So is Fargo now officially a Hockey Town?

[Big A HG]

I don't know if you realized this, but there are over 300 DI basketball teams in 31 auto-bid conferences.

You can't play everyone every season.

So why are you trying to use that as an excuse to hold back new membership?

Your point against expansion is valid. But once you let Bemidji State in the door, you pretty much have to add a 12th team as well. NDSU, if fully committed to DI hockey, would be as good or better than any other possible school that might apply for that 12th spot. NDSU would certainly need to make the commitment now, but it probably wouldn't need to actually field a team until the 10-11 season. BSU probably won't be in the WCHA until the 12-13 season. If NDSU started a team in 10-11, it could play a couple independent seasons and then join the WCHA with Bemidji. But it's all a moot point because NDSU isn't going to add hockey.

I'm all for expansion in college hockey (minus Canadian teams). There are problems with this where hockey stands right now. There is no conference room at the moment right now. And, there are better schools to help expand college hockey than NDSU. If NDSU added hockey, there wouldn't be anyone unknown to how fun college hockey is that would all of a sudden understand it. NDSU fans all know about Sioux hockey, so you're not really expanding much. Other schools like Penn State or Illinois would grow the game far more than NDSU. I'm not saying because NDSU wouldn't contribute much should mean they shouldn't join, but NDSU is a poor fit right now in the grand scheme of college hockey.

Assuming Bemidji will be the 11th team, and assuming we'll add a 12th team, there is still no room at the moment. UAH is still looking for a home. CCHA is the best option for UAH (WCHA is THEIR second choice). If the CCHA does their part in adding UAH, and allow a team like UNM or UNO to leave and join the WCHA, both conferences are still full at 12.

There's just no room for NDSU, and that's college hockey's fault. With an unconvinced fan-base though, it makes it difficult for any foreward movement to happen at NDSU. There's no rink set in stone, and there isn't enough room to share with Fargo at the UPC.

This has all been discussed and mentioned, so please read previous posts. If NDSU can guarantee themselves a successful program that won't lose money, and they can find a rink to play in, and someone can find room for them, then I'm all for them joining the D1 college hockey ranks. But, until then, NDSU is a long ways from joining D1 hockey. They're about 10 years too late right now with the way the conferences are alligned in D1 hockey. IF a Big Ten conference were to form, and NDSU had proof and the resources to start D1 hockey, that'd be their best opportunity.

[Hammersmith]

Funny you bring that up? When I voted in favor of the Fargodome part of the pitch was hockey and they even had in the selling points that 40 nights a year were set aside for hockey(high school and NDSU). You mean they lied to us and the Dome isn't capable of having hockey?

I think NDSU having hockey would be fantastic and it should have been done 15 years ago.

As far as where they play, the UP Center would be a pretty good venue when you consider the suites there are tailor made for a hockey arena and of course beer sales at an off campus site.

Pardon me for going into teacher mode, but the Fargodome and hockey is an often misunderstood fact. During the planning stages, it was clear that the most profitable events for the Fargodome were to be large concerts, followed by large trade shows and big football games, and finishing with small concerts, small events and hockey. The target for the Fargodome was to be 100 event-days per year, with as many of those days filled with the first and second categories of events as possible. Hockey was included in the discussion as part public relations and part last resort. When the dome opened, it was managing 115+ event-days per year without hockey. Even at today's 95-100 event-days per year, hockey would be a net money loser for the dome. The time and labor it would take to set up and tear down the ice, and the small crowds any regular hockey would bring, means that the dome is better off bringing in small concerts and trade shows or even leaving the dome empty. Each management company that has operated the dome has run the numbers and they all come out the same: hockey would cost more money than it would bring in.

On top of that, the designers of the Fargodome made a pretty bad mistake in regards to hockey. While they installed all the needed piping under the floor, and plumbed and wired locations for compressors, they screwed up on the floor itself. If you are going to have ice, you need somewhere for the ice to go. That means a depression in the floor. They forgot that. The Fargodome floor is flat and there is no lip around the perimeter. To install ice, they would need to erect a temporary barrier around the rink every time, or dig out the area and reconfigure that half of the dome's floor. The first option is cheap up front, but would be costly in labor over the long run. The second option is costly to begin with, but would be much faster and cheaper down the road. Either way, the costs would be $1-3 million up front(this was investigated back around 2000 when NDSU was considering hockey and the city was considering a separate hockey arena).

There is a slight possibility that regular hockey will come to the Fargodome in the future, but it depends on two events. First, the basketball addition must be constructed to take some events away from the main floor. The goal of that plan is to increase the number of event-days of the new complex to around 150 combined, while only increasing the operating costs by something like 15-25%. By pulling the small concerts, small trade shows, and basketball events into the arena, it would free up enough days for hockey. The second major requirement would be a hockey program that outgrows the UP Center. Whether that program is the Force(doubtful) or NDSU hockey, an average attendance of 7,000+ would be enough to make an overall profit. Regardless, we're years(decades?) away from these scenarios playing out.

One last thing: NDSU hockey requires three events to succeed. An arena, a conference, and the financial resources to compete with the UNDs and Gophers of the hockey world. Those three things have never aligned. When NDSU had the money(just before the DI move), there was no arena or conference. At the moment, there might be a conference and there is an arena, but NDSU is still working through the DI upgrade and doesn't have the excess money to start up a competitive program. By the time NDSU has the money ready, the conference possibilities will have likely closed. I don't have anything against NDSU hockey, per se, but it can't come at the expense of the health of the entire athletic department.

[MplsBison]

I'm all for expansion in college hockey (minus Canadian teams). There are problems with this where hockey stands right now. There is no conference room at the moment right now. And, there are better schools to help expand college hockey than NDSU. If NDSU added hockey, there wouldn't be anyone unknown to how fun college hockey is that would all of a sudden understand it. NDSU fans all know about Sioux hockey, so you're not really expanding much. Other schools like Penn State or Illinois would grow the game far more than NDSU. I'm not saying because NDSU wouldn't contribute much should mean they shouldn't join, but NDSU is a poor fit right now in the grand scheme of college hockey.

Assuming Bemidji will be the 11th team, and assuming we'll add a 12th team, there is still no room at the moment. UAH is still looking for a home. CCHA is the best option for UAH (WCHA is THEIR second choice). If the CCHA does their part in adding UAH, and allow a team like UNM or UNO to leave and join the WCHA, both conferences are still full at 12.

There's just no room for NDSU, and that's college hockey's fault. With an unconvinced fan-base though, it makes it difficult for any foreward movement to happen at NDSU. There's no rink set in stone, and there isn't enough room to share with Fargo at the UPC.

This has all been discussed and mentioned, so please read previous posts. If NDSU can guarantee themselves a successful program that won't lose money, and they can find a rink to play in, and someone can find room for them, then I'm all for them joining the D1 college hockey ranks. But, until then, NDSU is a long ways from joining D1 hockey. They're about 10 years too late right now with the way the conferences are alligned in D1 hockey. IF a Big Ten conference were to form, and NDSU had proof and the resources to start D1 hockey, that'd be their best opportunity.

There is room, the WCHA will expand to 12. You even said so yourself.

UAH will probably fold their program with this economy. The CCHA is not going to be that much cheaper.

[MplsBison]

Pardon me for going into teacher mode, but the Fargodome and hockey is an often misunderstood fact. During the planning stages, it was clear that the most profitable events for the Fargodome were to be large concerts, followed by large trade shows and big football games, and finishing with small concerts, small events and hockey. The target for the Fargodome was to be 100 event-days per year, with as many of those days filled with the first and second categories of events as possible. Hockey was included in the discussion as part public relations and part last resort. When the dome opened, it was managing 115+ event-days per year without hockey. Even at today's 95-100 event-days per year, hockey would be a net money loser for the dome. The time and labor it would take to set up and tear down the ice, and the small crowds any regular hockey would bring, means that the dome is better off bringing in small concerts and trade shows or even leaving the dome empty. Each management company that has operated the dome has run the numbers and they all come out the same: hockey would cost more money than it would bring in.

On top of that, the designers of the Fargodome made a pretty bad mistake in regards to hockey. While they installed all the needed piping under the floor, and plumbed and wired locations for compressors, they screwed up on the floor itself. If you are going to have ice, you need somewhere for the ice to go. That means a depression in the floor. They forgot that. The Fargodome floor is flat and there is no lip around the perimeter. To install ice, they would need to erect a temporary barrier around the rink every time, or dig out the area and reconfigure that half of the dome's floor. The first option is cheap up front, but would be costly in labor over the long run. The second option is costly to begin with, but would be much faster and cheaper down the road. Either way, the costs would be $1-3 million up front(this was investigated back around 2000 when NDSU was considering hockey and the city was considering a separate hockey arena).

There is a slight possibility that regular hockey will come to the Fargodome in the future, but it depends on two events. First, the basketball addition must be constructed to take some events away from the main floor. The goal of that plan is to increase the number of event-days of the new complex to around 150 combined, while only increasing the operating costs by something like 15-25%. By pulling the small concerts, small trade shows, and basketball events into the arena, it would free up enough days for hockey. The second major requirement would be a hockey program that outgrows the UP Center. Whether that program is the Force(doubtful) or NDSU hockey, an average attendance of 7,000+ would be enough to make an overall profit. Regardless, we're years(decades?) away from these scenarios playing out.

One last thing: NDSU hockey requires three events to succeed. An arena, a conference, and the financial resources to compete with the UNDs and Gophers of the hockey world. Those three things have never aligned. When NDSU had the money(just before the DI move), there was no arena or conference. At the moment, there might be a conference and there is an arena, but NDSU is still working through the DI upgrade and doesn't have the excess money to start up a competitive program. By the time NDSU has the money ready, the conference possibilities will have likely closed. I don't have anything against NDSU hockey, per se, but it can't come at the expense of the health of the entire athletic department.

But you are emotionally (and financially?) invested in keeping the new Fargodome arena from having hockey capabilities, even though it would not alter the basketball watching experience in the slightest, as I have proven with photos of the lower levels of NBA arenas that have both bball and hockey capabilities. The Fargodome arena could very realistically be built as nothing more than a lower level of an NBA arena.

You even purposefully forget to mention that as a possibility here.

It's on the table and I could care less if that pisses you off. Good.

[mksioux]

I'm all for expansion in college hockey (minus Canadian teams). There are problems with this where hockey stands right now. There is no conference room at the moment right now. And, there are better schools to help expand college hockey than NDSU. If NDSU added hockey, there wouldn't be anyone unknown to how fun college hockey is that would all of a sudden understand it. NDSU fans all know about Sioux hockey, so you're not really expanding much. Other schools like Penn State or Illinois would grow the game far more than NDSU. I'm not saying because NDSU wouldn't contribute much should mean they shouldn't join, but NDSU is a poor fit right now in the grand scheme of college hockey.

Obviously there are schools that would expand college hockey better than NDSU. But none of them are going to be applying to the WCHA. (NDSU isn't either, but we're arguing about a hypothetical situation where NDSU was interested). I've only heard of one school in the entire country that is considering adding college hockey (Penn State) and they will never apply to the WCHA. In my opinion, the only schools that might apply to the WCHA (other than BSU) are Alabama-Huntsville and maybe Nebraska-Omaha. All I'm saying is that a fully-committed NDSU would easily be a better choice than Alabama-Huntsville and would be just as good as (IMO better than) UNO.

Assuming Bemidji will be the 11th team, and assuming we'll add a 12th team, there is still no room at the moment. UAH is still looking for a home. CCHA is the best option for UAH (WCHA is THEIR second choice). If the CCHA does their part in adding UAH, and allow a team like UNM or UNO to leave and join the WCHA, both conferences are still full at 12.

You're making an assumption that the WCHA would "do its part" and make sure every college hockey program has a home before considering an expansion team. I think the WCHA would look out for its own interest first and pick the best available school. If there was a school out there that was committed to expansion and was a better fit than UAH or UNO, the WCHA should go with the expansion team.

There's just no room for NDSU, and that's college hockey's fault. With an unconvinced fan-base though, it makes it difficult for any foreward movement to happen at NDSU. There's no rink set in stone, and there isn't enough room to share with Fargo at the UPC.

I agree there won't be room a year from now after the WCHA has added BSU and UAH/UNO as the 11th and 12th teams. But if NDSU acted immediately and applied before the deadline, I think there would be room. And I don't see any reason NDSU couldn't share a rink with the Force.

This has all been discussed and mentioned, so please read previous posts. If NDSU can guarantee themselves a successful program that won't lose money, and they can find a rink to play in, and someone can find room for them, then I'm all for them joining the D1 college hockey ranks. But, until then, NDSU is a long ways from joining D1 hockey. They're about 10 years too late right now with the way the conferences are alligned in D1 hockey. IF a Big Ten conference were to form, and NDSU had proof and the resources to start D1 hockey, that'd be their best opportunity.

I've never argued NDSU is anywhere close to adding hockey. To the contrary, I don't think they will ever add hockey. I was simply arguing about a hypothetical situation where NDSU was ready, willing, and able to start a hockey program and applied to the WCHA before the March 31 deadline. IF that were the case, they would get serious consideration by the WCHA and, IMO, they would get the 12th spot.

[MplsBison]

Obviously there are schools that would expand college hockey better than NDSU. But none of them are going to be applying to the WCHA. (NDSU isn't either, but we're arguing about a hypothetical situation where NDSU was interested). I've only heard of one school in the entire country that is considering adding college hockey (Penn State) and they will never apply to the WCHA. In my opinion, the only schools that might apply to the WCHA (other than BSU) are Alabama-Huntsville and maybe Nebraska-Omaha. All I'm saying is that a fully-committed NDSU would easily be a better choice than Alabama-Huntsville and would be just as good as (IMO better than) UNO.

You're making an assumption that the WCHA would "do its part" and make sure every college hockey program has a home before considering an expansion team. I think the WCHA would look out for its own interest first and pick the best available school. If there was a school out there that was committed to expansion and was a better fit than UAH or UNO, the WCHA should go with the expansion team.

I agree there won't be room a year from now after the WCHA has added BSU and UAH/UNO as the 11th and 12th teams. But if NDSU acted immediately and applied before the deadline, I think there would be room. And I don't see any reason NDSU couldn't share a rink with the Force.

I've never argued NDSU is anywhere close to adding hockey. To the contrary, I don't think they will ever add hockey. I was simply arguing about a hypothetical situation where NDSU was ready, willing, and able to start a hockey program and applied to the WCHA before the March 31 deadline. IF that were the case, they would get serious consideration by the WCHA and, IMO, they would get the 12th spot.

You're wasting your time.

He's emotionally invested in keeping North Dakota a one college hockey team state, even at the cost of the WCHA.

[LeftyZL]

Women's hockey, of course. Don't the majority of schools with men's D1 hockey also have women's hockey?

So you'd add a money-draining program on with an expansion men's hockey that will be money-draining as well, at least short term?

I don't believe there is a money-making D-1 Women's hockey program out there.

Heck Dave, maybe Obama will throw NDSU a bone?

[Herd]

It was been stated again and again in the Omaha papers by fans and program people . . . UNO's preferernce and choice is the CCHA, their current home. Omaha fans much prefer games against Michigan, Michigan St, Ohio St, ND (the football powders of DI) versus the WCHA teams. They actually pass out 3-D glasses to big red fans who then see the puck 10x larger than normal and oblong.

Just the Facts: (for MPLS to begin absorbing)

UNO doesn't want the WCHA

WCHA doesn't want UAH

Bemidji will most likely get admission to an 11 team WCHA

NDSU is not close or interested in hockey at this time

What else is there to say . . . not much! It would be good for MPLS not to post every erroneous thought that crosses his mind.

[star2city]

It was been stated again and again in the Omaha papers by fans and program people . . . UNO's preference and choice is the CCHA, their current home. Omaha fans much prefer games against Michigan, Michigan St, Ohio St, ND (the football powders of DI) versus the WCHA teams. They actually pass out 3-D glasses to big red fans who then see the puck 10x larger than normal and oblong.

Just the Facts: (for MPLS to begin absorbing)

UNO doesn't want the WCHA

WCHA doesn't want UAH

Bemidji will most likely get admission to an 11 team WCHA

NDSU is not close or interested in hockey at this time

What else is there to say . . . not much! It would be good for MPLS not to post every erroneous thought that crosses his mind.

From a cost standpoint, UNO has to be looking at the WCHA (even if they are being coy about it). First, travel would be so much easier in the WCHA, as it becomes essentially a bus league for them. Second, and almost more important, is the revenue the UNO could make from visiting WCHA fans. Because of distance and because few CCHA school grads reside in Omaha, there's not much ticket demand from rival fans. One of the revenue drivers in the WCHA is rival fans buying tickets, keeping demand and prices up. Omaha's city leadership (not just UNO leaders) would love to see a thousand or more visiting fans staying downtown during an UNO WCHA weekends.

[star2city]

Women's hockey, of course. Don't the majority of schools with men's D1 hockey also have women's hockey?

No DI men's program in either Michigan or Colorado have a corresponding DI women's program. Title IX doesn't require identical sports, just proportional opportunities. NDSU will not be adding men's hockey anytime soon, but if they theoretically did, women's equestrian would most likely be added simultaneously.

[sultan]

I see where the Fargo Force had an attendance of 4393 last night. I also couldn't help but notice that the big rivalry game between NDSU and SDSU had an attendance of 2644 last night(1000 were Rabbit fans). Looks like Hockey is king in Fargo. It is good to see that the rivalry game with SDSU is sure becoming a major event in Fargo. I thought NDSU was done with their transition.

[tjbison]

I see where the Fargo Force had an attendance of 4393 last night. I also couldn't help but notice that the big rivalry game between NDSU and SDSU had an attendance of 2644 last night(1000 were Rabbit fans). Looks like Hockey is king in Fargo. It is good to see that the rivalry game with SDSU is sure becoming a major event in Fargo. I thought NDSU was done with their transition.

Nice try, but look at the attendence of the Mens game last Saturday for the Bunny game!

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

Nice try, but look at the attendence of the Mens game last Saturday for the Bunny game!

What was it?

[MplsBison]

What was it?

~6k

[sultan]

Nice try, but look at the attendence of the Mens game last Saturday for the Bunny game!

The attendance was better for your men's game because the Force weren't playing in Fargo that night. Since you guys are done with your transition you really should support both your basketball teams. Nice try.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

This debate is going to go for years.... No telling when it will end.

[Hammersmith]

The attendance was better for your men's game because the Force weren't playing in Fargo that night. Since you guys are done with your transition you really should support both your basketball teams. Nice try.

Oh, come on.

1. NDSU women are having a relatively down year with only 7 scholarship players healthy to play

+

2. SDSU women are ranked 18th or 22nd in the nation depending on which poll you use

+

3. NDSU men were playing Wisconsin-Milwaukee in an ESPNU BracketBuster game at the same time

=

Expected blowout with hardcore Bison fans staying home to listen to the men's game

Perhaps you guys should start supporting your men's team more. Take away the doubleheaders where your women boost the attendance, and your men drew slightly less than our women and our men drew 3 times as many. (UND men sans dh: 1163; NDSU women: 1229 with one game left; NDSU men: 3596)

I don't really mean that first sentence(though the second one is true), but sultan trying to suggest that Force games, or the lack thereof, are a major factor in NDSU attendance is just ludicrous.

[star2city]

Perhaps you guys should start supporting your men's team more. Take away the doubleheaders where your women boost the attendance, and your men drew slightly less than our women and our men drew 3 times as many. (UND men sans dh: 1163; NDSU women: 1229 with one game left; NDSU men: 3596)

To be fair to the UND men's team, at the same time in the transition, UND compares very favorably.

Without the SDSU and Northern Iowa games, NDSU women would barely be drawing 1000. Both UND and NDSU women have struggled with injuries, have similar records, but NDSU has an actual conference to play in and has had DI games at home. It just seems NDSU's women's team has lost its connection with the community. UND men's team seemingly lost that connection, but it is being rebuilt, slowly but surely.

What is surprising is that a Top 25 women's team, the main rival SDSU nonetheless, could only draw 2644. NDSU fans want games against ranked opponents, yet don't turn out. A UND-NDSU women's game could practically double that.

[sultan]

Oh, come on.

1. NDSU women are having a relatively down year with only 7 scholarship players healthy to play

+

2. SDSU women are ranked 18th or 22nd in the nation depending on which poll you use

+

3. NDSU men were playing Wisconsin-Milwaukee in an ESPNU BracketBuster game at the same time

=

Expected blowout with hardcore Bison fans staying home to listen to the men's game

Perhaps you guys should start supporting your men's team more. Take away the doubleheaders where your women boost the attendance, and your men drew slightly less than our women and our men drew 3 times as many. (UND men sans dh: 1163; NDSU women: 1229 with one game left; NDSU men: 3596)

I don't really mean that first sentence(though the second one is true), but sultan trying to suggest that Force games, or the lack thereof, are a major factor in NDSU attendance is just ludicrous.

Are you serious? You have the number 18th ranked team in NCAA Division 1 coming into your barn. That is all the more reason sports fans would want to come out to the game. And SDSU is your arch rival. Remember you guys are done with your transtition. Your excitement is supposed to be at an all time high. UND is just starting our transtion. As far as your men's team, get a headset.