State Board

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I think they would have a hard time restricting that advertising.

I agree.

I'm mostly wondering about why skating in the building is a "use" of the logo.

I can tell you that the NCAA DI basketball playoff have been held in the United Center, home of the Blackhawks: and there's PLENTY of Hawk imagery all over the building. Every other row has an Indian head on the end of the seats, and there's an enormous Indian Head sculpture across the street.

So why did the NCAA specifically allow the use of that building? Believe me, it's a long and involved bidding process-the NCAA honchos go thru the building on a tour before they give you the games. It's not as if they were ignorant of the building's decor.

[82SiouxGuy]

I agree.

I'm mostly wondering about why skating in the building is a "use" of the logo.

I can tell you that the NCAA DI basketball playoff have been held in the United Center, home of the Blackhawks: and there's PLENTY of Hawk imagery all over the building. Every other row has an Indian head on the end of the seats, and there's an enormous Indian Head sculpture across the street.

So why did the NCAA specifically allow the use of that building?

Believe me, it's a long and involved bidding process-the NCAA honchos go thru the building on a tour before they give you the games. It's not as if they were ignorant of the building's decor.

That is a good question. The only reason I can come up with is that there is no tie between that imagery and any of the schools. At UND there will always be a tie between the school and the nickname and logo even if the tie is historical. But that is good information for REA to have if they can renegotiate the terms of the settlement since REA was not a party to the settlement. From doing a little quick research it looks like the United Center has hosted the NC$$ Basketball Tournament 7 times, the last being in 2007.

[The Walrus]

A good friend of mine Dr Pete O. (used to work at UND, now a Assoc. AD at Utah) also works championships for the NCAA. When they do pre-site evaluations they require all Alcohol Advertising to be covered or removed. Interesting how their stance on Hostile and Abusive images is sporadic and selective at best....?

[Blackheart]

The REA is not going to lift a finger, or pay a single dime, for any costs of removal or retrofit. This is going to potentially become a problem for the University, especially in terms of cash.

I agree. It's interesting that people talk about the cost of removing the logo but what if the REA says take a hike? What if they don't want to make any changes? When the arena was built, there were no conditions in place that prohibited the use of the Sioux logo.

My understanding is that the University does not own the arena (correct me if I'm wrong) so it gets a little sticky when UND comes knocking and says "Hey REA, we have a problem..."

This could get real ugly real fast.

[82SiouxGuy]

I agree. It's interesting that people talk about the cost of removing the logo but what if the REA says take a hike? What if they don't want to make any changes? When the arena was built, there were no conditions in place that prohibited the use of the Sioux logo.

My understanding is that the University does not own the arena (correct me if I'm wrong) so it gets a little sticky when UND comes knocking and says "Hey REA, we have a problem..."

This could get real ugly real fast.

I think that in the end REA will try to work with the UND Athletic Department on the problem. The real problem is that the list of changes is written into the settlement between the SBoHE and the NC$$. REA was not part of the settlement. So they will want to make as few changes as possible. They may try to negotiate with the NC$$ to eliminate some of the "required" changes. And they won't want to pay for it. That will have to come from UND.

[Taz Boy]

I think that in the end REA will try to work with the UND Athletic Department on the problem. The real problem is that the list of changes is written into the settlement between the SBoHE and the NC$$. REA was not part of the settlement. So they will want to make as few changes as possible. They may try to negotiate with the NC$$ to eliminate some of the "required" changes. And they won't want to pay for it. That will have to come from UND.

No question, the REA was a target for the NCAA. They are revolted by it's existence. Unless, of course, it's holding a hockey regional tournament which generated fantastic revenues for their enjoyment.

I suspect, after some careful "cleansing" of the REA as financed by the University, there will be a mandatory on-site audit by an NCAA-formed committee to inspect the premises for any non-compliant material. My recommendation would be to have a select group of Sioux tribal membership who happen to be UND students, in traditional dress, meet these good folks at the door and proudly escort them around the building. Delicious.

taz

[The Sicatoka]

So you still vote eight to zero? Just because he wouldn't talk to them doesn't mean they have to vote 8-0 and move up the timeline.

Question: Do you pull off Band-Aids quickly or slowly.

After pulling slowly for a while don't you realize it's gotta come off and just rip it?

Ron His Horse's has the power and that's that: After some slow pull, the Band-Aid's coming off. So rip and move on.

PS - Would you be happier with a 5-3 vote? It's the same place.

PPS - Go Cavalry.

[The Sicatoka]

No question, the REA was a target for the NCAA.

Now folks are starting to get it.

After "Sioux" is gone a guy dead for seven years will be the next target. You can bank on that.

Heck, they dug him up to kick him around at Spirit Lake last month.

[darell1976]

I agree. It's interesting that people talk about the cost of removing the logo but what if the REA says take a hike? What if they don't want to make any changes? When the arena was built, there were no conditions in place that prohibited the use of the Sioux logo.

My understanding is that the University does not own the arena (correct me if I'm wrong) so it gets a little sticky when UND comes knocking and says "Hey REA, we have a problem..."

This could get real ugly real fast.

The NCAA said that the REA does NOT have to remove ALL logos, just some easy ones that aren't going to break the bank of UND like the one in the granite floor will NOT be removed i just think its the seats and the words and logos outside, but its still going to cost a lot of money and take some time too, i don't think the NCAA has a timetable to remove these logos so maybe UND can drag their feet as long as possible to remove these.

[82SiouxGuy]

The NCAA said that the REA does NOT have to remove ALL logos, just some easy ones that aren't going to break the bank of UND like the one in the granite floor will NOT be removed i just think its the seats and the words and logos outside, but its still going to cost a lot of money and take some time too, i don't think the NCAA has a timetable to remove these logos so maybe UND can drag their feet as long as possible to remove these.

The settlement between the SBoHE and the NC$$ spells out exactly which logos have to be removed each year through 2015 I believe. The problem is that the REA was not part of the making the agreement and have not agreed to the settlement. The last estimate I heard on total cost of removal is at least $1 million.

[darell1976]

The settlement between the SBoHE and the NC$$ spells out exactly which logos have to be removed each year through 2015 I believe. The problem is that the REA was not part of the making the agreement and have not agreed to the settlement. The last estimate I heard on total cost of removal is at least $1 million.

That cost will most likely go into UND's budget under screwed lawsuit.

[82SiouxGuy]

That cost will most likely go into UND's budget under screwed lawsuit.

I don't know if they have that as a line item in their budget. They may have to add it.

[darell1976]

I don't know if they have that as a line item in their budget. They may have to add it.

Maybe with the state's billion dollar surplus they could chip in.

[mksioux]

Folks, just like a tango, it takes two to negotiate an agreement.

Ron His Horse is Thunder effectively flipped the bird at UND the day the NCAA/State of ND agreement was signed.

Ron His Horse is Thunder effectively flipped the bird at UND in Dickinson at the ND SBoHE meeting again.

Ron His Horse is Thunder has no interest in negotiating anything.

As long as that's the position of one side, it's over.

But don't blame the ND SBoHE for it.

I respectfully disagree. While it is true RHHT gave no indication of negotiating, that doesn't give the SBoHE the license to do nothing. How many times does an owner of real estate say he's not interested in selling, yet someone makes him an offer anyway? It happens all the time. And sometimes it leads to negotiations and a sale. Despite RHHT's unwillingness to negotiate, the SBoHE should have nevertheless put together a tangible proposal and delivered it to the Tribal Council. Maybe it would have been ignored. Fine. At least they would have tried. They cannot say that right now.

[mksioux]

Reading between the lines about the way you chose to emphasize words above, let me ask this: Do you think that by skating in a building with the Indian Head logo on it, that the University "uses" that imagery?

JMH (non-legal) O, but I think if you're going that route it sets up a lot of questions about advertising in the arena or even sweatshirts worn by fans. Clearly its one thing to build a new arena with the old logo (which wouldn't be a good business decision in any case) but a virtually new arena which is already built (and built in good faith) where UND has a long-term lease: IMHO a court would have a hard time telling North Dakota to break that lease, especially with so few other options in town.

I've got a lot of other thoughts about the arena, but we'll save them for another day.

Without going back and looking at the old policy, I think you're probably right. I don't think the NCAA would place an otherwise fully compliant member on the Sanctions list if it's only "crime" was using a facility that had Native American imagry in it (at least not yet). The uproar at the time was that REA was scheduled to host the 2006 hockey regional, and the policy prohibited any facility with Native American imagry from hosting an NCAA championship event. The injunction took care of that and allowed the 2006 regional to go forward. The settlement relates to the UND hosting post season events at REA in the future. If REA doesn't want to host any more tournaments, I don't think anything needs to be changed. REA may come to the decision that hosting another regional was a long-shot anyway, so they won't change anything and won't bid for another tournament. But if they want to host another NCAA tournament, there is now a realistic road-map where it was impossible before the settlement.

[ScottM]

Despite RHHT's unwillingness to negotiate, the SBoHE should have nevertheless put together a tangible proposal and delivered it to the Tribal Council. Maybe it would have been ignored. Fine. At least they would have tried. They cannot say that right now.

I agree. The Board took the coward's way out by not even making a serious, formal proposal and using whatever avenues were afforded in the "Settlement". Then again, I can't say I'm really surprised by a bunch of political hacks.

[dagies]

I respectfully disagree. While it is true RHHT gave no indication of negotiating, that doesn't give the SBoHE the license to do nothing. How many times does an owner of real estate say he's not interested in selling, yet someone makes him an offer anyway? It happens all the time. And sometimes it leads to negotiations and a sale. Despite RHHT's unwillingness to negotiate, the SBoHE should have nevertheless put together a tangible proposal and delivered it to the Tribal Council. Maybe it would have been ignored. Fine. At least they would have tried. They cannot say that right now.

That really would have put the onus on the Tribal Councils. If certain beneficial offers had been put forward, the councils would have to defend why they wouldn't take advantage of the mutually beneficial aspects this could bring to both UND and the tribes. They've been allowed to get away with a "no solicitation" sign until now.

It's a touchy situation, however, because if you come with an offer unbidden in this sort of politically charged situation you risk being charged with bribery. It has to be communicated very smartly to avoid having it turned against you.

[The Sicatoka]

Grant Shaft was in Chicago meeting with Tom Douple and we didn't know it until recently.

Do we know where else Grant Shaft may or may not have been and speaking with whom.

[Goon]

Grant Shaft was in Chicago meeting with Tom Douple and we didn't know it until recently.

Do we know where else Grant Shaft may or may not have been and speaking with whom.

Hum, now it's making more and more sense. This sounds like a chicago style shake down.

[Shawn-O]

Hum, now it's making more and more sense. This sounds like a chicago style shake down.

CUE THE SPOOKY MUSIC!

[82SiouxGuy]

CUE THE SPOOKY MUSIC!

Actual video footage of the meeting in Chicago.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Hum, now it's making more and more sense. This sounds like a chicago style shake down.

If it was there wouldn't have been any publicity until after the money changed hands.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

That really would have put the onus on the Tribal Councils. If certain beneficial offers had been put forward, the councils would have to defend why they wouldn't take advantage of the mutually beneficial aspects this could bring to both UND and the tribes. They've been allowed to get away with a "no solicitation" sign until now.

It's a touchy situation, however, because if you come with an offer unbidden in this sort of politically charged situation you risk being charged with bribery. It has to be communicated very smartly to avoid having it turned against you.

I don't disagree with any of this: but I don't understand why there weren't even any meetings

scheduled

.

Seems to me that right after the tribal referendum that went 2-1 for the nickname was finished, the time was right to schedule a sit-down with groups from both sides. Call it what you will but an exchange of "we want this" and "we're willing to give this" should have been started right then and there.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Without going back and looking at the old policy, I think you're probably right. I don't think the NCAA would place an otherwise fully compliant member on the Sanctions list if it's only "crime" was using a facility that had Native American imagry in it (at least not yet). The uproar at the time was that REA was scheduled to host the 2006 hockey regional, and the policy prohibited any facility with Native American imagry from hosting an NCAA championship event. The injunction took care of that and allowed the 2006 regional to go forward. The settlement relates to the UND hosting post season events at REA in the future. If REA doesn't want to host any more tournaments, I don't think anything needs to be changed. REA may come to the decision that hosting another regional was a long-shot anyway, so they won't change anything and won't bid for another tournament. But if they want to host another NCAA tournament, there is now a realistic road-map where it was impossible before the settlement.

Well, it would be very unfortunate if a great hockey area and passionate hockey fans aren't rewarded with post-season bids as they should be simply because of a bunch of nutcases at the NCAA. It would be hard to imagine a college-only facility that exceeds the quality that Englestad has. Going to a place with second-rate ice and blase fans because a extreme minority of bureaucrats (most of whom don't go to hockey tournaments ANYWAY) have a warped sense of "justice" wouldn't be fair to the players.

But as we've seen, fair's got nothin' to do with it.

[82SiouxGuy]

Well, it would be very unfortunate if a great hockey area and passionate hockey fans aren't rewarded with post-season bids as they should be simply because of a bunch of nutcases at the NCAA. It would be hard to imagine a college-only facility that exceeds the quality that Englestad has. Going to a place with second-rate ice and blase fans because a extreme minority of bureaucrats (most of whom don't go to hockey tournaments ANYWAY) have a warped sense of "justice" wouldn't be fair to the players.

But as we've seen, fair's got nothin' to do with it.

In hockey it may be a moot point. The NC$$ is trying to put all Division 1 hockey tournaments in "neutral" sites instead of the home arenas of colleges. So they are putting them in places like the Xcel Energy Center instead of on campus at Minnesota, or the Pepsi Center instead of Denver's home rink. If they follow through with that policy there is no way REA would host a hockey regional. Then it comes down to the potential of hosting volleyball or women's basketball either at the Ralph or the Betty.

Or maybe the NC$$ agrees to let the Ralph host 1 or 2 regionals as an incentive to make the changes.