fightingsiouxfan86 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 I don't usually get into these discussions, but I am making an exception for this one. Many of the odd man rushes against Boston College in 2008 were not because Finley made a mistake or was out of position. They were because Genoway was being overly aggressive on the offensive end and either lost the puck or was out of position. That left Finley going back to play a 2 on 1 against much quicker players. That is not a situation that works to Joe's advantage, although he ended up facing it quite often over the past couple of years with Genoway as a partner. I am not saying that Finley never made a mistake. And I am not saying that Genoway is a bad player. They are college kids and all of them make mistakes. But Finley was often blamed for plays where he was trying to cover up for someone else, he was just in place at the end of the play so it looked like he made the mistake. I'm not positive but isn't there a general rule of thumb when it comes to covering 2 on 1 rushes? I have heard this before but I'm not positive if it really exists. My understanding of it was that on a 2 man rush the D-man is supposed to cover the man without the puck and the goalie is supposed to focus on the guy with the puck... or is it the other way around? All I know is I have heard many people discuss this rule or whatever you wanna call it in regards to Finley doing a pretty bad job at following this guideline. I know for sure the UNH overtime goal was a good example of this... people kept saying he was covering the wrong guy. I never played hockey, I'm just an avid hockey fan so can someone who has played or knows about this idea fill me in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 I'm not positive but isn't there a general rule of thumb when it comes to covering 2 on 1 rushes? I have heard this before but I'm not positive if it really exists. My understanding of it was that on a 2 man rush the D-man is supposed to cover the man without the puck and the goalie is supposed to focus on the guy with the puck... or is it the other way around? All I know is I have heard many people discuss this rule or whatever you wanna call it in regards to Finley doing a pretty bad job at following this guideline. I know for sure the UNH overtime goal was a good example of this... people kept saying he was covering the wrong guy. I never played hockey, I'm just an avid hockey fan so can someone who has played or knows about this idea fill me in? On a two on one the defender has pass and I think the goalie is suppose to have the shot, but it does get messed up sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightingsiouxfan86 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 On a two on one the defender has pass and I think the goalie is suppose to have the shot, but it does get messed up sometimes. Thanks Goon! I've watched that final UNH overtime goal about a million times and everytime I see it I just feel like it was a complete breakdown of our defense... and I feel like I saw a lot of the same kind of thing happening in the semi-final frozen 4 game last year against BC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big A HG Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 I don't usually get into these discussions, but I am making an exception for this one. Many of the odd man rushes against Boston College in 2008 were not because Finley made a mistake or was out of position. They were because Genoway was being overly aggressive on the offensive end and either lost the puck or was out of position. That left Finley going back to play a 2 on 1 against much quicker players. That is not a situation that works to Joe's advantage, although he ended up facing it quite often over the past couple of years with Genoway as a partner. I am not saying that Finley never made a mistake. And I am not saying that Genoway is a bad player. They are college kids and all of them make mistakes. But Finley was often blamed for plays where he was trying to cover up for someone else, he was just in place at the end of the play so it looked like he made the mistake. Wow, that makes 2 of us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Wow, that makes 2 of us! I've been with you the whole time. Like I said, I don't usually get into these type discussions. Plus, you've usually done a really good job handling them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Thanks Goon! I've watched that final UNH overtime goal about a million times and everytime I see it I just feel like it was a complete breakdown of our defense... and I feel like I saw a lot of the same kind of thing happening in the semi-final frozen 4 game last year against BC? You feel like it was a complete breakdown of the defense, and yet you were blaming Finley for making the mistakes. Both games featured multiple mistakes in sequence that resulted in goals against UND. But because Finley was the last stand of defense before the goalie, he gets all of the blame whether he makes a mistake or not. Unfortunately, that's the way many people looked at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxforce19 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 This one time... I was in a cab with Joe Finley after a night out. After he got dropped off this girl started going off about how he was the reason we didn't go to the frozen four. And here I am, rolling my eyes, thinking... "yes, because one person is totally to blame for a team giving up 6 goals." Anyways, I still maintain that one person is not to blame for mistakes because EVERYONE makes them at some point. Collectively, as a team, you lose a game. There is usually more than one reason for a loss. The UNH game, you could say that it was Finley's fault on that one goal, but really, we were up 5-3 in that game in the 3rd, so clearly other stuff happened to contribute to losing the game. Win as a team, lose as a team. And that's all I need to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big A HG Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 This one time... I was in a cab with Joe Finley after a night out. After he got dropped off this girl started going off about how he was the reason we didn't go to the frozen four. And here I am, rolling my eyes, thinking... "yes, because one person is totally to blame for a team giving up 6 goals." Anyways, I still maintain that one person is not to blame for mistakes because EVERYONE makes them at some point. Collectively, as a team, you lose a game. There is usually more than one reason for a loss. The UNH game, you could say that it was Finley's fault on that one goal, but really, we were up 5-3 in that game in the 3rd, so clearly other stuff happened to contribute to losing the game. Win as a team, lose as a team. And that's all I need to say. Did she say it to his face or say it after he left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxweet Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 this blaming joe thing for our unh loss is ridiculous. why don't we just start blaming duncan for losing the face off that led to the tying goal. people that want to blame one person for a loss don't know the game. sure one player may have made a mistake that led to a winning or tying goal but there are 60 minutes in a hockey game and if a team is in a close game s@#@ happens at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZSIOUX Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 this blaming joe thing for our unh loss is ridiculous. why don't we just start blaming duncan for losing the face off that led to the tying goal. people that want to blame one person for a loss don't know the game. sure one player may have made a mistake that led to a winning or tying goal but there are 60 minutes in a hockey game and if a team is in a close game s@#@ happens at the end. exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 You feel like it was a complete breakdown of the defense, and yet you were blaming Finley for making the mistakes. Both games featured multiple mistakes in sequence that resulted in goals against UND. But because Finley was the last stand of defense before the goalie, he gets all of the blame whether he makes a mistake or not. Unfortunately, that's the way many people looked at it. I agree with you 82Siouxguy I still think the Sioux as a team failed to play a good game, they had a let down. I don't think I would should blame one person for the loss at Manchester, the goaltending wasn't good, the forwards didn't keep the puck deep and cycle as well as they could have, the defensive corps also was off. The Sioux sucked as a team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxforce19 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Did she say it to his face or say it after he left? Obviously after he left... if she would have said it to his face I probably would have interjected with some comments of my own. It was a long night, so I decided to keep a lid on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxweet Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 I agree with you 82Siouxguy I still think the Sioux as a team failed to play a good game, they had a let down. I don't think I would should blame one person for the loss at Manchester, the goaltending wasn't good, the forwards didn't keep the puck deep and cycle as well as they could have, the defensive corps also was off. The Sioux sucked as a team. We played well that game for 20 minutes. from midway through the second to midway through the third. the frustrating part was that UNH couldn't keep up with us. we let them stay in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 We played well that game for 20 minutes. from midway through the second to midway through the third. the frustrating part was that UNH couldn't keep up with us. we let them stay in the game. I agree UND was the better team and we should have clamped it down when it was 5-3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I think many of you are now singing the same tune I have been for a while (though I'm not sure you've exactly changed over... I'm pretty sure 82 and Big A have been singing the tune for as long as I have) regarding Finley and defense. I'm often criticized because I won't criticize players for bad games or bad plays. I admit that part of it is because I'm flagrantly a homer. But the other part is exactly this: Sports that feature one one one action (Boxing, tennis, golfing, bowling, billiards, etc.) are sports where you can point your finger at one person and cite reasons for a loss or a win. Team sports are not that way at all. When UND gives up 6 goals for whatever reasons, I blame the team for not playing 60 minutes of hockey. I don't care if Finley coughed it up or misplayed the puck or Genoway did this or Duncan did that or LaPoint stuck a stick up his whatever. It's irrelevant. Why? Because all that matters in the big picture are wins and losses. If the Sioux lost 10 games during the regular season, does it matter how they lost? Does it make that big of a difference if they lose 2-1 in OT or 20-0 in regulation? A loss is a loss. I want to see the entire team playing well, but mistakes happen. When they do, the team has to be ready and back it up. If they don't, often the team pays the price. It's no different if it is the Sioux, Gophers, Red Wings, Penguins, whatever. Even the greatest teams in sports history got shelacked a few times. Whatever though. Finley is the last D standing on the plays as it's been said. So he gets the blame. I'm sure LaPoint, Blood, Fienhage, or MacWilliam will take over the reigns from Finley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxhockeyfan11 Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I think many of you are now singing the same tune I have been for a while (though I'm not sure you've exactly changed over... I'm pretty sure 82 and Big A have been singing the tune for as long as I have) regarding Finley and defense. I'm often criticized because I won't criticize players for bad games or bad plays. I admit that part of it is because I'm flagrantly a homer. But the other part is exactly this: Sports that feature one one one action (Boxing, tennis, golfing, bowling, billiards, etc.) are sports where you can point your finger at one person and cite reasons for a loss or a win. Team sports are not that way at all. When UND gives up 6 goals for whatever reasons, I blame the team for not playing 60 minutes of hockey. I don't care if Finley coughed it up or misplayed the puck or Genoway did this or Duncan did that or LaPoint stuck a stick up his whatever. It's irrelevant. Why? Because all that matters in the big picture are wins and losses. If the Sioux lost 10 games during the regular season, does it matter how they lost? Does it make that big of a difference if they lose 2-1 in OT or 20-0 in regulation? A loss is a loss. I want to see the entire team playing well, but mistakes happen. When they do, the team has to be ready and back it up. If they don't, often the team pays the price. It's no different if it is the Sioux, Gophers, Red Wings, Penguins, whatever. Even the greatest teams in sports history got shelacked a few times. Whatever though. Finley is the last D standing on the plays as it's been said. So he gets the blame. I'm sure LaPoint, Blood, Fienhage, or MacWilliam will take over the reigns from Finley. I like the post and agree with most points accept for the won about losses...some losses make teams hungry while some other ones can be deflating a loss at home after leading 3-0 for example would be a major let down where as a loss on the road in a hostile environment is sometimes easier to swallow, just my two cents. I do agree that a loss is a loss and a single player should not be blamed but some losses effect team morale to a more sever degree then other do IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightingsiouxfan86 Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I agree that you really cannot blaim one player for a win or loss because it takes a team to make or break a game. No one persons mistake can be held responsible for the outcome. That being said, I do not believe it's a bad habbit to point out weak spots in the game or player. Acknowleding those mistakes is what makes you realize where improvements need to be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I agree that the entire team is responsible for defense, and outside of some glaring mistakes, many defensive lapses are the result of several players. UND has a combination of offensive and stay at home players - however the combinations don't always work. Sometimes one defenseman (many times Finley) is hung out to dry. What strikes me, however, is the total defensive breakdown we have had the last many years during our season ending loss. From goaltending to foreward play to defensemen, we have collectively looked horrible - usually one of our worst games of the season. How we can play so well at the end of the season and look like this is beyond me. I feel that this is the hump we need to get over in order to get # 8. Personally, I would like to return to the hard-hitting defenses of the past. While we have some physical players, top to bottom we don't hit like we used to. I'm getting restless for # 8 - We need put it all together this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I agree that the entire team is responsible for defense, and outside of some glaring mistakes, many defensive lapses are the result of several players. UND has a combination of offensive and stay at home players - however the combinations don't always work. Sometimes one defenseman (many times Finley) is hung out to dry. Don't tell that to the Finley haters. Wait till next season when they find out the team will miss having Finley back there. In retrospect I wonder if the Finley Genoway paring might have been better served being broken up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAR Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Don't tell that to the Finley haters. Wait till next season when they find out the team will miss having Finley back there. In retrospect I wonder if the Finley Genoway paring might have been better served being broken up. Genoway will be with Blood next year....Pointer and Marto on the second paring with Fienaghe et all on the 3rd pairing...Our d corps should be fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big A HG Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 Genoway will be with Blood next year....Pointer and Marto on the second paring with Fienaghe et all on the 3rd pairing...Our d corps should be fine We'll see how MacWilliam does following his shoulder surgery, which turned out to be worse than originally thought. He should be ready for the season, but shoulder problems plagued Forney's NCAA career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big A HG Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 Don't tell that to the Finley haters. Wait till next season when they find out the team will miss having Finley back there. In retrospect I wonder if the Finley Genoway paring might have been better served being broken up. People would still have found reasons to hate Finley, and then actually have a second defenseman to beat-up after he (whoever it may be) got schooled trying to stop countless 2 on 1's and 3 on 1's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 We'll see how MacWilliam does following his shoulder surgery, which turned out to be worse than originally thought. He should be ready for the season, but shoulder problems plagued Forney's NCAA career. That is bad news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodak hockey fanatic Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 did inch.com do a top ten reasons ss.com posters threw finley under the bus (or the flip side, top ten reasons it was all genoways fault)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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