2013 WCHA Final Five

[GFG]

LOL! Detroit looks like Minnetonka compared to Chicago!

Sadly this is very true lol.

I think the WCHA is just fine with St. Paul and Grand Rapids. Both cities are great for tourists and hockey fans.

[bale31]

Exactly what do you think we were trying to do? You can't get it within 150 miles. No matter what it is going to suck for the fans.

I think I didn't explain very clearly with that (hell it was 12:30 when I posted it). What I'm saying is that the closest school to Green Bay is NMU at 178 miles and goes up to 440 miles with Ferris of the schools mentioned. You're correct in that it is more centrally located. I don't dispute that. What I'm saying is that it makes more sense to hold it in a location that is close to at least one school (arbitrarily using 150 miles) and you have that with MSP (Kato) and Grand Rapids (Ferris). You also have large alumni bases in MSP (Kato and BSU) and to a lesser extent Grand Rapids (due to it's relative proximity to Detroit) in the MI schools.

Let's face it, these schools don't and probably won't ever travel very well. I'm an MSU fan (there you go watchmaker ) and I've been to about half of the current WCHA venues with MSU (MN, SCSU, UNO, Denver, UND, and will be going to CC next weekend) and the amount of fans there was beyond underwhelming. I would say that MN and SCSU had the most fans with about 100-200 and that's probably being generous. I think that it's going to be pretty difficult to go to a central point like Green Bay and have too many fans drive/fly to get there. It' just unrealistic. Now, this is where I get to my point about needing to pull in casual fans from the area. Green Bay isn't exactly a college hockey hot bed. As mentioned before, the Gamblers average 3700 per game. To me having it as close to 1 or 2 of the schools is the only way to draw fans. It's unfair competitively and it's certainly not ideal to have a building that's more than half empty, but that's likely what we have to deal with if we want it to be at a neutral site.

To the point of the regular season champion holding it, I personally, favor that. I know it's not going to happen in the first 4-5 years for sure though. I know there are logistical issue to it, but I think those are probably things that can be overcome. It's possible that could cause some serious issues with expenses rising like crazy (could you imagine the expense if one of the Alaska schools won the conference and you had to fly 3-4 full teams up to Alaska on a week's notice) and revenues plummet (again, traveling to Alaska is not going to happen for any casual fans). Also, you lose the ability to create a year after year following. Again, no perfect answer.

[bale31]

think bale31 is Minnesota State

Correct. I've posted on Rube Chat a bunch, but if it isn't about the Gophers, no one will respond anymore. It's pretty much Gopher talk and that it over there now. I still go there and get a few digs in, but am not nearly as active any longer.

[bale31]

That's the risk you take...I bet AA and Alaska might actually fill up their own barn, though. The question is, what happens when the home team is upset in the Thursday night game? I can recall the Subway 'Classic' in Grand Forks several years ago...I drove up for the Wayne State vs Findlay semi-final game figuring that since Sioux fans paid for those tickets as a package deal along with the Sioux game tickets, they would attend. Boy was I wrong. I would bet there were MAYBE 500 fans at REA for that game. An hour after that game ended, a crowd of 9,000-10,000 filed in for the Sioux game. Might be the same issue if a host school loses in the Thursday quarterfinals, but I guess you won't know unless you set it up that way, right?

At least the tickets would be sold.

[MafiaMan]

Correct. I've posted on Rube Chat a bunch, but if it isn't about the Gophers, no one will respond anymore. It's pretty much Gopher talk and that it over there now. I still go there and get a few digs in, but am not nearly as active any longer.

I've always enjoyed road trips from Bloomington to Mankato for the Sioux/Maverick series...really going to miss those.

[watchmaker49]

I think I didn't explain very clearly with that (hell it was 12:30 when I posted it). What I'm saying is that the closest school to Green Bay is NMU at 178 miles and goes up to 440 miles with Ferris of the schools mentioned. You're correct in that it is more centrally located. I don't dispute that. What I'm saying is that it makes more sense to hold it in a location that is close to at least one school (arbitrarily using 150 miles) and you have that with MSP (Kato) and Grand Rapids (Ferris). You also have large alumni bases in MSP (Kato and BSU) and to a lesser extent Grand Rapids (due to it's relative proximity to Detroit) in the MI schools.

Let's face it, these schools don't and probably won't ever travel very well. I'm an MSU fan (there you go watchmaker ) and I've been to about half of the current WCHA venues with MSU (MN, SCSU, UNO, Denver, UND, and will be going to CC next weekend) and the amount of fans there was beyond underwhelming. I would say that MN and SCSU had the most fans with about 100-200 and that's probably being generous. I think that it's going to be pretty difficult to go to a central point like Green Bay and have too many fans drive/fly to get there. It' just unrealistic. Now, this is where I get to my point about needing to pull in casual fans from the area. Green Bay isn't exactly a college hockey hot bed. As mentioned before, the Gamblers average 3700 per game. To me having it as close to 1 or 2 of the schools is the only way to draw fans. It's unfair competitively and it's certainly not ideal to have a building that's more than half empty, but that's likely what we have to deal with if we want it to be at a neutral site.

To the point of the regular season champion holding it, I personally, favor that. I know it's not going to happen in the first 4-5 years for sure though. I know there are logistical issue to it, but I think those are probably things that can be overcome. It's possible that could cause some serious issues with expenses rising like crazy (could you imagine the expense if one of the Alaska schools won the conference and you had to fly 3-4 full teams up to Alaska on a week's notice) and revenues plummet (again, traveling to Alaska is not going to happen for any casual fans). Also, you lose the ability to create a year after year following. Again, no perfect answer.

You make a fine argument bale. We were working on the idea of neutral sites. You were working on a way to get the most fans in the seats. I think you are right saying that it may not be fair but it is the best for the league to go with your idea. I have always wondered if their really are enough casual fans to matter no matter where you play. I think I would throw the idea of drawing the casual fan and have it where the team fans will fill the most seats. As you mentioned about fans traveling I think we are working off how well UND travels. We travel well but the other schools really don't. I like jodcon's idea of having both tourneys the same weekend in MSP. The Metro Chambers could sell it as a big hockey weekend. But that is usually the time of high school bb tournaments and they use the Target and the X for those. BB is the same weekend at the Target Center this year. Kind of shoots down the big event idea. bale and gfg are right to let it play out and see where it goes. We all have the same thought that we wish to see college hockey succeed. It is not like we want to see the WCHA fail. If Penn St. had not decided to start hockey, with how much prodding from Alvarez and BTN we do not know, we would not even be having half the discussions we are having. Of course things change over time. But college hockey had found a groove with the different leagues and Penn screwed it all up. bale you do understand why UND did what they did though? Simple case of the haves taking their pucks to a new rink. I still think the league would have been just fine without Wisc. and the rodents. We could have added Miami and WM to take their place and all would have been well. I think of I was a Mankato or Bemidji fan I would not be happy with what has happened. Both schools took a leap of faith going D1 with the belief they would be playing in the strongest league in the country and now get delegated to a lesser league. From the top to the bottom at these schools have every right to be pissed.

[MafiaMan]

I have always wondered if their really are enough casual fans to matter no matter where you play. I think I would throw the idea of drawing the casual fan and have it where the team fans will fill the most seats. As you mentioned about fans traveling I think we are working off how well UND travels. We travel well but the other schools really don't.

The answer is 'no.' If the WCHA tournament plays at the X, you will find maybe 500 fans in the TC area who will go just to watch hockey despite Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc. not being in the building. It's delusional to think 2,500 to 5,000 'casual' fans will show up to see teams they really have no vested interest in.

Same thing would go for Grand Forks. Would you stay home to watch the Sioux on TV in Denver at the NCHC tournament...or would you pay money to go to REA and watch Northern Michigan play Lake Superior State in the WCHA championship game?

[GFG]

The answer is 'no.' If the WCHA tournament plays at the X, you will find maybe 500 fans in the TC area who will go just to watch hockey despite Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc. not being in the building. It's delusional to think 2,500 to 5,000 'casual' fans will show up to see teams they really have no vested interest in.

Same thing would go for Grand Forks. Would you stay home to watch the Sioux on TV in Denver at the NCHC tournament...or would you pay money to go to REA and watch Northern Michigan play Lake Superior State in the WCHA championship game?

Exactly. Great comment.

[bale31]

You make a fine argument bale. We were working on the idea of neutral sites. You were working on a way to get the most fans in the seats. I think you are right saying that it may not be fair but it is the best for the league to go with your idea. I have always wondered if their really are enough casual fans to matter no matter where you play. I think I would throw the idea of drawing the casual fan and have it where the team fans will fill the most seats. As you mentioned about fans traveling I think we are working off how well UND travels. We travel well but the other schools really don't. I like jodcon's idea of having both tourneys the same weekend in MSP. The Metro Chambers could sell it as a big hockey weekend. But that is usually the time of high school bb tournaments and they use the Target and the X for those. BB is the same weekend at the Target Center this year. Kind of shoots down the big event idea. bale and gfg are right to let it play out and see where it goes. We all have the same thought that we wish to see college hockey succeed. It is not like we want to see the WCHA fail. If Penn St. had not decided to start hockey, with how much prodding from Alvarez and BTN we do not know, we would not even be having half the discussions we are having. Of course things change over time. But college hockey had found a groove with the different leagues and Penn screwed it all up. bale you do understand why UND did what they did though? Simple case of the haves taking their pucks to a new rink. I still think the league would have been just fine without Wisc. and the rodents. We could have added Miami and WM to take their place and all would have been well. I think of I was a Mankato or Bemidji fan I would not be happy with what has happened. Both schools took a leap of faith going D1 with the belief they would be playing in the strongest league in the country and now get delegated to a lesser league. From the top to the bottom at these schools have every right to be pissed.

Of course I understand why UND, Denver, et al did it. I question the wisdom of what they did though. I question the manner in which it was done. And I question whether the assumptions that are being made are legit. Troy Jutting made a pretty good comment when this was first happening. He said something to the effect that change is not necessarily bad. But, college hockey is as strong as it has ever been. With that being said, you can change things, but you damn well better make sure that you are making positive changes. I personally am not convinced that these changes are for the better of the sport. Neither the Big Ten formation nor the reaction in forming the NCHC. I look at those as two separate decision not necessarily as linked as you do. I understand the reasons given, I'm just not sure that I buy them.Only time will tell whether they were positive, negative or have no effect.

I will say that the whole change has changed my perspective of college hockey. To me college hockey was above the fray and people truly looked out for the good of the sport. I no longer give that thought any credence in any way. The Big Ten formed=all about the money. The WCHA was trying to take Miami and W Michigan=all about the money (not to mention that it would have left a quite a few schools in even worse shape than they are right now). The NCHC forming=all about the money. There isn't a single school in all of this that can claim they weren't looking selfishly at the situation (including MSU and BSU). I will say though, I feel really bad for BSU. They haven't received a cent from being in the WCHA tournament. This was supposed to be their last year on financial probation and next year they would have received cash from the WCHA tournament. Instead, they have put money into moving up, they've built a new arena, and now are having the carpet pulled out from under them. College hockey lost its innocence two summers ago and it became a selfish money grab. Whether that hurt the sport as a whole in the long run was of no consequence. This whole thing has been driven by short term financial motivators that sicken me. College hockey at this point is no different than college football and college basketball. If it means stepping all over everyone else, so be it. That's the direction that athletic directors and presidents are going.

From a competitive standpoint, I actually think this will be a good thing for MSU (and potentially BSU). MN is still agreeing to play us on a yearly basis. We get part of the receipts from the MN Cup and in the off year have the Gophers come to our barn for what is usually the biggest draw every season. We have a conference that we can win/compete in every year. We have other non-conference opponents close to us either within the state (SCSU, UMD) or very close by (UND, UNO) that we can pull from. Again, in my opinion, I think everyone is going to get a rude awakening that the NCHC isn't going to be the financial windfall that is expected and will need to set up away games that are close and inexpensive (UND being the exception because it's just a different circumstance). We're going to have a good non-conference schedule to keep us competitive nationally. I know I"m in the minority, but I think the WCHA will send at least 2 teams each year to the national tourney and we've got a chance to be one of those teams most years. Whether we can continue to be financially viable is the real question that all of the WCHA schools are going to have to find out.

[bale31]

The answer is 'no.' If the WCHA tournament plays at the X, you will find maybe 500 fans in the TC area who will go just to watch hockey despite Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc. not being in the building. It's delusional to think 2,500 to 5,000 'casual' fans will show up to see teams they really have no vested interest in.

Same thing would go for Grand Forks. Would you stay home to watch the Sioux on TV in Denver at the NCHC tournament...or would you pay money to go to REA and watch Northern Michigan play Lake Superior State in the WCHA championship game?

And that's why I think the idea of having the tourney in MSP and Grand Rapids makes more sense. We're not going to get casual fans. We need to find where the alumni are and stay as close to the student and season ticket holder locations as possible. That's what you need to draw from otherwise you're asking to have a 8000 seat arena drawing 1500 people rather than a 17,000 seat arena drawing 5000 people. It's just a question with no good answer.

[UNDBIZ]

I agree, they have a plan and hopefully it works out for them, if not they can look at options.

One thing that crossed my mind is if they could schedule their tourney (in St. Paul) in conjunction with the NCHC tourney it could be a plus for both tournaments, say have their semifinals earlier Saturday and play their Championship on Sunday, then the fanbases could bounce back and forth between the tournaments rather than playing at competing times, or playing their tournament a week earlier so the casual fan can take in some of both tournaments rather than having to choose certain games. Just a thought.

Hmm, I'd guess maybe 0.5% of the fans going to the tournament would be willing to shell out an extra $100 to go watch the games of another conference tournament that their team isn't in.

[jodcon]

Hmm, I'd guess maybe 0.5% of the fans going to the tournament would be willing to shell out an extra $100 to go watch the games of another conference tournament that their team isn't in.

Yeah that's probably a good point, unless you can walk-up and buy a ticket for a game or two nobody would go.

[MafiaMan]

I will say that the whole change has changed my perspective of college hockey. To me college hockey was above the fray and people truly looked out for the good of the sport. I no longer give that thought any credence in any way. The Big Ten formed=all about the money. The WCHA was trying to take Miami and W Michigan=all about the money (not to mention that it would have left a quite a few schools in even worse shape than they are right now). The NCHC forming=all about the money. There isn't a single school in all of this that can claim they weren't looking selfishly at the situation (including MSU and BSU). I will say though, I feel really bad for BSU. They haven't received a cent from being in the WCHA tournament. This was supposed to be their last year on financial probation and next year they would have received cash from the WCHA tournament. Instead, they have put money into moving up, they've built a new arena, and now are having the carpet pulled out from under them. College hockey lost its innocence two summers ago and it became a selfish money grab. Whether that hurt the sport as a whole in the long run was of no consequence. This whole thing has been driven by short term financial motivators that sicken me. College hockey at this point is no different than college football and college basketball. If it means stepping all over everyone else, so be it. That's the direction that athletic directors and presidents are going.

Your whole post above was excellent but this particular paragraph (and bolded sentences on top of that) I agree with X 1000.

[watchmaker49]

And that's why I think the idea of having the tourney in MSP and Grand Rapids makes more sense. We're not going to get casual fans. We need to find where the alumni are and stay as close to the student and season ticket holder locations as possible. That's what you need to draw from otherwise you're asking to have a 8000 seat arena drawing 1500 people rather than a 17,000 seat arena drawing 5000 people. It's just a question with no good answer.

bale, I think we are all on the same page. We were just laying out different scenarios trying to get to the same common ground. You nailed a lot of things right on the head. We always thought, as you said, that hockey was above the fray. But alas we found that it is no better than the rest. Can we make bale an honorary UND fan?

[bale31]

bale, I think we are all on the same page. We were just laying out different scenarios trying to get to the same common ground. You nailed a lot of things right on the head. We always thought, as you said, that hockey was above the fray. But alas we found that it is no better than the rest. Can we make bale an honorary UND fan?

Better question...would I accept?

[watchmaker49]

Better question...would I accept?

What? You would turn down such an honor?

[bale31]

What? You would turn down such an honor?

Depending on which day you catch me, I'm still bitter about the conference shakeup and alternate the blame between WI, PSU, Denver and UND. If you want another self-loathing fan I guess I'd be a good fit. Oh yeah, and if you don't mind me not hating the Gophers with every ounce of my being, I might be OK.

[runaroundsioux]

Depending on which day you catch me, I'm still bitter about the conference shakeup and alternate the blame between WI, PSU, Denver and UND. If you want another self-loathing fan I guess I'd be a good fit. Oh yeah, and if you don't mind me not hating the Gophers with every ounce of my being, I might be OK.

Sorry,automatic disqualification.

[watchmaker49]

Depending on which day you catch me, I'm still bitter about the conference shakeup and alternate the blame between WI, PSU, Denver and UND. If you want another self-loathing fan I guess I'd be a good fit. Oh yeah, and if you don't mind me not hating the Gophers with every ounce of my being, I might be OK.

A question for you. Just how much attention does Mankato pay to the hockey team? Do the students support it? Does the town support it?

[MafiaMan]

This alone makes you a perfect fit.

You mis-read bale31's double-negative. Don't mind him NOT hating the Gophers...which means he's OK with them.

Sorry, bale31, I vote black ball.

[watchmaker49]

Depending on which day you catch me, I'm still bitter about the conference shakeup and alternate the blame between WI, PSU, Denver and UND. If you want another self-loathing fan I guess I'd be a good fit. Oh yeah, and if you don't mind me not hating the Gophers with every ounce of my being, I might be OK.

How can you not ? A case of Stockholm Syndrome maybe?

[watchmaker49]

You mis-read bale31's double-negative. Don't mind him NOT hating the Gophers...which means he's OK with them.

Sorry, bale31, I vote black ball.

I know that is why I deleted it,

[watchmaker49]

Depending on which day you catch me, I'm still bitter about the conference shakeup and alternate the blame between WI, PSU, Denver and UND. If you want another self-loathing fan I guess I'd be a good fit. Oh yeah, and if you don't mind me not hating the Gophers with every ounce of my being, I might be OK.

I rescind my offer.

[MafiaMan]

I know that is why I deleted it,

LOL...I was a step ahead of you I guess!

A friend of mine once asked me 'you've lived here for 20 years...can't you even like the Gophers as a second-favorite team by now?'

My reply: "If they reunited the 1980 Soviet Olympic team and had them play a game against the current Gophers, I'd buy a ticket to the game at Mariucci, wear my red CCCP jersey, and cheer as loud as I could for those commie bastards. THAT'S how much I hate Minnesota."

[watchmaker49]

LOL...I was a step ahead of you I guess!

A baby one. LOL