, Utes, and Fighting Irish are free to use ethnic or race-related nicknames.

[mksioux]

There are four angles to this issue as I see it.  

First, from a pure legal standpoint, I believe the NCAA would lose in court if it invoked the settlement agreement and imposed sanctions against UND for not choosing a new nickname.  It may have had a chance prior to the 2012 amendment, but it would have almost no chance now.  Whether fans continue to use the Sioux nickname or whether the NCAA receives complaints from other member institutions is irrelevant as to the settlement agreement.  I know the NCAA is a big powerful organization and the association is "their game" and we're just playing in it etc. etc.  That has nothing to do with the settlement agreement.  The settlement agreement is a finite legally binding contract.  The NCAA simply cannot make stuff up as it goes along when it comes to the settlement agreement.  It can't say one day that UND is in compliance with the settlement agreement despite not having a nickname after the deadline, and then change its mind years later based on new criteria.  It can't start unilaterally adding clauses and conditions about fans' use of the old name and creating new standards to govern the contract. 

Second, everything I said above depends on the State of North Dakota actually defending UND in the event the NCAA imposes sanctions based on the settlement agreement.  I have real doubt whether there is any appetite by State leaders to be in court with the NCAA again, even if UND has the winning argument and is 100% legally correct.  So my legal opinion is tempered by the reality on the ground.  If UND is not going to defend its rights, the NCAA can do what it wants.  So, yes, the NCAA could invoke the settlement agreement and impose sanctions.  They'd be legally wrong, but that doesn't much matter if the other side doesn't fight back.

Third, the NCAA has other avenues to impose sanctions against UND, whether it's based on a violation of some other existing policy or by enacting a new policy.  

Fourth, in my opinion, none of this really matters because just by mentioning the possibility of future sanctions, the NCAA has given President Kelley enough of an excuse to enact a new nickname.  I'd be shocked at this point if Kelley actually chose no-nickname.  But I've been wrong before, so you never know.

My main goal in all of this discussion going back several months is to try to convince some of you that you were, and are, wrong on the first issue. Secondary to that, I believe there is an avenue where UND could go without a nickname until the NCAA actually tells UND it has to enact a new one.  It's perhaps a little dangerous to do that, but I think UND could minimize the risk of sanctions by learning and understanding the process in which the NCAA would go about imposing sanctions in the future based on this new criteria, and having a plan in place to enact a new nickname quickly to avoid sanctions.

[UND1983]

 

My main goal in all of this discussion going back several months is to try to convince some of you that you were, and are, wrong on the first issue. Secondary to that, I believe there is an avenue where UND could go without a nickname until the NCAA actually tells UND it has to enact a new one.  It's perhaps a little dangerous to do that, but I think UND could minimize the risk of sanctions by learning and understanding the process in which the NCAA would go about imposing sanctions in the future based on this new criteria, and having a plan in place to enact a new nickname quickly to avoid sanctions.

Once again, what is the point of not picking a nickname and delaying the invevitable?  And I don't want an answer that comes from a hockey rube point of view.  

As you alluded to, UND and the State of ND are not putting one more dollar into this stupid fiasco.  They will never go to court again so get that out of your heads when trying to save the Sioux legacy.

Give us the positives of not picking a nickname.

[darell1976]

Once again, what is the point of not picking a nickname and delaying the invevitable?  And I don't want an answer that comes from a hockey rube point of view.  

As you alluded to, UND and the State of ND are not putting one more dollar into his stupid fiasco.  They will never go to court again so get that out of your heads when trying to save the Sioux legacy.

Give us the positives of not picking a nickname.

Exactly. People need to accept that UND will have a nickname and it is one of the 5 names the committee chose. Pick a name, avoid any future sanctions, and cheer on the UND (insert new nickname here).

[mksioux]

Once again, what is the point of not picking a nickname and delaying the invevitable?  And I don't want an answer that comes from a hockey rube point of view.  

Give us the positives of not picking a nickname.

That's never really been my goal in this discussion.  I think there are good reasons to move-on.  That's a good debate.  I just don't like scare tactics and misinformation to be the basis to convince people we have to enact a new nickname now.

More specifically to your point, I'm not 100% convinced it's inevitable.  There's a big difference between the NCAA mentioning future sanctions in a conversation with a UND administrator (probably at the urging of the UND administrator) and actually going through with it.  Could the NCAA do it?  Yes.  Is it certain they will?  No.  There is a potential for PR backlash.  To the average person, sanctioning a school for not having a nickname is beyond ridiculous.  The NCAA may ultimately decide it's not worth it.  Of course, UND would need to assume the NCAA is not bluffing and have a plan in place to avoid sanctions. 

On a personal level, I'd be fine with enacting Roughriders now and getting it over with.  But when I start looking at the other finalists, delay seems much more appealing.  I know the committee was comprised of good people doing their best, but it's just amazing to me how bad the finalists are.  Put it this way, if my choice is between Sundogs and delay, I would absolutely and unequivocally choose delay. 

Edited August 19, 2015 by mksioux

[UND1983]

What are some nicknames that should have been on the list?  I would like to hear the golden name that will mentally allow the Sioux crowd to move on.

[darell1976]

What are some nicknames that should have been on the list?  I would like to hear the golden name that will mentally allow the Sioux crowd to move on

The only name would be Fighting Sioux, any other name will cause someone to groan.

[Benny Baker]

What are some nicknames that should have been on the list?  I would like to hear the golden name that will mentally allow the Sioux crowd to move on

Ermines?

[UND1983]

Ermines?

If it will shut the Sioux Forever crowd up and allow the University to move forward, I am on board.  

[bigskyvikes]

If it will shut the Sioux Forever crowd up and allow the University to move forward, I am on board.  

If getting a new nickname will shut you and the five total in your group up, I'm for that!

Stars it is!!

[Siouxperfan7]

No name is going to be good enough to the no nickname/North Dakota crowd no matter how many times the process is done.  Suggesting that the process should be done over is just delaying the inevitable.  

[darell1976]

This is why UND needs a new nickname, to end the bickering among UND fans. We should be united in choosing a new name, a new chapter in the history books, not cut each other down. A name needs to be picked so this issue will die. Nickname debates has ended at all the other schools who had to change their names, but this one is festering out of control. 

[mksioux]

What are some nicknames that should have been on the list?  I would like to hear the golden name that will mentally allow the Sioux crowd to move on.

No name is going to be good enough to the no nickname/North Dakota crowd no matter how many times the process is done.  Suggesting that the process should be done over is just delaying the inevitable.  

Keep lumping everyone together if you want.  I realize you think it helps your argument if everyone who disagrees with you is a uninformed foaming-at-the-mouth hockey-only rube that sleeps at night in their Fighting Sioux footie pajamas.  But it actually doesn't.   I'm not part of the "Sioux crowd' whatever that even means.  I fully understand and have long-ago accepted that Fighting Sioux is never coming back nor would I ever advocate for it to come back, given the indefinite sanctions that would come with it.  I'm a UND football fan just as much as hockey, maybe even more.   Yet I still (partially) disagree with you.  Imagine that!

[UND1983]

Keep lumping everyone together if you want.  I realize you think it helps your argument if everyone who disagrees with you is a uninformed foaming-at-the-mouth hockey-only rube that sleeps at night in their Fighting Sioux footie pajamas.  But it actually doesn't.   I'm not part of the "Sioux crowd' whatever that even means.  I fully understand and have long-ago accepted that Fighting Sioux is never coming back nor would I ever advocate for it to come back, given the indefinite sanctions that would come with it.  I'm a UND football fan just as much as hockey, maybe even more.   Yet I still (partially) disagree with you.  Imagine that!

OK, so you are indifferent to the old Sioux name and long ago accepted that it's gone.  What is the problem then?  

I am still waiting to hear what these brand new, shiny nicknames are that everyone is going to agree upon 2-3 years from now?

[ericpnelson]

The whole "every nickname sucks though" argument is a red herring. It's just an ever moving hurdle those who would never see a new nickname in place use, so they can keep the focus on the no nickname option. I honestly believe that a lot of no nickname supporters wish the list was worse. It has unfortunately become more about advancing their issue than coming up with an appropriate solution. 

It's just as insulting to assume that everyone who likes one of the five options is a spineless appeaser to the NCAA as it is to assume every no nickname supporter is mindless to the reality that Sioux is gone. I am fine with the insults that will come my way (condom jokes, way to steal from a high school, far-reaching state connection), but I throw my support behind Roughriders, and I don't do this from a place of fear of the NCAA. At many times, no nickname was my second choice; it was removed from my consideration after the goon email, but it was behind Roughriders before that. I don't know how I am to believe that no nickname will merit more spirit and inspired marketing, when all evidence in the last 3 years suggests otherwise. I have seen great teams with worsening atmosphere. I have seen very little in terms of new apparel that I would even consider purchasing. Why would that change with the same course of action? 

Many complain about he process. There has not existed a perfect representative model in history, I didn't expect one here. Certainly it could have been better, as it seems to been designed to spread the blame or blur the aim of any displeasure with its results or dealings, but one thing I believe done properly was that both committees were inclusive. The doors to this arena have been open all along. Any lack of impact I have had on fellow UND stakeholders, including the committee and Kelley, is from a lack of tact, effort, or ability on my part. Whether it be posting here, social media, speaking at the town hall (time largely taken up by the Sioux forever crowd), emailing the President or the committees themselves, or writing a letter to the editor of your favorite newspaper (they have been quite liberal in allowing those to published, IMO), the opportunity existed to sway my fellow man. If Roughriders is not the choice of the University, and I claim I wasn't given the chance to influence the decision as an alumni, it should be, at best, taken as a demerit to my sense of reality and pragmatism, or at worst (and more probable), seen as evidence of pettiness and a lack of maturity on my part, to cope with my disappointment.

If North Dakota is chosen as the new nickname, I hope we can move forward creating something unique. As much as I cherished the Sioux nickname (if you ever walk into my house, the walls are littered with the Bennet Brien logo), to remain in limbo between North Dakota and wishing Sioux was back is to stale the air. I will support the University wholeheartedly with the option that moves forward. Do I wish it is Roughriders? Absolutely, but I will not tear down the walls of an institution I spend so much time, money, and emotional investment in to lessen the hit to my ego if it's not to be. As some seem to suggest will happen if their choice is not picked, I will not abandon the university in the event of scorn for my personal preference, nor will I riot against it, even if its Sundogs. I hope that isn't too much to ask of those who see things differently.

[Benny Baker]

What if some fans, alumni, stakeholders, etc. have come accustomed to North Dakota/UND over the past three years and think North Dakota/UND is a unique, suitable option moving forward?  I personally like it much better than Sundogs and its inevitable logo of a husky with a linear rainbow shooting out of its ass.  But that's just me; I'm personally content with North Dakota/UND for the time being.

[UND1983]

What if some fans, alumni, stakeholders, etc. have come accustomed to North Dakota/UND over the past three years and think North Dakota/UND is a unique, suitable option moving forward?  I personally like it much better than Sundogs and its inevitable logo of a husky with a linear rainbow shooting out of its ass.  But that's just me; I'm personally content with North Dakota/UND for the time being.

Once again, why "for the time being"...then what?

[Benny Baker]

Once again, why "for the time being"...then what?

perpetuity then.  

[jdub27]

What if some fans, alumni, stakeholders, etc. have come accustomed to North Dakota/UND over the past three years and think North Dakota/UND is a unique, suitable option moving forward?  I personally like it much better than Sundogs and its inevitable logo of a husky with a linear rainbow shooting out of its ass.  But that's just me; I'm personally content with North Dakota/UND for the time being.

Then they can continue to support North Dakota/UND since it has been the name of the institution since 1883, long before Flickertails, Sioux, Fighting Sioux or the Blackhawks, Geometric and Brien logo.  There has always been and always will be just the interlocking logo or just the block words "North Dakota" available on apparel and merchandise.  Go ahead and buy it.  Among the many (already listed thousands of times) reasons, recent merchandise sales and continued to confusion with Notre Dame are among the reasons that an actual, individual identity for the athletic teams is easily the more logical choice.

[Benny Baker]

Then they can continue to support North Dakota/UND since it has been the name of the institution since 1883, long before Flickertails, Sioux, Fighting Sioux or the Blackhawks, Geometric and Brien logo.  There has always been and always will be just the interlocking logo or just the block words "North Dakota" available on apparel and merchandise.  Go ahead and buy it.  Among the many (already listed thousands of times) reasons, recent merchandise sales and continued to confusion with Notre Dame are among the reasons that an actual, individual identity for the athletic teams is easily the more logical choice.

It's about more than purchasing clothes.

[UND1983]

perpetuity then.  

You don't want a new nickname, now or ever.  Finally some honesty.  

If more of you would answer honestly like that we could finally clear up the real intentions.  

[jdub27]

It's about more than purchasing clothes.

Which I acknowledged when I stated declining merchandise sales was one of the many reasons.  I only pointed it out because it can be looked it as an indicator that people don't agree with your stance that it is a "unique, suitable option" because merchandise isn't flying off the shelf since it has become the only option.