2nd Annual Big Sky v. Summit Measuring Contest

[JohnboyND7]

I thought fat, drunk, and stupid replaced the SAT test for admission into FU.

Well...Won't dispute the drunk deal.

But regarding the stupid....(and for real _arell, everyone knows the ACT is the big thing up in this neck of the woods)...nice little table made by Hammersmith.

UND ACT GPA Apply Admit Enroll Admit% Enroll% Retent 4yr 5yr 6yr

2003 22.9 3.36 4,066 3,096 2,233 76.1% 72.1% 78% 17.1% 40.5% 49.6%

2004 22.7 3.36 4,255 2,923 2,200 68.7% 75.3% 75% 22.2% 46.4% 54.2%

2005 23.4 3.41 3,749 2,725 1,884 72.7% 69.1% 75% 22.6% 48.5% 56.1%

2006 23.1 3.37 3,698 2,725 1,900 73.7% 69.7% 77% 21.7% 46.1% 53.8%

2007 23.3 3.36 3,783 2,649 1,855 70.0% 70.0% 75% 22.1% 46.2% 53.8%

2008 23.2 3.38 4,069 3,067 1,942 75.4% 63.3% 78% 22.0% 46.8% 53.9%

2009 23.3 3.38 4,111 3,003 1,992 73.0% 66.3% 77% 23.1% 46.1% 53.5%

2010 23.5 3.38 4,796 3,357 2,096 70.0% 62.4% 79% 21.1% 44.0% 51.2%

2011 23.4 3.36 4,857 3,439 2,091 70.8% 60.8% 77% 23.0% 46.4% 54.3%

2012 23.5 3.33 5,408 3,984 2,360 73.7% 59.2% 74% 25.3% 47.5% 54.3%

2013 23.6 3.36 4,735 3,362 1,908 71.0% 56.8%

NDSU ACT GPA Apply Admit Enroll Admit% Enroll% Retent 4yr 5yr 6yr

2003 23.0 3.37 3,245 3,153 1,986 97.2% 63.0% 78% 16.2% 40.8% 50.3%

2004 23.0 3.37 3,665 3,538 2,147 96.5% 60.7% 80.6% 18.3% 43.8% 53.1%

2005 23.0 3.38 4,007 3,346 2,021 83.5% 60.4% 77% 19.1% 46.0% 55.1%

2006 23.2 3.33 4,120 3,603 2,076 87.5% 57.6% 77.5% 18.5% 44.1% 52.7%

2007 23.4 3.39 4,382 3,719 2,166 84.9% 58.2% 82% 17.4% 42.3% 50.3%

2008 23.4 3.38 5,678 4,542 2,661 80.0% 58.6% 80.8% 22.4% 44.0% 50.5%

2009 23.5 3.37 5,646 4,473 2,436 79.2% 54.5% 78%

2010 23.7 3.37 5,720 4,400 2,400 76.9% 54.5% 78% 23.0% 43.7% 50.6%

2011 23.8 3.39 5,096 4,383 2,420 86.0% 55.2% 76% 22.9% 46.7% 53.3%

2012 23.7 3.39 5,562 4,647 2,441 83.5% 52.5% 79.6% 23.7% 45.9% 52.4%

[jdub27]

So not only does NDSU give twice as many tuition waivers as UND (and more than all other NDUS schools combined), they basically admit everyone (almost 85% of applicants over the last 10 years).

ACT and GPA average over the last 10 years are almost identical.

[darell1976]

So not only does NDSU give twice as many tuition waivers as UND (and more than all other NDUS schools combined), they basically admit everyone (almost 85% of applicants).

They did admit _ohnboyND7.

[Cratter]

Did NDSU really admit 97% of applicants in 2003?! Ha

[Hayduke]

It's a little more complicated than what the fry cook believes:

http://www.bakkentoday.com/event/article/id/372281/publisher_ID/1/

[JohnboyND7]

They did admit _ohnboyND7.

North Dakota law I believe...

[ndsubison1]

That's probably another sport UND would beat FU in. Maybe if the sports were milking of cows or how many community service hours to ignore then FU wins hands down.

Grand Forks is a rec softball town

[ndsubison1]

They did admit _ohnboyND7.

i lol'd

[darell1976]

Cable One is in deep with Bison fans...Cable One "the cable company of Fargo" does not have TruTV so the only people in the FM area to watch the Bison is people in West Fargo, Moorhead, and those in Fargo with Satalite. Bars are going to be packed tonight, along with a bunch of pissed off people.

[darell1976]

If anyone wants some entertainment head over to BV as there are multiple threads about the MAC and moving up to the FBS. Since Saul is leaving for Ohio some of the dolts over there think NDSU should go with him and join the MAC. It's so funny to hear them compare budgets, attendance even who is better the MAC or the Slummit. Smokin the good stuff over there especially when they say the Slummit is better.

[JohnboyND7]

If anyone wants some entertainment head over to BV as there are multiple threads about the MAC and moving up to the FBS. Since Saul is leaving for Ohio some of the dolts over there think NDSU should go with him and join the MAC. It's so funny to hear them compare budgets, attendance even who is better the MAC or the Slummit. Smokin the good stuff over there especially when they say the Slummit is better.

Me thinks you did not understand the context of the conversation.

[darell1976]

Me thinks you did not understand the context of the conversation.

Sadly I do. Because Saul goes to the MAC and you beat Oklahoma your basketball team should dump the Slummit and move and at the same time since you guys beat K-State and won 3 NC FBS is the place to go. There are some level headed Bison fans (I know it's rare) that bring up money (scholarships) attendance (can't get more out of the Fargodome). What context do you think those geniuses were talking about?

[mg2009]

So not only does NDSU give twice as many tuition waivers as UND (and more than all other NDUS schools combined), they basically admit everyone (almost 85% of applicants over the last 10 years).

ACT and GPA average over the last 10 years are almost identical.

the tuition waver issue is meaningless if we don't know to whom they're going. For instance if the demand for engineering graduate students is high enough that in certain disciplines students get full tuition wavers and stipends, like some engineers at UND do, and if one field is predominant at UND or at NDSU, then you can have a pretty big differential pretty quick. I don't know if pharma at ndsu even has a grad program but if it does I could see that program having a big expensive tuition waver pool to get quality grad assistants if they are a big department. So the jury is out until you know where they are going (i've only heard anecdotes about foreign students, which could mean anything)

UND ACT GPA Apply Admit Enroll Admit% Enroll% Retent 4yr 5yr 6yr

2003 22.9 3.36 4,066 3,096 2,233 76.1% 72.1% 78% 17.1% 40.5% 49.6%

2012 23.5 3.33 5,408 3,984 2,360 73.7% 59.2% 74% 25.3% 47.5% 54.3%

NDSU ACT GPA Apply Admit Enroll Admit% Enroll% Retent 4yr 5yr 6yr

2003 23.0 3.37 3,245 3,153 1,986 97.2% 63.0% 78% 16.2% 40.8% 50.3%

2012 23.7 3.39 5,562 4,647 2,441 83.5% 52.5% 79.6% 23.7% 45.9% 52.4%

for the last year with data for both schools, NDSU had a modest advantage in act score and gpa among new students, more applicants more admissions and more enrollment. Even giving UND the benefit of the doubt and calling the student bodies even, then why are the enrollment, admission and retention numbers so different? Enrollment should be biased to the lowest quality students you admit, so if NDSU is letting anyone in... then who is UND letting in? The aviation students probably account most of the deviation between the schools, since its i significantly different applicant body.

moreover, how are none of you concerned that outside of aviation, more students want to go to ndsu and they on average have higher entrance measurements? I'm concerned about this and the future value of my degree, and that the rest of you just want to make excuses or divert attention instead of doing something about it is very disappointing. There is no excuse for UND losing ground to NDSU.

[JohnboyND7]

Sadly I do. Because Saul goes to the MAC and you beat Oklahoma your basketball team should dump the Slummit and move and at the same time since you guys beat K-State and won 3 NC FBS is the place to go. There are some level headed Bison fans (I know it's rare) that bring up money (scholarships) attendance (can't get more out of the Fargodome). What context do you think those geniuses were talking about?

If it would be worth spending millions of dollars extra every year to play against those schools if asked? Seems like an reasonable discussion.

[jdub27]

the tuition waver issue is meaningless if we don't know to whom they're going. For instance if the demand for engineering graduate students is high enough that in certain disciplines students get full tuition wavers and stipends, like some engineers at UND do, and if one field is predominant at UND or at NDSU, then you can have a pretty big differential pretty quick. I don't know if pharma at ndsu even has a grad program but if it does I could see that program having a big expensive tuition waver pool to get quality grad assistants if they are a big department. So the jury is out until you know where they are going (i've only heard anecdotes about foreign students, which could mean anything)

I agree that there is more to it than just numbers but to say what is presented is meaningless is being willfully ignorant. Here are some quick breakdowns of percentage of students who get waivers:

ND Students

UND - 18.2%

NDSU - 24.0%

Non ND Residents

UND - 5.8%

NDSU - 17.4%

International

UND - 26.7%

NDSU - 78.9%

Total waivers given out

UND - 2,430 to 2,022 unduplicated students worth $8.9 million

NDSU - 5,034 to 3,892 unduplicated students wroth $18.0 million

UND gave out 699 full waivers worth $3.7 million. NDSU gave out 1,044 full waivers worth $7.3 million.

Of waivers given out, the number that was mandated by statutes or policy was 328 waivers worth $486K for UND and 424 worth $699K for NDSU (schools had no choice but to give these waivers).

My two points: 1) 25.1% of NDSU students get a waiver of some sort and they give out 57% of the total waivers in the entire NDUS system. By comparison, UND is at 12.1% and 28%. I don't care how you spin it, that is a significant disparity, especially considering the numbers include UND's law and med school. 2) While there are grants and stipends that come along with some of these waivers, NDSU continues to claim they are underfunded while adding to their enrollment with students who aren't paying tuition/room/board/etc or only portions of it. So not only are there a large amount of students getting waivers (revenue NDSU is foregoing), NDSU is getting still gets funding from the state to support them because as far as I can tell, the funding formula includes all students, regardless of how much of a waiver they get. Not bad from NDSU's perspective.

[darell1976]

If it would be worth spending millions of dollars extra every year to play against those schools if asked? Seems like an reasonable discussion.

Answer this question honestly...if you are Gene Taylor and you get a call from the Sun Belt to be a full member starting fall 2015 would you accept?

[Bison Dan]

Answer this question honestly...if you are Gene Taylor and you get a call from the Sun Belt to be a full member starting fall 2015 would you accept?

No way in hell would he do it. First of all where is the money going to come from? Probably 4-5 million more per year. 22 more scholarships plus more travel. Would the state kick in the difference? No way. Go to some !@#!$ bowl game that will cost you money.

[darell1976]

No way in hell would he do it. First of all where is the money going to come from? Probably 4-5 million more per year. 22 more scholarships plus more travel. Would the state kick in the difference? No way. Go to some !@#!$ bowl game that will cost you money.

That's why I don't get why some people are in a hurry to go to the FBS. Unless (for us) you get an invite into the MW there is no conference that would be attractive to the schools up here. The MAC I would question because how great would a game against Eastern Michigan, Buffalo or Kent State is, and the SB is just the GWFC of the FBS, so IMO unless the MW calls I say stay FCS, challenge for an actual NC (not the who gives a !@#$ bowl), and wait until the FBS implodes (whenever that happens).

[fightingsioux4life]

No way in hell would he do it. First of all where is the money going to come from? Probably 4-5 million more per year. 22 more scholarships plus more travel. Would the state kick in the difference? No way. Go to some !@#!$ bowl game that will cost you money.

This is something I have brought up before as well. I honestly don't understand why some people think playing in a lousy, two-bit bowl game on a weeknight in December on ESPN2 with half the seats in the stadium empty gives a program such a huge shot in the arm. Calling it FBS doesn't make it great.

[mg2009]

I agree that there is more to it than just numbers but to say what is presented is meaningless is being willfully ignorant. Here are some quick breakdowns of percentage of students who get waivers:

ND Students

UND - 18.2%

NDSU - 24.0%

Non ND Residents

UND - 5.8%

NDSU - 17.4%

International

UND - 26.7%

NDSU - 78.9%

Total waivers given out

UND - 2,430 to 2,022 unduplicated students worth $8.9 million

NDSU - 5,034 to 3,892 unduplicated students wroth $18.0 million

UND gave out 699 full waivers worth $3.7 million. NDSU gave out 1,044 full waivers worth $7.3 million.

Of waivers given out, the number that was mandated by statutes or policy was 328 waivers worth $486K for UND and 424 worth $699K for NDSU (schools had no choice but to give these waivers).

My two points: 1) 25.1% of NDSU students get a waiver of some sort and they give out 57% of the total waivers in the entire NDUS system. By comparison, UND is at 12.1% and 28%. I don't care how you spin it, that is a significant disparity, especially considering the numbers include UND's law and med school. 2) While there are grants and stipends that come along with some of these waivers, NDSU continues to claim they are underfunded while adding to their enrollment with students who aren't paying tuition/room/board/etc or only portions of it. So not only are there a large amount of students getting waivers (revenue NDSU is foregoing), NDSU is getting still gets funding from the state to support them because as far as I can tell, the funding formula includes all students, regardless of how much of a waiver they get. Not bad from NDSU's perspective.

Considering the high proportion of out of state and out of country waiver recipients, i think I large portion of this is being driven by the differences in graduate programs. Business, law and medicine students typically don't get waivers because their services aren't very useful to the university, and med students don't because it's a suppliers market for med school. Engineering, math, comp sci and the sciences get the waivers because their skills are useful to the research goal of the university. So the things UND has don't get waivers and the things that NDSU has do. That doesn't account for all of it, or maybe even most of it, it doesn't explain why more ND students are getting waivers or why they have more statutory waivers.