darell1976 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 With the profit problems of the Alerus..could the city of GF beg UND to host some basketball games there to try to lure more people in? Or would The Ralph "outbid" that option. IMO the Alerus was built at the wrong time. If it was built in the 1980's there was little competition (no Fargodome, no New REA, no new arena in Winnipeg so concerts would have possibly skipped Fargo and went to Grand Forks but now with the new REA, Fargodome, and a new arena built in Winnipeg there is a lot of competition to get big acts to play at the Alerus and to turn a profit. I just don't see the AC getting into the black unless we start hosting big name football teams, FCS playoffs, maybe get NDSU in bball and big name concerts. Anyone else with ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreSiouxForYou Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 With the profit problems of the Alerus..could the city of GF beg UND to host some basketball games there to try to lure more people in? Or would The Ralph "outbid" that option. IMO the Alerus was built at the wrong time. If it was built in the 1980's there was little competition (no Fargodome, no New REA, no new arena in Winnipeg so concerts would have possibly skipped Fargo and went to Grand Forks but now with the new REA, Fargodome, and a new arena built in Winnipeg there is a lot of competition to get big acts to play at the Alerus and to turn a profit. I just don't see the AC getting into the black unless we start hosting big name football teams, FCS playoffs, maybe get NDSU in bball and big name concerts. Anyone else with ideas? The Fargodome was opened 9 years before the Alerus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 A lot of things worked against the Alerus. There past management was suspect. The economy generally has not been good. And one of the main reasons was that the Ralph and the new Winnipeg arena were built after the Alerus was built. Those 2 venues have taken a lot of potentially nice money makers away from them. I think they will get it turned around with prudent management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 If the Canad Inn, water park, and entertainment center had not been built, think of how large the deficits would have been! Until the hotel was built, the convention business was poor. To make the Alerus more successful requires more "activities" to be around around it. IMHO, it would have made tremendous sense to build the new wellness center there as well as a new library. Adding those type amenities around it makes the Alerus even more attractive to restaurants, making the Alerus more attractive to conventions, which in turn make it more attractive to hotels, which in turn make it more attractive to concerts. In Regina, Saskatchewan, the is talk a building a retractable roof stadium. But the economics just don't make sense, unless the project is even "bigger": Instead of writing off the stadium project as too big, what if we start thinking even bigger? Private land developers and construction companies would salivate at developing a whole new downtown community on the site. (Call the new development "Taylor Field." Name the streets after Rider greats. How about Piffles Avenue?) It would certainly qualify for P3 funding, meaning access to more federal dollars for the project through another avenue. Think bigger on Regina Dome plan Cities rarely ever have truly profitable stadiums or arenas (when the capital cost is included). However, if the plan includes area development that encompasses much more than the stadium, the net increase in taxable values and taxes can result in much higher benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreSiouxForYou Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Can some one tell me how the site was selected? Not being from GF and not knowing a lot of the process that went into the arena i am just curious. I get why they wanted it there for crowd movement but it just seems too far out of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Can some one tell me how the site was selected? Not being from GF and not knowing a lot of the process that went into the arena i am just curious. I get why they wanted it there for crowd movement but it just seems too far out of the way. Here's a link: Alerus Center History An 80's vote for a downtown arena was defeated. An early 90's vote for a site near Columbia Mall was defeated. Both of those sites had detractors (some hated downtown, north sider's wouldn't vote for south side.) The 42nd St location was viewed as a good compromise, with visibility and access to I29. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 The Fargodome was opened 9 years before the Alerus Thats why I said the 80's would have been a perfect time for the Alerus the Fargodome opened in 1992. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 If the Canad Inn, water park, and entertainment center had not been built, think of how large the deficits would have been! Until the hotel was built, the convention business was poor. To make the Alerus more successful requires more "activities" to be around around it. IMHO, it would have made tremendous sense to build the new wellness center there as well as a new library. Adding those type amenities around it makes the Alerus even more attractive to restaurants, making the Alerus more attractive to conventions, which in turn make it more attractive to hotels, which in turn make it more attractive to concerts. In Regina, Saskatchewan, the is talk a building a retractable roof stadium. But the economics just don't make sense, unless the project is even "bigger": Think bigger on Regina Dome plan Cities rarely ever have truly profitable stadiums or arenas (when the capital cost is included). However, if the plan includes area development that encompasses much more than the stadium, the net increase in taxable values and taxes can result in much higher benefits. At least they are starting to build things around it...ever so slowly. Like the Valley Dairy store I am sure on gameday that place picks up. Maybe stick another Hugo's over there or a restaurant or two like they have at the Fargodome where you have a lot of food places to binge at both before and after the game or concert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cratter Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Did I miss something? What's the problem with the Alerus Center? It looses money?.....so. So does the Library, The Park Board, and other Government buildings/programs. Doesn't the Police and Fire department loose money too? I think peoples unreal expectations that it will makes money is the real problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Did I miss something? What's the problem with the Alerus Center? It looses money?.....so. So does the Library, The Park Board, and other Government buildings/programs. Doesn't the Police and Fire department loose money too? I think peoples unreal expectations that it will makes money is the real problem. How can you compare the AC to a government building or program? One is funded by taxpayers as a service to the community to protect them from bad guys, protect their homes from fire, and the other one is funded by a sales tax that is not living up to its expectations. Besides Cher what other huge concerts really made the money...Brittney Spears? Plus attendence with Sioux football was down a little last year but will be extremely worse this year. So I asked what could be done for the AC to make money...maybe add Sioux basketball into the place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cratter Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 How can you compare the AC to a government building or program? One is funded by taxpayers as a service to the community to protect them from bad guys, protect their homes from fire, and the other one is funded by a sales tax that is not living up to its expectations. Besides Cher what other huge concerts really made the money...Brittney Spears? Plus attendence with Sioux football was down a little last year but will be extremely worse this year. So I asked what could be done for the AC to make money...maybe add Sioux basketball into the place. No one ever was told the Alerus Center would make money. That is not why it was built. No one said they would only bring in concerts if they made money. That is and never was the goal. Sioux basketball in the Alerus isn't be a bad idea. I enjoyed watching the Minnesota Timberwolves in the building. Except for the fact that UND doesn't want to have games off campus and have to rent the Alerus when it has a nice new on campus stadium. Police Patrol is a service to the community to protect from bad guys funded by the taxpayers. The Alerus is a service to the community to provide concerts and conventions to the community. Looks like its living up to expectations. No one ever promised "big name" concerts or a certain number of them. For a town of 60,000 with a competing venue for concerts in the same town: Grand Forks does quite well. How do we fix the problem for the Library to make money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 No one ever was told the Alerus Center would make money. That is not why it was built. No one said they would only bring in concerts if they made money. That is and never was the goal. Sioux basketball in the Alerus isn't be a bad idea. I enjoyed watching the Minnesota Timberwolves in the building. Except for the fact that UND doesn't want to have games off campus and have to rent the Alerus when it has a nice new on campus stadium. Police Patrol is a service to the community to protect from bad guys funded by the taxpayers. The Alerus is a service to the community to provide concerts and conventions to the community. Looks like its living up to expectations. No one ever promised "big name" concerts or a certain number of them. For a town of 60,000 with a competing venue for concerts in the same town: Grand Forks does quite well. How do we fix the problem for the Library to make money? I disagree - when campaigning for the Alerus, the promise of concerts to compete with Fargo was a big selling point and for the first couple of years they did very well. I consider the total lack of entertainment that I am interested in a broken promise made by people who would say anything to get the vote to go their way. Complaints about concerts losing money don't wash with me when you look at which concerts we get. The Fargo Dome gets Page and Plant, the Rolling Stones, John Mellencamp, and Eric Clapton. The Alerus gets Brittany Spears, Cher, and the the 69 year old Neil Diamond. Of course we are going to lose money. I don't expect the Alerus to make money, but I do expect some entertainment I am interested in besides Sioux Football, which I was attending before the Alerus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cratter Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I disagree - when campaigning for the Alerus, the promise of concerts to compete with Fargo was a big selling point and for the first couple of years they did very well. I consider the total lack of entertainment that I am interested in a broken promise made by people who would say anything to get the vote to go their way. Complaints about concerts losing money don't wash with me when you look at which concerts we get. The Fargo Dome gets Page and Plant, the Rolling Stones, John Mellencamp, and Eric Clapton. The Alerus gets Brittany Spears, Cher, and the the 69 year old Neil Diamond. Of course we are going to lose money. I don't expect the Alerus to make money, but I do expect some entertainment I am interested in besides Sioux Football, which I was attending before the Alerus. Oh I get it now: Expectations aren't met because people compare it to the Fargodome. The Fargodome gets more big name concerts more often. Go figure a city greater than what four times that of Grand Forks. There is a promise of concerts to compete with Fargo and that's exactly what it did and does. Sorry if you don't like those particular concerts especially when you compare them to ones going to Fargo or Minneapolis. How many of these/those concerts had come to GF before the Alerus (and I guess after the old civic)? Zero. Only had the under 3,000 seat Chester Fritz or Hyslop Arena. You might not have been one of them but people were happy to watch Britney Spears/Neil Diamond/Aerosmith/Kiss/Ozzy Osbourne/Black Eye Peas/Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton (hosting 18,000 people not possible without the Alerus) in Grand Forks. Did you enjoy Jake Owen and Bullriding the Alerus gave the citizens of Grand Forks the opportunity to enjoy not even a month ago? Are you going to the Harlem Globetrotters? The Mens Show? Tim Mcgraw? Again Goal fulfilled. Sorry it doesn't meet your Fargodome expectations. Maybe you wanna have a list of what you consider "big name" concerts and what percent of them you think grand forks should be able to get on a three year rotating basis? PS. Who is Page and Plant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bincitysioux Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I'm not from Grand Forks. Other than just about every Sioux Football game played there, the only other event I've attended there is the Ozzy Osbourne concert. Given the fact that Sioux football and Ozzy are two of my favorite things in life, the Alerus has more than met my expectations............................ Seriously, how good or bad is the basketball setup in the Alerus, atmosphere wise and viewing wise? Never been to a game there, and I absolutely hated it when UND played in the REA except for NDSU, (I wasn't at the Kansas game, but I'd imagine that was a good time as well). I wouldn't be in favor of moving Sioux basketball to the Alerus, unless they were routinely drawing 6,000 or more. I wouldn't be adverse though to playing a known high-draw game there like NDSU. To me it wouldn't make much difference if such a game were in the Alerus or the REA. I suppose REA would still draw better though simply due to the facility and it being on campus (students currently can't seem to walk 3 blocks to the Betty, I'm sure the Alerus would seem like it is on another continent to them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 According to the auditors in the CAFR report on the city website, the Alerus lost 2.7 million dollars last year 2009 over and above the cost of financing the construction bonds. The Alerus claimed they lost under $200,000. According to the Alerus Center packet available on the city website attendance has been falling each of the last four years (they only list five on their report). The Alerus hasn't had a profitable concert for years. But they say the reason why they are losing money is that they don't have enough concerts. Last year the attorney general scolded the Alerus Commission for having an illegal secret meeting. The purpose of the illegal secret meeting was to cover up the fraud of the Executive Director the the Alerus going on non related travel, running up extravagant bills and charging the city for them. The city was forced due to the scandals to have an Alerus Task Force to restore credibility. They were supposed to have a system of the city evaluating risk on concerts rather than having a surprise bill stuck on the taxpayers. Now I'm not against the McGraw concert, but we must have guarenteed a payment to him of between 500k to a million. (Spears was $800,000 I believe.) I recently looked through the Alerus Commission, the City Finance Committee, and the City Council minutes and didn't see any assumption of that risk by our "leaders." I don't see how the Venuworks can pledge our money without authorization of the city council. These are just a few of the problems at the Alerus. Some say the quality of life has been improved by the Alerus. I say that the quality of life has been harmed in this city by the lies and misrepresentations and mismanagement surrounding the Alerus Center. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGreyAnt41 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Here's a link: Alerus Center History An 80's vote for a downtown arena was defeated. An early 90's vote for a site near Columbia Mall was defeated. Both of those sites had detractors (some hated downtown, north sider's wouldn't vote for south side.) The 42nd St location was viewed as a good compromise, with visibility and access to I29. I only lived in Grand Forks for the years I was in school so I definitely have a different point of view, but is there really that kind of "rivalry" between people who live on the north side and those on the south? Does the three or four mile difference really matter that much to those who grew up there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Oh I get it now: Expectations aren't met because people compare it to the Fargodome. The Fargodome gets more big name concerts more often. Go figure a city greater than what four times that of Grand Forks. There is a promise of concerts to compete with Fargo and that's exactly what it did and does. Sorry if you don't like those particular concerts especially when you compare them to ones going to Fargo or Minneapolis. How many of these/those concerts had come to GF before the Alerus (and I guess after the old civic)? Zero. Only had the under 3,000 seat Chester Fritz or Hyslop Arena. You might not have been one of them but people were happy to watch Britney Spears/Neil Diamond/Aerosmith/Kiss/Ozzy Osbourne/Black Eye Peas/Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton (hosting 18,000 people not possible without the Alerus) in Grand Forks. Did you enjoy Jake Owen and Bullriding the Alerus gave the citizens of Grand Forks the opportunity to enjoy not even a month ago? Are you going to the Harlem Globetrotters? The Mens Show? Tim Mcgraw? Again Goal fulfilled. Sorry it doesn't meet your Fargodome expectations. Maybe you wanna have a list of what you consider "big name" concerts and what percent of them you think grand forks should be able to get on a three year rotating basis? PS. Who is Page and Plant? Jimmy Page and Robert Plant are from a band even you may have heard of - Led Zepplin. No, I did not go and enjoy the bullriding Look - I didn't make up this constant comparison to the Fargodome - the supporters of the Alerus did before the vote. My take was always that we won't be able to compete for entertainment, but the supporters position was "just see - we'll get in great entertainment - people will travel to see it". Pre-vote there was no mention of not being able to compete- blaming those of us who bring up these campaign promises is crazy. I for one don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth even though we got in the Harlem Globetrotters (who could have easily performed in the Betty). What's more - I feel that I was promised a much better effort by people who would say anything to get it built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison Dan Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 The Alerus was build for one reason: little man's syndrome - plain and simple. For a city of 50,000 it's hard to have the REA and the Alerus and have them profitable. Besides the two venues (FargoDome & Alerus) are really quite different - the Alerus completes with private business for conventions, weddings, etc. and that's it's major source of income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Jimmy Page and Robert Plant are from a band even you may have heard of - Led Zepplin. No, I did not go and enjoy the bullriding Look - I didn't make up this constant comparison to the Fargodome - the supporters of the Alerus did before the vote. My take was always that we won't be able to compete for entertainment, but the supporters position was "just see - we'll get in great entertainment - people will travel to see it". Pre-vote there was no mention of not being able to compete- blaming those of us who bring up these campaign promises is crazy. I for one don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth even though we got in the Harlem Globetrotters (who could have easily performed in the Betty). What's more - I feel that I was promised a much better effort by people who would say anything to get it built. I saw them in the Hyslop(in the late 80's-early 90's) so the Betty would be good for it unless the Alerus does end up selling more seats. My parents never voted for the Alerus simply because it wasn't needed. Sioux football---Memorial Stadium, concerts Hyslop, Chester Fritz. Or even Memorial Stadium could have had an outdoor concert that would have been fun. Now you have the REA and of course the Alerus is NOT going to make money. But people didn't know the REA would've been built at the same time as the AC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 I only lived in Grand Forks for the years I was in school so I definitely have a different point of view, but is there really that kind of "rivalry" between people who live on the north side and those on the south? Does the three or four mile difference really matter that much to those who grew up there? I was born and raised on the north side of GF and there was a rivalry. Everything has to be built on the south side, restaurants, mall, and they wanted the AC built on the south side what was on the north side.....UND. So they comprimised as best as they could and put it towards the center along the interstate. Its like Fargo everything has to be built south when on the northside there are so many empty buildings but lets build south, south, south. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartTime Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Oh I get it now: Expectations aren't met because people compare it to the Fargodome. The Fargodome gets more big name concerts more often. Go figure a city greater than what four times that of Grand Forks. There is a promise of concerts to compete with Fargo and that's exactly what it did and does. Sorry if you don't like those particular concerts especially when you compare them to ones going to Fargo or Minneapolis. How many of these/those concerts had come to GF before the Alerus (and I guess after the old civic)? Zero. Only had the under 3,000 seat Chester Fritz or Hyslop Arena. You might not have been one of them but people were happy to watch Britney Spears/Neil Diamond/Aerosmith/Kiss/Ozzy Osbourne/Black Eye Peas/Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton (hosting 18,000 people not possible without the Alerus) in Grand Forks. Did you enjoy Jake Owen and Bullriding the Alerus gave the citizens of Grand Forks the opportunity to enjoy not even a month ago? Are you going to the Harlem Globetrotters? The Mens Show? Tim Mcgraw? Again Goal fulfilled. Sorry it doesn't meet your Fargodome expectations. Maybe you wanna have a list of what you consider "big name" concerts and what percent of them you think grand forks should be able to get on a three year rotating basis? PS. Who is Page and Plant? Yeah, if you compare Fargo's metro population to Grand Forks city population, big difference, but I know your trying to make a point here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach daddy Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Did I miss something? What's the problem with the Alerus Center? It looses money?.....so. So does the Library, The Park Board, and other Government buildings/programs. Doesn't the Police and Fire department loose money too? I think peoples unreal expectations that it will makes money is the real problem. I agree with this. I don't care that the Alerus Center loses money because restaurants and hotels make money when events are scheduled there. The sales tax from the hotels, restaurants, and stores in GF go right back in to the the city budget. I think if you look over the last few years, you'll city sales tax revenues to be very good. Maybe the "building" loses money but the "city" makes money. That works for me!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I agree with this. I don't care that the Alerus Center loses money because restaurants and hotels make money when events are scheduled there. The sales tax from the hotels, restaurants, and stores in GF go right back in to the the city budget. I think if you look over the last few years, you'll city sales tax revenues to be very good. Maybe the "building" loses money but the "city" makes money. That works for me!!!! Even at the exaggerative economic impact the Alerus claims they don't come close to paying for the costs associated with the building. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I saw them in the Hyslop(in the late 80's-early 90's) so the Betty would be good for it unless the Alerus does end up selling more seats. My parents never voted for the Alerus simply because it wasn't needed. Sioux football---Memorial Stadium, concerts Hyslop, Chester Fritz. Or even Memorial Stadium could have had an outdoor concert that would have been fun. Now you have the REA and of course the Alerus is NOT going to make money. But people didn't know the REA would've been built at the same time as the AC. That's not completely true. Ralph Englestad had announced his gift (in 1997 I think) well before ground was broken for the Alerus. The powers that be refused to consider not building it. In fact one citizen (ok he's kinda a goofball) put together a petition that was rejected by the council on technical grounds. OK fine, but the city council could have called a vote based on the intentions of those that signed the petition. The fact is that the Alerus gang seems to be quite hostile to the Ralph. They are always falsely blaming the Ralph for their own failure in the concert business. Last year the Ralph had concerts when the Alerus didn't hold any. The year before the Ralph didn't compete during the time frame of the disastrous Britney Spears concert. Either way, they knew the Ralph was coming and it would have saved us the seven or eight million a year the Alerus costs us. (Two sales taxes plus various other subsidies.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobIwabuchiFan Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 That's not completely true. Ralph Englestad had announced his gift (in 1997 I think) well before ground was broken for the Alerus. The powers that be refused to consider not building it. In fact one citizen (ok he's kinda a goofball) put together a petition that was rejected by the council on technical grounds. OK fine, but the city council could have called a vote based on the intentions of those that signed the petition. The fact is that the Alerus gang seems to be quite hostile to the Ralph. They are always falsely blaming the Ralph for their own failure in the concert business. Last year the Ralph had concerts when the Alerus didn't hold any. The year before the Ralph didn't compete during the time frame of the disastrous Britney Spears concert. Either way, they knew the Ralph was coming and it would have saved us the seven or eight million a year the Alerus costs us. (Two sales taxes plus various other subsidies.) When was the last time the Engelstad held a business convention? I think the two facilities have different roles in the community...One is a convention center that can be used as an athletics facility and one is primarily a hockey arena for the Fighting Sioux...to compare the two and say one could have sufficed versus the other is comparing apples to oranges in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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