UND and the Changing Landscape of College Hockey

[PhillySioux]

Based on several conversations I've had with a very high-up in NDSU's athletic department, a Bison hockey team is a non-starter.

And I truly hope MSU-M starts a hockey program. I'd really like to see 70+ DI teams instead of the 58 we now encompass. I don't think that is attainable, but I'd settle for 64. Eight 8-team conferences would be ideal, with 8 at-large bids into the playoff.

I worry about the NCAA dropping the hockey playoff back to 12 teams, and if the off-campus regional sites continue to stink it up at the box office, that may happen sooner than later. All this NIMBY talk about conferences and new, weak teams could lead to catastrophic results.

My concern with MSUM is their history. I've lived in FM most of my life and I have seen nothing from the MSUM Admin, Faculty, Student Body or Alumni that would make me think they can be an asset to college hockey or the WCHA.

[mksioux]

Moorhead St Reaches out to WCHA

I cant bear the thought of this.

Good Gawd. Moorhead has no business fielding a DII football program, let alone a DI hockey program. There is no support at the university, in the community, or amongst the alumni for Moorhead State athletics. Never has been, never will be.

I actually hope Moorhead goes for it and gets into the WCHA. That may be the impetus needed for UND and Denver to get the hell out.

[CAS4127]

So you actually like hockey, even though you would claim to disavow funding NDSU athletics if they ever went ahead on even began studying adding hockey? That's real open minded. Guess if you had been at Wisconsin in 1970 you would have been vehemently opposed then and there too?

Sans a few of them, I just like sports in general, especially college. As for NDSU & hockey, my position is that it would hurt the existing sports that are otherwise doing relatively well. Look what has happened at SCSU and UNO for examples, and which are more comparable to NDSU then Wisky. I also think NDSU hockey would "divide" the existing fanbase to some extent, the result of all of which would be negative for NDSU in general--not unlike the nickname issue at UND.

[mikejm]

Good Gawd. Moorhead has no business fielding a DII football program, let alone a DI hockey program. There is no support at the university, in the community, or amongst the alumni for Moorhead State athletics. Never has been, never will be.

Whether or not they have any business doing so, they do have a pretty big sugar daddy in line to help fund a hockey program.

[CAS4127]

Good Gawd. Moorhead has no business fielding a DII football program, let alone a DI hockey program. There is no support at the university, in the community, or amongst the alumni for Moorhead State athletics. Never has been, never will be.

I actually hope Moorhead goes for it and gets into the WCHA. That may be the impetus needed for UND and Denver to get the hell out.

I could actually see this happening at MSUM. I would also predict the ensuing demise of FB and wrestling there. I think Fargo-Moorhead, or, in this case, Moorhead-Fargo, might actually support a D1 hockey program better then SCSU, UNO or MSU-Mankato.

[darell1976]

Good Gawd. Moorhead has no business fielding a DII football program, let alone a DI hockey program. There is no support at the university, in the community, or amongst the alumni for Moorhead State athletics. Never has been, never will be.

I actually hope Moorhead goes for it and gets into the WCHA. That may be the impetus needed for UND and Denver to get the hell out.

I think there is more fan support at Concordia than at Moorhead State.

[mikejm]

I actually hope Moorhead goes for it and gets into the WCHA. That may be the impetus needed for UND and Denver to get the hell out.

This is incredibly short-sighted. UND is a legitimate college hockey powerhouse, among a handful of programs that can probably be counted on to be among the top five each and every year. That being said, UND is a big fish in a teeny, tiny little pond.

What you continually suggest is that UND take its ball (or in this case, puck) and go start a new conference somewhere. That's fine, and almost understandable. But what happens to the rest of the WCHA? The Fighting Sioux fill barns throughout the conference. You saw what Sioux fans did at the Final Five. People were suggesting the X would be a ghost town without the Gophers and/or Badgers. Officials have been quoted as saying they actually had 100+ MORE people through the turnstiles every session than last year, and most of the crowd was demonstrably Sioux fans.

So you leave the WCHA to start your own gig and watch half of the remaining teams turn belly up?

Say four WCHA teams fail. That takes us from 58 down to 54. And let's assume a couple CCHA teams fold as a result of the BTHC. Now we're down to 52 Division I teams. Once that ripple starts washing its way across college hockey, what do you think is going to happen? Do you honestly believe some university administrators are going to look at THAT landscape and decide to invest the millions of dollars it takes to establish a new program? No way.

College hockey is already operating a 16-team championship tournament under a sort of "wink-wink" deal with the NCAA; normally they want 60 teams to support that big of a playoff structure. You want to go back to 12? When I was a UND student, the hockey playoff was a four team deal. Is that what you want to see?

Fighting Sioux hockey has been a supporter of start-up and fledgling hockey programs since its beginning. "We" played Bemidji as it moved from DII to DI, and look what that program has turned out to be. We played Mankato while they were an independent after working their way up from DIII to DII to DI.

I've watched DI college hockey continue to contract, and I don't like that trend at all. I don't really believe the BTHC is about "growing the sport", but I am willing to at least look the other way while those schools go off on their own. I do not want to sit idly by while the sport dwindles further.

This is the time to look at the big picture; time to ensure there is a future for college hockey. What good is being that big fish if the pond you are in is drying up? You ever see what happens to a fish caught in a tidal pool? They don't last long.

[WYOBISONMAN]

I think there is more fan support at Concordia than at Moorhead State.

I am not sure Moorhead ought to try and field anything athleticly related.

[siouxkid12]

I don't know if this has been posted or not but here is a good article explaining why the Big Ten is going to be awful for college hockey.My link

When you read it you will find out some interesting facts about Michigan and Wisconsin and how they LOSE MONEY on college hockey.

[CAS4127]

I don't know if this has been posted or not but here is a good article explaining why the Big Ten is going to be awful for college hockey.My link

When you read it you will find out some interesting facts about Michigan and Wisconsin and how they LOSE MONEY on college hockey.

Link--interesting read! Does anyone know whether the NCAA makes any money on hockey, in general, and or the tournament specifically?

[ScottM]

Link--interesting read! Does anyone know whether the NCAA makes any money on hockey, in general, and or the tournament specifically?

I believe the men's hockey tourney is only behind men's bouncyball in revenue generated for the NC$$. So, I can never fathom why ESPN would broadcast women's bouncyball in prime time ...

[yzerman19]

I believe the men's hockey tourney is only behind men's bouncyball in revenue generated for the NC$$. So, I can never fathom why ESPN would broadcast women's bouncyball in prime time ...

Football is 1, Basketball is 2...hockey is wayyyyy down the list. Only in a few markets does it encroach on those top 2.

[ScottM]

Football is 1, Basketball is 2...hockey is wayyyyy down the list. Only in a few markets does it encroach on those top 2.

I was talking about NC$$ tourney dollars only. IIRC the NC$$ gets nothing from the BCS.

[yzerman19]

I was talking about NC$$ tourney dollars only. IIRC the NC$$ gets nothing from the BCS.

I have no idea about tourney only. I was thinking total rev.

[CAS4127]

I guess I should have more specifically stated what I was getting at: Does the NCAA make any money from D1 Hockey, meaning NET; that is, revenues minus expenditures? We know it makes (Nets) money from FB and men's BB, but what about men's hockey?

[SiouxMD]

I guess I should have more specifically stated what I was getting at: Does the NCAA make any money from D1 Hockey, meaning NET; that is, revenues minus expenditures? We know it makes (Nets) money from FB and men's BB, but what about men's hockey?

This article is old (2002?) but it would seem to answer your question...

Frozen Four turns cool profit for NCAA - www.espn.com

[Ranger]

This is incredibly short-sighted. UND is a legitimate college hockey powerhouse, among a handful of programs that can probably be counted on to be among the top five each and every year. That being said, UND is a big fish in a teeny, tiny little pond.

What you continually suggest is that UND take its ball (or in this case, puck) and go start a new conference somewhere. That's fine, and almost understandable. But what happens to the rest of the WCHA? The Fighting Sioux fill barns throughout the conference. You saw what Sioux fans did at the Final Five. People were suggesting the X would be a ghost town without the Gophers and/or Badgers. Officials have been quoted as saying they actually had 100+ MORE people through the turnstiles every session than last year, and most of the crowd was demonstrably Sioux fans.

So you leave the WCHA to start your own gig and watch half of the remaining teams turn belly up?

Say four WCHA teams fail. That takes us from 58 down to 54. And let's assume a couple CCHA teams fold as a result of the BTHC. Now we're down to 52 Division I teams. Once that ripple starts washing its way across college hockey, what do you think is going to happen? Do you honestly believe some university administrators are going to look at THAT landscape and decide to invest the millions of dollars it takes to establish a new program? No way.

College hockey is already operating a 16-team championship tournament under a sort of "wink-wink" deal with the NCAA; normally they want 60 teams to support that big of a playoff structure. You want to go back to 12? When I was a UND student, the hockey playoff was a four team deal. Is that what you want to see?

Fighting Sioux hockey has been a supporter of start-up and fledgling hockey programs since its beginning. "We" played Bemidji as it moved from DII to DI, and look what that program has turned out to be. We played Mankato while they were an independent after working their way up from DIII to DII to DI.

I've watched DI college hockey continue to contract, and I don't like that trend at all. I don't really believe the BTHC is about "growing the sport", but I am willing to at least look the other way while those schools go off on their own. I do not want to sit idly by while the sport dwindles further.

This is the time to look at the big picture; time to ensure there is a future for college hockey. What good is being that big fish if the pond you are in is drying up? You ever see what happens to a fish caught in a tidal pool? They don't last long.

I'm not buying the idea that UND is obligated to be the savior of college hockey.... if anything, the BTHC needs to step up and support the small schools that they just slammed the door on. UND needs to support the process to an extent, yet, it also needs to look out for its own interests. If that means bailing for a mid-western oriented conference, then so be it.

[darell1976]

I don't know if this has been posted or not but here is a good article explaining why the Big Ten is going to be awful for college hockey.My link

When you read it you will find out some interesting facts about Michigan and Wisconsin and how they LOSE MONEY on college hockey.

Michigan: -$44,000

Michigan State: -$429,000

Ohio State University: -$2.5 million HOLY CRAP!!!

Wisconsin: -$925,000

Minnesota: $3.5 million

Yep that BTHC is surely the money maker.

[The Sicatoka]

I don't know if this has been posted or not but here is a good article explaining why the Big Ten is going to be awful for college hockey.My link

When you read it you will find out some interesting facts about Michigan and Wisconsin and how they LOSE MONEY on college hockey.

From same linked article:

... all the college hockey programs that made money last year (UAH, UAF, CC, Yale, Maine, BU, UML, Northeastern, LSSU, Michigan Tech, MSUM, U of MN, UMD, SCSU, UNO, Clarkson, Colgate, Cornell, RIT, Union, UND, Bowling Green, Vermont), ...

I'm somewhat surprised by who is not on that "made money" list.

[mikejm]

I'm not buying the idea that UND is obligated to be the savior of college hockey.... if anything, the BTHC needs to step up and support the small schools that they just slammed the door on. UND needs to support the process to an extent, yet, it also needs to look out for its own interests. If that means bailing for a mid-western oriented conference, then so be it.

Just keep keeping that attitude. When college hockey is down to 40 DI schools ask yourself 'what happened?'

I can't believe how myopic so many people are.

[Ranger]

Just keep keeping that attitude. When college hockey is down to 40 DI schools ask yourself 'what happened?'

I can't believe how myopic so many people are.

I can't believe how omnipotent some people think they are.

[mikejm]

I can't believe how omnipotent some people think they are.

I am not omnipotent.

Just really, really smart.

[Ranger]

I am not omnipotent.

Just really, really smart.

um. ok.

[yzerman19]

Call me myopic or call me insensitive or even an elitist, but I don't really care about the good of the sport, nor do I care about how many NCAA tournament bids there are: 12 instead of 16? Big deal...

I care about Sioux hockey. As my friends who don't follow hockey have been saying for years "who's in the tourney this year? MN, UND, BU, BC, New Hampshire, Maine, Michigan?" Most years he's batting .750.

Big programs in niche markets dominate the game.

[Hawkster]

Last I heard, Moorhead was running a rather stiff deficit and was cutting programs to the bone. I rather doubt they can come up with the $15 million they are rumored to be needing to start a hockey program.

The earlier reports I saw indicated this whole MSUM hockey thing was being pushed by the owners of the UP to try and make money for their arena. I see failure written all over it. Kinda like Bison athletics.