Fire Muss

[Oxbow6]

I'll go back to Muss's HC "resume" over his 6 years here...anyone in a leadership position in any other job/career who gets compensated based on performance and results would have been let go at this point. He is not close to being a quality HC of a FCS program...plain and simple.

[Oxbow6]

What drives the athletic dept. in your revenue generating sports that suppliments all the other non-revenue sports is butts in the seats. Look statistically at the attendance #'s since Muss has taken over as HC. Faison isn't stupid...at least I hope not.

[Sioux_FF]

This is a good description of how you feel - don't agree, but I understand. However, your only solution to the mess we are in is "It's Faison's job to come up with the answers". Are you happy with the state of the once proud Sioux football team? How long should we continue to dig this hole? Many of us are worried about a 10 year black hole for the football team. We are very frustrated with the progress so far. I'd love to hear your ideas for improvement.

I'll take a stab at that. Sports can be cyclical. Ups and downs. Nobody stays great forever, usually nobody stays awful forever. (Goph's beat Nebraska on Saturday!) Clearly right now, we're down. Losing Lennon and much of the staff early in the transition was crippling in a lot of ways. People say that's an excuse, but it's a fact. Clearly UND hasn't thrown money at Mussman to build an experienced staff. So, we have probably the most "green" staff I can remember right now.

The best thing about rookie coordinators is they become second year coordinators. The best thing about Freshman qb's, is they become sophomores. Last year was actually better than I expected it to be, largely due to getting a solid QB transfer along with a 5th year senior who was finally ready for the job. It naurally raised our expectations for this year. I never expected us to be dominant in the Big Sky in the first few years. I expected us to take our lumps. I'm as impatient as any Sioux football fan out there, but I don't think we match up well yet with the top third of the BSC in terms of overall talent, strength, depth, coaching staff knowledge, experience or funding. I think all those factors go into it, not simply the head coaching. I still look at it as a learning process, for the players, staff, head coach and administration.

I think it's a complex situation, and the simplistic solution that the coach has to be fired is not the best answer. You're solution appears to be we need to blow it up and start over. That's kind of what happened when Lennon left. But, I just don't think the answer is going the Tea Party route...................We're mad, we don't like something, so we've got to blow it all up. If we end up doing that you will see the proverbial 10 year black hole of UND football. You may think we'd be digging our way out of the hole, but it will just be a different deep hole.

I don't personally know any of the staff. There are 3 assistants with ties to the strong UND football past, and a head coach who was a great coordinator himself, that hasn't been handed the best circumstances. I know people don't want to hear the "P" word, but I still think the benefits of a little more Patience will have us better off in 2 years than blowing up the staff this winter will. Just my honest difference of opinion from following the program for a long time.

[CMSioux]

If we can keep this civil I'll chime in. I don't think they are going to hold attendance against this staff - the schedule was less than appealing during the transitional years - Lamar, Southern Oregon.... once people leave they find something else to fill their Saturdays with. There is also the fact that Grand Forks is a hockey town and anything else comes in second. The proof is in annually selling out an exhibition game with Manitoba.

Some expected that attendance would pick up with the Big Sky and winning will put butts in the seat, then again you could also say that they might never sell 11,000 tickets consistently in this town, for numerous reasons we would all list.

In the final years of the NCC I do remember going to games that had conference championship and play off implications that weren't sold out - so it might just be what it is.

[UND-FB-FAN]

Comes down to whether or not you think 6 years is a large enough sample size.

If you do, then your view is likely that Mussman has to go. He has a losing record, no signature wins against top 10 programs, and several bad loses (Sioux Falls, Idaho, Montana schools, etc.).

If you honestly expected UND to struggle through the transition and the first couple years of conference play, regardless of the head coach, then I commend you on your accurate predications and I believe you likely want to wait and see how Mussman does next season.

Regardless of your views, the attendance and season record indicate this is a low point for UND football. What needs to be done will obviously be decided Faison and not us. With that said, we can voice our opinions. Recruits do look at this site, but ultimately winning is more of a priority to any recruit than fan forum content.

As far as attendance goes, consistently having 11,000 should be the goal. It is practical and still provides a quality atmosphere. To achieve this, however, UND at the very least needs to be competitive against conference opponents at home. Losing by over 30 points to the same opponents you're going to see year after year is unacceptable and will always deter attendance.

[UND-FB-FAN]

If we can keep this civil I'll chime in. I don't think they are going to hold attendance against this staff - the schedule was less than appealing during the transitional years - Lamar, Southern Oregon.... once people leave they find something else to fill their Saturdays with. There is also the fact that Grand Forks is a hockey town and anything else comes in second.

I respectfully disagree about the attendance issue via scheduling. Although scheduling was a problem during the transition, attendance was somewhat revived at the beginning of this season. The SDSU and Montana games were well attended (over 10,000 and almost 10,000, respectively) and I truthfully believe the attendance would've remained in that area, if not increased, had the team competed and/or won. Losing, especially through home blowouts, is hard to watch and it causes an attendance hit. If UND wins and competes for/in the playoffs, UND football attendance will be around 11,000. This year's early attendance numbers indicate that.

[Oxbow6]

So my question for CMSioux, 82SiouxGuy and Sioux_FF is how many games have each of you seen in person since Muss has taken over as HC? You three seem to all be of the similar opinion on this issue so I'm curious as to as how much you all have really witnessed live over the past 6 years.

[UND-FB-FAN]

I think it's a complex situation, and the simplistic solution that the coach has to be fired is not the best answer. You're solution appears to be we need to blow it up and start over. That's kind of what happened when Lennon left. But, I just don't think the answer is going the Tea Party route...................We're mad, we don't like something, so we've got to blow it all up. If we end up doing that you will see the proverbial 10 year black hole.

This is a complex situation, but it's not like college football coaches are never fired if their teams don't perform after a period of time. Actually, it happens all the time.

South Dakota fired their coach after their final transition year, and although they suffered through the first year of the new staff, they now appear to be steadily improving and putting together a nice 2nd season with that staff.

My point is that bringing in a new staff is not unique, it's actually very common in college football if the team doesn't perform, and it can lead to fairly immediate success down the road.

Also, I don't feel Lennon leaving is the definition of a "blowup". Lennon left and the majority of his former staff took over. In fact, his offensive coordinator (who had never been a college head coach) simply replaced him. Because I used precedence in the previous example, I will also state here that it is not overly uncommon for coordinators to be promoted in college football when the former head coach moves on. With that being said, UND football has not had a "staff blowup" in quite some time, because Lennon leaving was not that.

[CMSioux]

So my question for CMSioux, 82SiouxGuy and Sioux_FF is how many games have each of you seen in person since Muss has taken over as HC? You three seem to all be of the similar opinion on this issue so I'm curious as to as how much you all have really witnessed live over the past 6 years.

All of them.- don't bash me for my loyalty.

[Sioux_FF]

So my question for CMSioux, 82SiouxGuy and Sioux_FF is how many games have each of you seen in person since Muss has taken over as HC? You three seem to all be of the similar opinion on this issue so I'm curious as to as how much you all have really witnessed live over the past 6 years.

Everyone of them.......

[Oxbow6]

All of them.- don't bash me for my loyalty.

Wow...you are little on edge today. Just jack down some.

Much can be seen, although through different eyes and perspective, as to how Muss conducts himself and reacts to situations during a game that can't be evaluated unless you see it live. I guess I see things vastly different than you and Sioux_FF.

[82SiouxGuy]

So my question for CMSioux, 82SiouxGuy and Sioux_FF is how many games have each of you seen in person since Muss has taken over as HC? You three seem to all be of the similar opinion on this issue so I'm curious as to as how much you all have really witnessed live over the past 6 years.

I have season tickets and have missed 2 or 3 home games since Muss took over. As a matter of fact, I have had season tickets since they moved into the Alerus Center. And I have been attending UND games since the 1970's. The only significant game I remember missing in the past several years is the South Dakota game 2 years ago when UND came from behind to win.

UND hired a coach with no head coaching experience. That may or may not have been a good decision. It normally takes time for the coach to learn how to be the head coach. My favorite example is Bill Belichick. People thought he couldn't be a head coach after his experience in Cleveland. How's he done since then? Same with Pete Carroll. His early experience as a head coach was not good, but he has done OK since then. It often takes several years to learn the position and it takes patience. Fans are not usually in a good position to know whether the coach is actually learning and improving. Athletic Directors are in a better position because they work with the coach on a regular basis. Fans don't have the interaction and are just watching from a distance. Fans also don't get to see what happens behind closed doors or in practice every day. That's why I trust the AD's decisions, especially when I have watched the AD make plenty of other good decisions.

UND has had several other factors that have made things difficult, some factors that many refuse to acknowledge. The talent level on the team was down when Lennon left. Recruiting was made more difficult through the transition because of the nickname debate and the threat of not getting into a conference. Dale Lennon said that the debate was affecting recruits that he talked to. Others reported the same thing. Yet, some on this board have said that it shouldn't have affected recruiting. The vote that decided the issue was held just over 16 months ago. Was it any coincidence that the best recruiting classes appear to have come during the past 2 years when UND seemed to have found a conference home and the nickname debate was settled?

Having the SU's almost through transition as UND and USD were just starting gave the SU's a leg up on recruiting. Their success has helped them maintain that advantage. That advantage has been more apparent in the traditional recruiting area in this region. That takes time to overcome. Getting highly recruited guys like Mollberg tell me that UND has made progress in this area.

I have been disappointed in the results this year also. I was not surprised by losing to SDSU, the Montana schools and Eastern Washington. I thought that there was a decent chance to win 1 or 2 of those, but felt that UND was probably going to be underdogs in all of them. I feel that UND had enough talent on the field to beat SDSU and EWU. They just made too many mistakes and took too many penalties. Those issues can often be corrected, although it usually doesn't happen overnight. The defense has made progress through the season. The tackling has improved and they are allowing fewer big plays. The problem has now become the lack of offense. It has been a major factor in losing the past 3 games. That and some big mistakes on special teams like the punt team issues this week and fumbling punt returns.

At this point I will not be surprised if Mussman is fired, or if he stays. And I will support either decision if Faison has good reasons for his decision. We are discussing a game, played by college athletes. This isn't life or death. Winning is important, but it isn't the only thing. Running a good program and graduating quality student-athletes should be the first goal of the program. Winning and representing the University well are next. Fans and butts in seats are after that. Those are the areas that I think Faison will use to make his decision.

I agree with CMSioux, I don't think that the constant negativity adds anything to the team and that it can be detrimental. Discussing actual issues like missing tackles, lack of blocking, mental mistakes, etc. is one thing. Demanding that coaches be fired after the 3rd game of the season is something completely different. The only time I would support something like that is if there are other issues that need to be dealt with like off field issues or conduct detrimental to the school. This has not been a problem with Mussman. That is why I have not been part of the lynching party that has taken place on these forums the past several months.

[darell1976]

Question for everyone...IF Muss stays and UND upsets FBS San Jose St on August 30th...will all be forgotten at least up til that point or do we still want him replaced?

[CMSioux]

I think the difference in opinion is driven by a difference in priorities.

Is it a priority that UND field a quality football team -yes

Is it a priority that UND becomes competitive in the Big Sky - which means vying for the championship annually in future years - yes

Is it a priority that the program graduates its student athletes - yes

Is it a priority that the program have a high standard for the off-field conduct of its student athletes - yes

Is charactor important when it comes to recruiting student athletes for UND - yes

Is going 11-0 or 10-1 more important than any of the above - no

[geaux_sioux]

Ok, putting on my extreme Zen like patience hat, I would say that getting rid of this years group of seniors will be a positive. Same thing with next years group of seniors. They came into the program when things weren't being done right and had terrible senior role models. They also lack the talent and leadership needed for greatness. So really to see what Mussman is capable of would take til 2015. That season he would have a junior QB and tons of upper classmen with Telnet and a load of experience. The question is would it be worth the wait? Would he be able to put together two more really good classes like the last two? Would the defense continue to improve and would the offense turn around and find a running game? These questions are impossible to know the answer to, Faison has a lot to consider.

[kingranch]

my thought on this is you as fans take money out of youre pockets every other weekend to see a winning football team, it can be a lot of money to some people, two kids, tailgating, food at the game etc. etc. adds up to 200$ or more for me. So if you go to toasted frog or another swank restaurant and get !@#!$ service or food are you just sit back and take it or are you going to bitch about the cook or waitress to the manager. this is essentialy the exact same thing. these people are not performing their jobs to the expectations of their customers.

[kingranch]

some people eat the !@#!$ food put up with the bad wait staff, that is called enabling a terrible service.

[82SiouxGuy]

I think the difference in opinion is driven by a difference in priorities.

Is it a priority that UND field a quality football team -yes

Is it a priority that UND becomes competitive in the Big Sky - which means vying for the championship annually in future years - yes

Is it a priority that the program graduates its student athletes - yes

Is it a priority that the program have a high standard for the off-field conduct of its student athletes - yes

Is charactor important when it comes to recruiting student athletes for UND - yes

Is going 11-0 or 10-1 more important than any of the above - no

I think you can add that by becoming a contender for Big Sky championships annually the team would also become a contender for a national championship on a regular basis. I believe that this is also a priority for the program.

[jdub27]

my thought on this is you as fans take money out of youre pockets every other weekend to see a winning football team, it can be a lot of money to some people, two kids, tailgating, food at the game etc. etc. adds up to 200$ or more for me. So if you go to toasted frog or another swank restaurant and get !@#!$ service or food are you just sit back and take it or are you going to bitch about the cook or waitress to the manager. this is essentialy the exact same thing. these people are not performing their jobs to the expectations of their customers.

Still trying to pose as a UND fan?

[82SiouxGuy]

my thought on this is you as fans take money out of youre pockets every other weekend to see a winning football team, it can be a lot of money to some people, two kids, tailgating, food at the game etc. etc. adds up to 200$ or more for me. So if you go to toasted frog or another swank restaurant and get !@#!$ service or food are you just sit back and take it or are you going to bitch about the cook or waitress to the manager. this is essentialy the exact same thing. these people are not performing their jobs to the expectations of their customers.

Bitching about things doesn't get you as far as being polite and giving honest feedback. If you walked into a nice restaurant and started bitching or demanding that the cook gets fired you aren't going to get nearly the same reaction from management as if you politely asked to talk with the manager and explained what was wrong. You are more likely to have someone spit in your drink or your food if you take that attitude. "Bitching" about "!@#!$" is not a good way to handle problems.

[UND92,96]

While it's admittedly a moot point, it's still kind of interesting to look back about how things transpired which ultimately paved the way for Muss to be something of the "last man standing" when Lennon left. What if it would have been Muss, rather than Bubba, whom UMD hired after the 2003 season? Both were finalists. And what about MSU-Mankato? I think many forget that had they acted a bit sooner, Muss very possibly could have ended up there after the 2007 season: http://mankatofreepr...er-than-Mussman And of course, had Lennon left a few years earlier, which he had the chance to do, would Tibesar have been promoted before he had the chance to leave for Kansas St.?

[darell1976]

While it's admittedly a moot point, it's interesting sometimes to think back about how things happened which ultimately paved the way for Muss to be something of the "last man standing" when Lennon left. What if it would have been Muss, rather than Bubba, whom UMD hired after the 2003 season? Both were finalists. And what about MSU-Mankato? I think many forget that had they acted a bit sooner, Muss very possibly could have ended up there after the 2007 season: http://mankatofreepr...er-than-Mussman And of course, had Lennon left a few years earlier, which he had the chance to do, would Tibesar have been promoted before he had the chance to leave for Kansas St.?

And if we would have moved up with everyone else we could possibly been on par with the SU's.

[kingranch]

Still trying to pose as a UND fan?

I said you as fans, not we as fans.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Just Win Baby! Its that simple...it will produce the recruits, the goodwill, and the butts in the seats...Give us a head coach who can win and this topic is closed. Mussman is scratching .500 after 6 years = not winning. He has to go or you will have a hard time competing with Women's volleyball for # of fans at the game - note, not a cut on the WVB, but a reminder to the FB crowd what it means to satisfy your customer - I am one of those customers and I'm not very happy with having a great tailgate and then having to throw-up at half time based on the performance. Happiness is good tailgating complimented with a good ass kicking of the other team on the field - let's try more of that recipe going forward!

Lastly, any mention of the football team's problems relating to mens hockey is pure and total BS - no data, all heresay - quit using the crutch and face up to the music. As for the nickname, the bigger issue was not having a conference to go into nearing the transition in my opinion, but flame away if need be.

BobIwabuchiFan

[UND-FB-FAN]

I'm just going to answer my own proposed question. Everyone offers valid points about patience, limiting or eliminating negative comments, the transition and nickname issues, this year'a young team, etc. However, I feel the bottom line is the W-L record Mussman has. Having a losing record after 6 years is concerning, no matter how you spin it. I've had serious question marks since 2011, and since then they haven't been answered. Whether you preach patience or not, the athletic department can only survive so many 6,000-person attended games. That is the outlook of UND football if winning doesn't become the norm. The Northern Colorado be will around that 6,000 (maybe lower), so it comes down to whether or not Faison believes the threshold has been crossed after this season and if the athletic department can afford more potential 6000 attendance games next season. A coaching change could be the stimulus this program needs to get butts back in the seat and hopefully produce a winning culture. For the last 6 years, since Lennon left, and yes, we entered the transition, UND football has possessed a mediocre culture in terms of winning. And, the two Big Sky years have been more of a losing culture than anything else.