The Sicatoka Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 If you want to be nothing, have nothing as your identity. And not long after the not-so-friendly-to-UND members of certain media outlets will pick up and stick a UND "Nothings" tag on you. DaveK: Target your disdain where it belongs. UND is the victim in this. They've been victimized by the ND SBoHE*, by the NCAA**, by the NS SBoHE*** again, and finally the coup de grace will come from Ron His Horse is Thunder. The root cause of all of this? Ron His Horse is Thunder (along with willing accomplices David Gipp and Leigh Jeanotte and Myra Pearson) as they trigged the original ND SBoHE actions. If you can, please be mature enough to not punish the victim; aim your disdain at the root cause. * December 2000, when they took control of the name ** August 2005, when they implemented the monikers policy *** May 2008, when they moved up the timeline to keep this from festering any longer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 A lot of people would, and a lot of others would not. I think you're being severely naive if you think I'm the only person who buys Fighting Sioux merchandise that would not buy UND merchandise with a different nickname/logo on it. There most likely are many others like me who are not voicing their opinion on this message board like I am. This message board only accounts for maybe one half of one percent of all people who might potentially buy UND merchandise. I'm quite confident that most people disagree with others on various topics just as much as I do, but aren't as passionate about defending their opinions as I am. And if it goes down like you apparently want it to, that is exactly what is going to make me feel alienated as a fan. It's interesting that you have reached the point where you are putting words in my mouth. I never even suggested that you would be the only person that would avoid merchandise with a new nickname. As a matter of fact, I have repeatedly said that there would be people that would not buy that merchandise. I have just said that more people would buy merchandise with a new name than would buy merchandise with no nickname. Like in this post. Your reading comprehension skills may need some work. And in my discussion with you I have never talked about what I would like to see happen regarding the nickname. I have predicted what I believe will happen based on a variety of factors, and said that I have accepted that eventuality. There is a huge difference between what I would like to happen and what I believe will happen. One is fantasy, the other is based in reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 The only way to really do that is for UND to transition to a new nickname. I don't want to be like Dartmouth. They can't make the controversy go away 30 years plus after dropping "Indians". Why? They picked "Big Green". Now isn't that just inspiring. That's their core problem: They have no new identity to latch onto. The worst possible outcome would be to not have the name and yet still have the controversy. That's lose-lose. No way will I stand for that. It'll be no fun. But allow me to reveal it's not impossible: Washington Bul... Wizards Dartmouth Ind... Big Green <--- clearly, FAIL Stanford Ind... Cardinal Miami of Ohio Redsk... RedHawks Grand Forks Central Red.. Knights Wahpeton Wo... Huskies Devils Lake Sat... Firebirds Pull the bandage off quickly; pick a new, strong identity; allow people to latch onto something new and better; and let Ron His Horse is Thunder reap his harvest in vast anonymity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Whether there is a new name or no name, either way the old name is gone. They get what they want in either scenario. Let's think about it. If the Fighting Sioux name is officially dropped, but no new name is chosen, what do you think will happen? What will people call the teams? Why have you been advocating that? Oh yeah, so fans could still use the Fighting Sioux name even though it isn't the "official" name. In other words, the name wouldn't really go away. Do you think that the NC$$ wants that to happen? Do you think that the SBoHE is going through all of this hassle so they can have that happen? Do you think that the UND administration really wants that to happen? The answer to the last 3 questions is NO. If there is no new nickname then the old one will not really be gone. And none of the groups that are in charge of this situation are going to let that happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Let's think about it. If the Fighting Sioux name is officially dropped, but no new name is chosen, what do you think will happen? What will people call the teams? Why have you been advocating that? Oh yeah, so fans could still use the Fighting Sioux name even though it isn't the "official" name. In other words, the name wouldn't really go away. ... If there is no new nickname then the old one will not really be gone. And none of the groups that are in charge of this situation are going to let that happen. I don't want to be like Dartmouth. They can't make the controversy go away 30 years plus after dropping "Indians". Why? ... They have no new identity to latch onto. ... The worst possible outcome would be to not have the name and yet still have the controversy. That's lose-lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Whether there is a new name or no name, either way the old name is gone. They get what they want in either scenario. Nobody wins every time. The only thing worse than a loss is compounding it with another loss. The better scenario is to turn a loss into motivation for the next victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Oh, you mean "control what is yours to control"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Oh, you mean "control what is left of yours to control"! Made a minor fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportsDoc Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 I'll agree to disagree with that prediction. I think that, although I concede that more non-fans would buy merchandise with a nickname than without, more UND fans would buy merchandise with no nickname than with a new nickname. Altogether, the overall sales would likely be close to the same either way. With a new nickname or with no nickname at all, the sales of UND merchandise is going to decline significantly. Who buys more merchandise, fans or students? I'd bet students, like 13,000 of them any given year. Within 4 or 5 years very few students on campus will have any Sioux ties, and they will not care that there once was a UND Sioux, only what their school is then. They will be buying the new gear in boxes, as all students do. And, like it or not, it will be their school then. Sure, they will always need our $$$ as Alumni for support, especially athletic support, but they do not survive without an active vibrant student body on campus. It is also quite apparent that the current administration has no ties to the Sioux name, and will be very happy when the whole thing goes away. The sooner the better for them and the SBofHE. Case in point: there are a lot of GFC Redskin alums who hold on to the past. Ask the current students what GFC is and they will say the Knights. It's just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamStrait Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Ask Marquette how their new moniker affected their merchandise marketing. That's what happens when you force the issue. You self-proclaimed marketing geniuses need to quit trying to convince those of us that think going without a moniker is wrong-headed and come up with a new moniker that fits - and I got news for you - all the ones mentioned up to now do not fit. I'd also suggest you get out of smack dab in the middle of that box you're in. UND can't market like Michigan? Think small - be small. Going without a new moniker could set UND apart and exploit the difference to its marketing advantage. I'd have every home game start with a PA announcement similiar to the one currently employed explaining "Fighting Sioux", only it would explain why UND has no moniker. Lets' just say the NCAA, and "Catalyst for Social Change" Myles Brand would be prominently featured. And as for the interlocking "ND", each and every time UND plays before a national audience, I'd make sure the AD's publicity department unambiguously informs the broadcasters that UND had it first - turn a negative into a positive. Sure it would take some effort, but anything worth doing does. Let's not shrink from the challenge, but show a little "can do" North Dakota spirit. I suspect I am thought of as being intransigent, but I can assure that I have given considerable thought to a new moniker, something unique, but fitting. I've thought of Corps of Discovery (Lewis & Clark), Badlanders, Plainsmen (doesn't work well with the women's teams), Prairie or Western Rattlers (which would be somewhat ironic, given the load of bull propigated by pc morons equating Sioux to snake), Roughnecks (oil industry), Bankers (Bank of North Dakota, the only state owned bank in the US), Frontier Scouts, Territorials (Dakota Territory), Ligniters, Northerners (UND is the northernmost state flagship university in the continental US), Eighty Niners (ND was admitted to the Union in 1889), Minutemen (missles), Miners, Equalizers (ND was the only legislature to pass the ERA), Trappers...none seem to fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 I liked Badlanders. In one of these names threads I started a list of names I didn't want UND to adopt, fish, weather phenomenon, etc.. as the new nickname. Maybe we should start with a list of attributes that we want for the new name. Sorry DamStrait, I'm one of those who thinks we need to have one. It's hard to market "nothing". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Think small - be small. Stay in the past, stay in the past. UND is more than likely going to be detached from "Sioux" by Ron His Horse is Thunder. Will UND be the train car cut loose (and roll to a stop, or even backwards), or the locomotive and keep moving forward? I'd have every home game start with a PA announcement similiar to the one currently employed explaining "Fighting Sioux", only it would explain why UND has no moniker. Lets' just say the NCAA, and "Catalyst for Social Change" Myles Brand would be prominently featured. There's less chance of that than retaining the moniker. We're being kicked to the curb by Ron His Horse is Thunder, or more specifically his handlers David Gipp and Leigh Jeanotte. Let them reap the harvest of what they are sowing: Vast Anonymity. Let them explain that to their constituencies (who don't agree with them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Ask Marquette how their new moniker affected their merchandise marketing. That's what happens when you force the issue. You self-proclaimed marketing geniuses need to quit trying to convince those of us that think going without a moniker is wrong-headed and come up with a new moniker that fits - and I got news for you - all the ones mentioned up to now do not fit. I'd also suggest you get out of smack dab in the middle of that box you're in. UND can't market like Michigan? Think small - be small. Going without a new moniker could set UND apart and exploit the difference to its marketing advantage. I'd have every home game start with a PA announcement similiar to the one currently employed explaining "Fighting Sioux", only it would explain why UND has no moniker. Lets' just say the NCAA, and "Catalyst for Social Change" Myles Brand would be prominently featured. And as for the interlocking "ND", each and every time UND plays before a national audience, I'd make sure the AD's publicity department unambiguously informs the broadcasters that UND had it first - turn a negative into a positive. Sure it would take some effort, but anything worth doing does. Let's not shrink from the challenge, but show a little "can do" North Dakota spirit. I suspect I am thought of as being intransigent, but I can assure that I have given considerable thought to a new moniker, something unique, but fitting. I've thought of Corps of Discovery (Lewis & Clark), Badlanders, Plainsmen (doesn't work well with the women's teams), Prairie or Western Rattlers (which would be somewhat ironic, given the load of bull propigated by pc morons equating Sioux to snake), Roughnecks (oil industry), Bankers (Bank of North Dakota, the only state owned bank in the US), Frontier Scouts, Territorials (Dakota Territory), Ligniters, Northerners (UND is the northernmost state flagship university in the continental US), Eighty Niners (ND was admitted to the Union in 1889), Minutemen (missles), Miners, Equalizers (ND was the only legislature to pass the ERA), Trappers...none seem to fit. Marquette and Dartmouth have been mentioned as examples of schools that handled a change poorly. If it is done poorly it won't work. A lot of other schools have made a change and made it work quite well. So the odds are that it can be done well. A new name is not going to please everyone. The more entrenched a person is in keeping the current name, the harder it will be for them to accept any new name. If the change is made the University will have to work very hard to find a name that works for a large number of people. But no answer will please everyone. There is no way that UND will make an announcement before every game that bashes the NC$$. That would be committing a slow suicide. Don't you think that the NC$$ would find a way to put a stop to that, and maybe punish the University in some way? As far as telling broadcasters anything and hoping they will pass along the information, good luck. Some will listen, some won't and some just won't care. Who had what logo first isn't exactly at the top of their list of interesting topics. It would be tough to get much traction with that campaign with the small number of national games that UND will play. It isn't a bad thing to do, I just don't think it would have a huge effect. I haven't heard any new nickname that jumps out at me yet. I don't know if I will. It will be tough to come close to what UND uses now. I have heard some that I think should be kept under consideration, including a few on your list that I have not heard before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 SCOUNDRELS or maybe SCOUNDRELS to try to match the font look in that new avatar I'm using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjw007 Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 How many people said, "If they change from the Blackhawk logo I'll never buy anything again" ... and now have things with the Ben Brien logo. Personally, I think people buy sporting team merchandise when the teams are successful and while a few will buy when it is not successful, many people will not buy when the team is not successful. In the end, the nickname change, I think, would only delay when the person bought the new merchandise. Winning will more of a key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Personally, I think people buy sporting team merchandise when the teams are successful and while a few will buy when it is not successful, many people will not buy when the team is not successful. In the end, the nickname change, I think, would only delay when the person bought the new merchandise. Winning will more of a key. You are right. When a team is winning or going to national tournaments it translates into more tickets sold and more merchandise sold. When teams start losing then ticket sales drop and so do merchandise sales. Everyone likes a winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Uh.... If merchandise sales is affected by success so much, explain the fact that the Chicago Cubs are among the highest selling sports teams in terms of merchandise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdahl Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 If merchandising were the concern, UND would change the name every 6-8 years. Everyone who cares about the Sioux name is going to stock up on current merchandise, hardcore, once its retirement is official. I would think easily 3-5x a normal year's sales. Assuming UND doesn't botch the new nickname choice (as discussed above), then normal sales rates will resume with the new logo and nickname for new students/fans. However, as the arenas start to fill up with the new logo, hangers-on will start to supplement all their Sioux gear with replacements with the new nickname and logo so they can fit in (remember how quickly the Brien logo forced the replacement cycle to move). That will eventually reach near 100% replacement for all still-active fans (discounting those who have retired as fans because of the change, which I would expect to be small percentage-wise in the medium term.) That will be significantly more UND merchandise sold in a 4- to 6-year span than if we stuck with Fighting Sioux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxdonyms Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Here's a question regarding the nickname...not sure of the answer. If/when the name changes, is UND required to change the names on Championship Banners that were won when we were the Fighting Sioux? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdahl Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Here's a question regarding the nickname...not sure of the answer. If/when the name changes, is UND required to change the names on Championship Banners that were won when we were the Fighting Sioux? My guess is no. One of the big concessions the state negotiated in the settlement agreement was that the Sioux nickname is supposed to be able to be displayed in appropriate historical context. I don't have it in front of me, but if they got it worded well enough championships won as the Fighting Sioux should be displayable as such. A lot of people were justifiably upset by the settlement, but examined in the context of a loss being an inevitable outcome, the settlement might have locked in some important points (that most of us probably considered common sense so didn't see as the victories they may have been). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Uh.... If merchandise sales is affected by success so much, explain the fact that the Chicago Cubs are among the highest selling sports teams in terms of merchandise? The Cubbies are the exception that proves the rule. Actually, the Cubs and the Atlanta Braves built up a huge nationwide following in the days when they were the only baseball teams that everyone could watch almost every day. WTBS and WGN built the following for those teams with the Cubs playing mainly afternoon games and the Braves playing right after them in the evening. Wrigley Field added to it for the Cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 My guess is no. One of the big concessions the state negotiated in the settlement agreement was that the Sioux nickname is supposed to be able to be displayed in appropriate historical context. I don't have it in front of me, but if they got it worded well enough championships won as the Fighting Sioux should be displayable as such. A lot of people were justifiably upset by the settlement, but examined in the context of a loss being an inevitable outcome, the settlement might have locked in some important points (that most of us probably considered common sense so didn't see as the victories they may have been). According to Category 1a. on page 11 of the Settlement Agreement banners can stay. I agree that the settlement, which obviously wasn't what the Sioux fans wanted, in the end did grant some leverage to keep some things intact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Here's a question regarding the nickname...not sure of the answer. If/when the name changes, is UND required to change the names on Championship Banners that were won when we were the Fighting Sioux? They are consider part of the historical stuff that doesn't have to change. When you hear someone saying that the granite floor logos have to go their wrong as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxdonyms Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 They are consider part of the historical stuff that doesn't have to change. When you hear someone saying that the granite floor logos have to go their wrong as well. Yeah, I knew I had heard something about the granite flooring not having to go, but I thought that was due to the high cost it would require to replace it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 Yeah, I knew I had heard something about the granite flooring not having to go, but I thought that was due to the high cost it would require to replace it. Yeah I think your right historical and not cost effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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