NDSU - UND game 2010

[MplsBison]

I remember Gene saying that he has increased the buy out amounts on the contracts after Montana State payed the sum which was way too low. $25,000 is sticking in my head for some reason.

It's not worth arguing over, the important thing is that they're coming to Fargo and we don't have to make a 2nd trip to Bozeman. From what I heard, they did not show NDSU fans or players very much hospitality (I believe one of their fans tried to start a fight with our players after the game).

[MplsBison]

The discussion for the UND game has been to sell that one game at double the normal single game ticket price. The single game tickets have been increasing by about $5 a year for the past few years and I wouldn't be surprised if that continues if the team can start producing again. I don't think NDSU could go out and ask those kind of prices that quickly for all games. Season Ticket prices have been gradually increasing every year too. You risk the chance of losing season ticket holders because of raising prices too quickly so I believe there won't be a drastic increase in price if UND does come to Fargo.

With season ticket sales nearing 10,000 and 4,000 being reserved for students it doesn't leave much room for others. Local watering holes would definately appreaciate the game again that is for sure. I think this will all eventually work itself out but it is going to take some major negotiating to get all sides to agree to play again.

That's the key, negotiating.

UND is not going to live with just a one-off game here and there every few years and NDSU is not going to live with playing the game every single year in an alternating series so long as UND is not a conference game.

[UND92,96]

Gene only has to find 2 more games to have complete schedules for 2010 and 2011 that includes 6 home games. He isn't going to change how his is doing things now just to schedule UND again.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that Taylor thinks NDSU can play an FBS game, AND two home non-conference games every year? Wouldn't that mean NDSU wouldn't play any non-conference FCS games on the road, other than in 12-game seasons?

[Ole in MSP]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that Taylor thinks NDSU can play an FBS game, AND two home non-conference games every year? Wouldn't that mean NDSU wouldn't play any non-conference FCS games on the road, other than in 12-game seasons?

Keep in mind that re UND Gene may a bit paranoid. The Bison record against UND since he became AD is 0-3. He obviously thinks he has little to gain personally by playing UND and if he can get enough mileage out of Bohl he can move on to a bigger AD job. It is strictly a personal political move with no regard for the state of ND and the two universities.

[MplsBison]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that Taylor thinks NDSU can play an FBS game, AND two home non-conference games every year? Wouldn't that mean NDSU wouldn't play any non-conference FCS games on the road, other than in 12-game seasons?

That's the theory, anyway.

Something will have to give.

Either you do the normal FCS thing, you play 5 home games, an FBS away game and travel to an FCS non-conference every year, or you do the Montana thing with 6 home games and don't play any FBS away games, but you still travel to an FCS non-conference every year.

You end up having to give the FBS game up for the 6th home game. That works for some teams and doesn't for others.

I think my dream non-conference schedule would be to rotate 2, alternating non-conference FCS home/home games between UND, USD, Montana and Montana State and then rotate an FBS away game between Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Iowa State and Nebraska.

[sultan]

Blah. Blah. Blah. If Taylor wants the series to resume it will happen. USD games are going to happen. It is everyone's loss. Bison fans are always going to support anything Taylor says even if he is constantly talking in circles. The reason this series stopped was a mistake. Everyone has been punished enough. The mistake was made years ago. It is old news. Move on.

[johnson]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that Taylor thinks NDSU can play an FBS game, AND two home non-conference games every year? Wouldn't that mean NDSU wouldn't play any non-conference FCS games on the road, other than in 12-game seasons?

I don't think that six home games will be achievable every year. Things can go wrong with the schedule like Northeastern suddenly dropping football or Idaho State buying out of a contract. But when Austin Peay and Central Connecticut State were sell-outs it was very obvious that they can bring in a lower tier FCS school every season and not affect ticket sales. They can stay at home and make a very nice profit. UND became less valuable as games started to sell out and then to top it all off SDSU showed up and broke the attendance record. UND could bring in guaranteed large numbers no doubt but it appears that if NDSU does well the tickets will be sold without UND. Now if NDSU continues to slide that could all vanish in a hurry.

It looks like Gene is hoping to bring a product to regional FBS schools that will be competitive enough to bring fans to the stadium. He hasn't been hopscotching all over the US trying to bring in the biggest guarantee he can find. It appears that he is scheduling FBS schools that are relatively close to Fargo. It not only helps regional recruiting but it increases the potential for more games in the future. If NDSU could find themselves continually scheduling the likes of Minnesota, Iowa State, Kansas, etc. every year their fans could become more familiar with NDSU and buy more tickets if they can be competitive enough when they show up. Increased ticket sales could lead to increased guarantees making the sixth home game nothing but a bonus for season ticket holders and not so much a money issue.

[star2city]

UND became less valuable as games started to sell out and then to top it all off SDSU showed up and broke the attendance record. UND could bring in guaranteed large numbers no doubt but it appears that if NDSU does well the tickets will be sold without UND. Now if NDSU continues to slide that could all vanish in a hurry.

The concept is still going way over your head.

A home game against UND is worth much more than a "normal" home game because higher prices can be charged. To bring in a one-game only opponent, paying them $100 k+, every year has a much smaller benefit than a home game against UND every other year.

It's net that matters, not tickets sold.

[SooToo]

I don't think that six home games will be achievable every year. Things can go wrong with the schedule like Northeastern suddenly dropping football or Idaho State buying out of a contract. But when Austin Peay and Central Connecticut State were sell-outs it was very obvious that they can bring in a lower tier FCS school every season and not affect ticket sales. They can stay at home and make a very nice profit. UND became less valuable as games started to sell out and then to top it all off SDSU showed up and broke the attendance record. UND could bring in guaranteed large numbers no doubt but it appears that if NDSU does well the tickets will be sold without UND. Now if NDSU continues to slide that could all vanish in a hurry.

It looks like Gene is hoping to bring a product to regional FBS schools that will be competitive enough to bring fans to the stadium. ... Increased ticket sales could lead to increased guarantees making the sixth home game nothing but a bonus for season ticket holders and not so much a money issue.

I guess you've got that right. But, hey, if you're satisfied with Taylor's current 25% success rate (20% when a sixth home game fails to materialize for '10) then good for you. And kudos to Gene for his ability to hook a few live ones in Fargo. Buy outs, programs folding or schools othewise refusing a return game (don't think Montana State was ever on your schedule) have had nothing to do with failure to schedule a sixth home game for NDSU. It's damn tough to find quality opponents for a single road game, and when you do, the pay out for a subpar team squashes your home payday.

With the skyrocketing cost of travel, its ridiculous that the Dakota schools do not play each other on a regular basis, especially now that everyone's back in the same division. If you're anxious to continue trying to bring in subpar teams for a big pay-out then good luck to you. But don't try to sell this as a move that makes the most money for NDSU.

He may be crazy, but Lakes Bison has it right; the goal from the beginning was to try to establish the AC as THE football school in North Dakota. Avoiding, delaying and, if necessary, limiting games with UND is part of Taylor's strategy. Little or nothing to do with economics. Oh, and PM me when NDSU is a big draw in the Big Ten.

[johnson]

The concept is still going way over your head.

A home game against UND is worth much more than a "normal" home game because higher prices can be charged. To bring in a one-game only opponent, paying them $100 k+, every year has a much smaller benefit than a home game against UND every other year.

It's net that matters, not tickets sold.

Higher prices will be charged to cover the money lost when going to UND the following year.

[Shawn-O]

Higher prices will be charged to cover the money lost when going to UND the following year.

Maybe they can pool the incremental profit together as a bail fund for that roster full of no-good-niks and ne'er-do-wells in Fargo.

[johnson]

I guess you've got that right. But, hey, if you're satisfied with Taylor's current 25% success rate (20% when a sixth home game fails to materialize for '10) then good for you. And kudos to Gene for his ability to hook a few live ones in Fargo. Buy outs, programs folding or schools othewise refusing a return game (don't think Montana State was ever on your schedule) have had nothing to do with failure to schedule a sixth home game for NDSU. It's damn tough to find quality opponents for a single road game, and when you do, the pay out for a subpar team squashes your home payday.

With the skyrocketing cost of travel, its ridiculous that the Dakota schools do not play each other on a regular basis, especially now that everyone's back in the same division. If you're anxious to continue trying to bring in subpar teams for a big pay-out then good luck to you. But don't try to sell this as a move that makes the most money for NDSU.

He may be crazy, but Lakes Bison has it right; the goal from the beginning was to try to establish the AC as THE football school in North Dakota. Avoiding, delaying and, if necessary, limiting games with UND is part of Taylor's strategy. Little or nothing to do with economics. Oh, and PM me when NDSU is a big draw in the Big Ten.

I don't think he is going out of his way to jump back into putting UND on the schedule. Like I said before, if they can start producing again the tickets will sell regardless.

Fargo Forum:

“We’re excited to get the return game worked out with Montana State” said Taylor.

The game with the Bobcats is the return date for NDSU’s 2005 road game.

Montana State won 20-17 in Bozeman. The Bison and MSU are scheduled to

play Sept. 7, 2013.

[SooToo]

I don't think he is going out of his way to jump back into putting UND on the schedule. Like I said before, if they can start producing again the tickets will sell regardless....

...and you'll either pay a $100,000 guarantee for a one-game contract with a team from nowhere (while generating perhaps 5,000 additional paid customers) or you'll spend nearly as much in travel fulfilling your half of a home and home. Honestly, is this a difficult concept to grasp?

[sultan]

A UND/NDSU game could be an extremely profitable game. Much higher than any other nonconference game. Bison fans seem to think every thing is rosy when it comes to ticket sales right now. If NDSU doesn't start winning some games in a hurry you will be able to shoot a cannon through the Fargodome. There were a lot of empty seats as this year went on.

[johnson]

...and you'll either pay a $100,000 guarantee for a one-game contract with a team from nowhere (while generating perhaps 5,000 additional paid customers) or you'll spend nearly as much in travel fulfilling your half of a home and home. Honestly, is this a difficult concept to grasp?

You are over estimating the amount guaranteed for a team like Austin Peay. You would be looking at more in the range of 50k-65k. NDSU can bring in a lower tier FCS school and still sell tickets. I have stated that it all could vanish if NDSU doesn't start to produce. If another season like last year happens again this year all of the interest that has been gained could be lost. If that happens then yes NDSU would need UND to help fill the stands but that hasn't been the case for a few years now.

[82SiouxGuy]

You are over estimating the amount guaranteed for a team like Austin Peay. You would be looking at more in the range of 50k-65k. NDSU can bring in a lower tier FCS school and still sell tickets. I have stated that it all could vanish if NDSU doesn't start to produce. If another season like last year happens again this year all of the interest that has been gained could be lost. If that happens then yes NDSU would need UND to help fill the stands but that hasn't been the case for a few years now.

The fanbase isn't going to be happy playing a bunch of stiffs in non-conference games every year. It's basically the same thing as when UND used to play Crookston and NDSU used to play Moorhead. The first time or 2 it's amusing to watch your team score a lot of points and dominate the game. Then it gets boring and attendance starts to drop, plus fans complain. I believe that Montana learned that lesson over the past decade. The fans loved all the home games with weak teams for a few years, but then got tired of the blowouts. And now it sounds like Montana has started traveling again for non-conference on occasion.

[homer]

The fanbase isn't going to be happy playing a bunch of stiffs in non-conference games every year. It's basically the same thing as when UND used to play Crookston and NDSU used to play Moorhead. The first time or 2 it's amusing to watch your team score a lot of points and dominate the game. Then it gets boring and attendance starts to drop, plus fans complain. I believe that Montana learned that lesson over the past decade. The fans loved all the home games with weak teams for a few years, but then got tired of the blowouts. And now it sounds like Montana has started traveling again for non-conference on occasion.

Or the playoff games that UND had with Winona St.. NDSU fans like to make fun of the last few years of attendance for those games but honestly after years of easy victories against teams like that fans can't be blamed for not showing up.

Also, in regards to Johnson and his schedule a game and fans will come, these pics from one of your own fans don't exactly paint the same picture you are trying to paint. This is one side of the dome and I know the other side, with the students didn't look a whole lot better. Even from the start of the year there are an aweful lot of fans wearing blue to the fargodome.

[UND1983]

You are over estimating the amount guaranteed for a team like Austin Peay. You would be looking at more in the range of 50k-65k. NDSU can bring in a lower tier FCS school and still sell tickets. I have stated that it all could vanish if NDSU doesn't start to produce. If another season like last year happens again this year all of the interest that has been gained could be lost. If that happens then yes NDSU would need UND to help fill the stands but that hasn't been the case for a few years now.

Its 80-100k minimum these days to come to North Dakota. Charters are expensive.

[johnson]

Or the playoff games that UND had with Winona St.. NDSU fans like to make fun of the last few years of attendance for those games but honestly after years of easy victories against teams like that fans can't be blamed for not showing up.

Also, in regards to Johnson and his schedule a game and fans will come, these pics from one of your own fans don't exactly paint the same picture you are trying to paint. This is one side of the dome and I know the other side, with the students didn't look a whole lot better. Even from the start of the year there are an aweful lot of fans wearing blue to the fargodome.

Product of a poor 2008 season and what turned out to be a horrible 2009 season. I keep stating that if they don't produce this year it will all vanish. They still managed an average of 16,500 for the season which ranked 9th in all of FCS. The one side of the stadium you are looking at probably has more people sitting there than the total at some of UND's games last year.

[82SiouxGuy]

Product of a poor 2008 season and what turned out to be a horrible 2009 season. I keep stating that if they don't produce this year it will all vanish. They still managed an average of 16,500 for the season which ranked 9th in all of FCS. The one side of the stadium you are looking at probably has more people sitting there than the total at some of UND's games last year.

You still get unhappy fans, which leads to lower attendance, even if you are successful when playing a bunch of tomato cans. That's why always having a schedule of 8 conference games, 1 FBS game on the road and 2 non-conference games at home will not work long term. The only FCS schools that will agree to a single road game without a return game at their stadium are the weakest teams. They do it for the money (like the better FCS taking on FBS schools). If charters are running $80,000 they will want at least $100,000 to make the trip. So to get a 6 game home schedule every year you have to pay at least $100,000 for each of the non-conference games and you will still end up angering your supporters because of the weak schedule. It isn't a viable scheduling practice for the long term. It worked for Montana for a while because they needed the money to pay off debt and it was a new idea, no one else in FCS had tried it yet. But as I stated earlier, they don't even follow that practice now.

[johnson]

You still get unhappy fans, which leads to lower attendance, even if you are successful when playing a bunch of tomato cans. That's why always having a schedule of 8 conference games, 1 FBS game on the road and 2 non-conference games at home will not work long term. The only FCS schools that will agree to a single road game without a return game at their stadium are the weakest teams. They do it for the money (like the better FCS taking on FBS schools). If charters are running $80,000 they will want at least $100,000 to make the trip. So to get a 6 game home schedule every year you have to pay at least $100,000 for each of the non-conference games and you will still end up angering your supporters because of the weak schedule. It isn't a viable scheduling practice for the long term. It worked for Montana for a while because they needed the money to pay off debt and it was a new idea, no one else in FCS had tried it yet. But as I stated earlier, they don't even follow that practice now.

I am not defending it as a great practice and who knows how long he is thinking he needs six home games. I am just defending that he is in fact trying to schedule six home games in the near future. There have been a few problems to get teams to commit to their side of the home/home but have now finally been scheduled. I do know that NDSU needs some facility upgrades soon so having a sixth home game to make more money isn't such a far fetched story right now to me. None of us have solid numbers on anything. We are all just speculating at what things could possibly cost and how much could possibly be made. I don't think anyone at NDSU is intentionally keeping UND off the schedule now at this point. Was the USD deal presented to UND first? I heard that it was but I can't say I know it was for a fact. We have Baseball and Basketball on the schedule and Volleyball is not far behind. It is slowly starting to become a reality again. To me Gene is saying we'll play but we're not giving you what exactly what you want if we don't feel it works for us. NDSU has established their long term goals and if UND doesn't agree to how NDSU thinks they fit into achieving those goals then they will go elsewhere. If UND can make it into the MVFC then all things will be back to normal. I know Youngstown has applied to an FBS conference the past couple of years and if Indiana State can't get things together soon I wouldn't be shocked if their football program disappears like Northeastern or moves on to something that is a better fit for them. Teams move around and I think until UND can get into the MVFC you aren't going to be happy with what NDSU is going to be willing to offer.

[homer]

I am not defending it as a great practice and who knows how long he is thinking he needs six home games. I am just defending that he is in fact trying to schedule six home games in the near future. There have been a few problems to get teams to commit to their side of the home/home but have now finally been scheduled. I do know that NDSU needs some facility upgrades soon so having a sixth home game to make more money isn't such a far fetched story right now to me. None of us have solid numbers on anything. We are all just speculating at what things could possibly cost and how much could possibly be made. I don't think anyone at NDSU is intentionally keeping UND off the schedule now at this point. Was the USD deal presented to UND first? I heard that it was but I can't say I know it was for a fact. We have Baseball and Basketball on the schedule and Volleyball is not far behind. It is slowly starting to become a reality again. To me Gene is saying we'll play but we're not giving you what exactly what you want if we don't feel it works for us. NDSU has established their long term goals and if UND doesn't agree to how NDSU thinks they fit into achieving those goals then they will go elsewhere. If UND can make it into the MVFC then all things will be back to normal. I know Youngstown has applied to an FBS conference the past couple of years and if Indiana State can't get things together soon I wouldn't be shocked if their football program disappears like Northeastern or moves on to something that is a better fit for them. Teams move around and I think until UND can get into the MVFC you aren't going to be happy with what NDSU is going to be willing to offer.

Well put johnson.

[MplsBison]

I have to think that the MVFC already has both UND and USD on the radar for expansion if anyone leaves the MVFC.

[star2city]

I do know that NDSU needs some facility upgrades soon so having a sixth home game to make more money isn't such a far fetched story right now to me. None of us have solid numbers on anything. We are all just speculating at what things could possibly cost and how much could possibly be made. I don't think anyone at NDSU is intentionally keeping UND off the schedule now at this point.

Incredibly, you're still aren't comprehending the costs and embracing the fallacy that a sixth game buys more than a home and home series with UND.

This is what a UND game every other year will buy NDSU:

With 19,000 seats

The revenue from 4,000 seats for students doesn't change. (0 revenue)

10,000 season tickets for non-UND years

12,000 season tickets for UND years

3000 tickets for general admission for UND years

5000 tickets for general admission for non-UND years

+$60 for increase for season tickets for UND years x 10,000 = $600,000

even if the increase price for season tickets is only $40 = $400,000

+ $20/seat for general admission x 3000 = $60,000

+ 2000 more season tickets sold = possibly $400,000 more in advance sales, of which maybe $100,000 to $200,000 would never be sold otherwise without a playoff caliber season (indirect benefit)

+ Teammakers would get higher level memberships for enhanced seating an more tickets worth possibly $250,000 (indirect benefit)

Potential direct benefit = $500-750 k every other year

Potential indirect benefit = $3-500 k every other year

A sixth game buys what for NDSU?

Without an increase in season ticket price for 5 games vs 6 games and since a sixth game does not measurably increase season ticket sales, unless an Austin Peay or Wagner-type team directly helps in selling more season tickets

5000 tickets x $20 ticket = $100,000

- $100,000 for guarantee

= zero financial benefit for NDSU for a no-name sixth home game opponent

So why did Gene Taylor schedule USD? Because it was a 3-game contract (home and home optional), and USD only required $50,000 for the extra game as USD can bus to Fargo, and USD is hoping that for a sell-out home game in the DakotaDome a couple years hence.

So why doesn't Gene Taylor schedule UND in football? IMHO, because scheduling home-home with UND would benefit UND to the tune of $3-400 k directly (UND would sell vastly more season tickets at higher prices during NDSU years). NDSU boosters do not want to boost UND's football program financially or face the very likely possibly that they will lose.

[johnson]

Incredibly, you're still aren't comprehending the costs and embracing the fallacy that a sixth game buys more than a home and home series with UND.

This is what a UND game every other year will buy NDSU:

With 19,000 seats

The revenue from 4,000 seats for students doesn't change. (0 revenue)

10,000 season tickets for non-UND years

12,000 season tickets for UND years

3000 tickets for general admission for UND years

5000 tickets for general admission for non-UND years

+$60 for increase for season tickets for UND years x 10,000 = $600,000

even if the increase price for season tickets is only $40 = $400,000

+ $20/seat for general admission x 3000 = $60,000

+ 2000 more season tickets sold = possibly $400,000 more in advance sales, of which maybe $100,000 to $200,000 would never be sold otherwise without a playoff caliber season

+ Teammakers would get higher level memberships for enhanced seating an more tickets

Potential direct benefit = $500-750 k every other year

Potential indirect benefit = $3-500 k every other year

A sixth game buys what for NDSU?

Without an increase in season ticket price, a sixth game does not measurably increase season ticket sales, unless the Wagner-type team directly helps selling more season tickets

5000 tickets x $20 ticket = $100,000

- $100,000 for guarantee

= zero financial benefit for NDSU for a no-name sixth home game opponent

So why did Gene Taylor schedule USD? Because it was a 3-game contract (home and home optional), and USD only required $50,000 for the extra game, USD can bus to Fargo, and USD is hoping that for a sell-out home game in the DakotaDome a couple years hence.

So why doesn't Gene Taylor schedule UND in football? IMHO, because the UND every other home year would benefit UND to the tune of $3-400 k directly every other year (UND would sell vastly more season tickets at higher prices during NDSU years). NDSU boosters do not want to boost UND's football program financially.

What you are not comprehending is that all of your numbers are nothing but speculation. What causes you to believe that UND holds that much value that all prices can be raised just because UND is on the schedule again? You are not part of the administration and you are not involved in anything with the athletic department. You can throw all the numbers you want out and make it sound like it is nothing but a win-win. The rivalry was big and continues to be off the field of play but just because you are UND doesn't make you the greatest thing that can happen to NDSU. If the program starts winning games again the seats will be filled and prices will continue to increase annually. I've noticed that the price of season tickets at the Alerus have dropped in price for two seasons in a row now to the point where I can pick one up for $40.00. UND needs help filling the Alerus and NDSU has been bringing in decent numbers. It's not really smart to come to the negotiating table needing help and start making demands.