Nickname committee formed

[Hawkster]

PS:I can't wait 15 years when RICK "His dad's horse was Thunder but mine broke his leg and became Alpo " has to research a paper on his own people and does a google search for "fighting sioux" and ALL he gets are old YOUTUBE Sioux Hockey videos...what goes around comes around!

Your blatantly racist comments are indeed proof of why the Lakota peoples are demanding you stop using the Sioux name. You are not honoring anything with your outbursts but rather are demeaning an entire culture. Yes, a name like "His Horse Is Thundar" is odd, but remember, we, the white people made them change their names from the historical language they once used. Yet another atrocity that was committed when that happened.

[redwing77]

Your blatantly racist comments are indeed proof of why the Lakota peoples are demanding you stop using the Sioux name. You are not honoring anything with your outbursts but rather are demeaning an entire culture. Yes, a name like "His Horse Is Thundar" is odd, but remember, we, the white people made them change their names from the historical language they once used. Yet another atrocity that was committed when that happened.

But this post directly personifies the problem at hand. We're busy attacking the institution for the actions of individuals. The individuals aren't punish as much as the entire institution.

So let's take guns.

If we ban guns, will murder cease to exist in the US? Nope. Because guns are tools used in that heinous crime. It doesn't eliminate it. Attack the problem itself: people's attitudes and then worry about institutions.

What about those people who properly use guns and don't kill people? What did they do wrong other than buying a gun?

Racists exist. No institution name change will change that. It won't even improve it. It's even possible it will exacerbate the problem.

What would have been better would have been to compromise and work with the University to make something work. There is no intention by the tribes to do anything like that. So, please... just go back to your usually schedule bellyaching. You've won. Go live it up off the board.

[administrator]

Nice, poke fun of a native persons name

Agreed -- mocking a person's name for being of a different ethnic heritage is not only pretty rude and undermining to one's own arguments, it's pushing the boundaries of the forum rules.

Everyone should acquaint themselves with the Forum Terms and Rules and remember that while all viewpoints are welcome in this discussion, slurs and racism are not.

[Hawkster]

So, please... just go back to your usually schedule bellyaching. You've won. Go live it up off the board.

Mocking people who support a change doesn't help anything. It further highlights the fallacy that the University of North Dakota is somehow committed to "honoring" the Sioux name. Obviously you are only pursuing your own interests and not the cultural interests of an autonomous nation.

[star2city]

Mocking people who support a change doesn't help anything. It further highlights the fallacy that the University of North Dakota is somehow committed to "honoring" the Sioux name. Obviously you are only pursuing your own interests and not the cultural interests of an autonomous nation.

For the specific person mentioned, His Horse is Thunder became his name when he legally changed it as an adult. Perhaps it is a family name, but, nevertheless, it also potentially speaks of psychological grandiosity of a politician. IMHO, that was the context in which the name was brought in, not because of the (possible) ethnicity of it.

FYI, do you know the ethnicity of the person you just accused of mocking an ethnic group? As for assuming everyone on this board is a WASP - "we - the white people" shows an amazing amount of arrogance and ethnic insensitivity on your part.

[Goon]

Hey lets have a vote if they Sioux people don't want it change it. However, Ron His Horse Thunder won't allow the vote to go forward.

I wonder why? I have come to the cross roads where I am sick and tired of listening to all of the bickering. If the name changes will that be the end of the

complaining about the Fighting Sioux name? What comes next?

[redwing77]

Mocking people who support a change doesn't help anything. It further highlights the fallacy that the University of North Dakota is somehow committed to "honoring" the Sioux name. Obviously you are only pursuing your own interests and not the cultural interests of an autonomous nation.

I'm mocking the Sioux people?

How so?

How do you function in life? Has the victim mentality overwhelmed your sense of personal responsibility?

If a police officer pulls you over for going 75 in a 55, do you countersue him for racism because you are Native American?

If you screw up in some way and lose a contract at work or even you job based upon the actions you made, do you blame your boss for being racist?

Why can't I have a simple conversation for which I disagree with someone without it being blanket rated?

Why is it that people like you are reviled? Is it because of racism? Or is it because we're called racist if we disagree with you regardless of how civil we state our disagreement?

You need to start dealing with people as people, not as races, ethnicities, or minority vs majority. I'm sick and tired of people who come on this board and start preaching about change and, when someone disagrees with them, they're accused of anything and everything.

So, if it makes you happy, I call myself a racist because I continuously dare to disagree with certain N.A. posters on this site.

I'm definitely a WASP....if WASP stands for Russo-Polish Jewish Grandson of a Holocaust survivor.

So I guess I get to call you Anti-Semitic! Works for me.

[The Sicatoka]

It's time for ... "WWDLS?"

Yes, that funfilled game ... "What would Denis Leary Say?"

[about people who complain their lives haven't turned out the way they wanted]

"Hey, join the ******* club! I thought I was going to be the starting center fielder for the Boston Red Sox!"

and, in closing he'd say ...

Life sucks, get a ******* helmet, okay?

It's going to suck bad for both sides of this unless something radically changes in the next few months. Funny, but only one side seems to realize that (the other seems to think the world will be all duckies and bunnies if a school changes a piece of artwork on a shirt).

Tighten that chin strap.

And thus ends today's installment of WWDLS.

[Sioux-per Villain]

Hey lets have a vote if they Sioux people don't want it change it. However, Ron His Horse Thunder won't allow the vote to go forward.

I wonder why? I have come to the cross roads where I am sick and tired of listening to all of the bickering. If the name changes will that be the end of the

complaining about the Fighting Sioux name? What comes next?

I just hope the name changes before I make my annual donatations to the university this spring. I think I can find better ways to spend it.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

But this post directly personifies the problem at hand. We're busy attacking the institution for the actions of individuals.

...Racists exist. No institution name change will change that. It won't even improve it...

C'mon, you know the drill by now. All problems are caused by the nickname. Anything good that occurs happens in spite of the nickname. Blah, blah, blah. Someone (

ANYONE

-be they North Dakota fan or foe) posts something on a message board, and all hell breaks loose: and of course it's all caused by the nickname.

It's all been said before.

"Autonomous nation": yes, with border guards, passports and visas, exchange deficits or surplus, membership in OAS, UN and NATO....gotcha.

"We the white people made them change their name..." And it therefore follows that we the white people allowed them to change their name back to whatever they wanted. Personally, I feel closer to the second "we" then the first. I mean, "we" have done so many bad things throughout the course of history. Many more bad things than the good things "we" have made. Or perhaps somehow the good things occured in spite of us. Again, blah, blah, blah. Been there, heard that. Makes no more sense this time than all the times before. It won't stop the jokers who say it from trying it every time though.

"Atrocity" in referring to a name change.

I mean, that says it all as far as overreaction and the delusion that

EVERYTHING

is caused by the name.

So I guess I get to call you Anti-Semitic!

Obviously you're missing the point; your anger is being misdirected, you need to blame the nickname!

BTW, you forgot to throw in the reference which traditionally ends all threads.

[ScottM]

I just hope the name changes before I make my annual donatations to the university this spring. I think I can find better ways to spend it.

Hookers and blow?

[redwing77]

I didn't forget, I omitted.

Far be it for me to egg on someone like the person I quoted, but I'd love to hear their response.

I personally don't feel that they have much of a response to counter my claims other than to call me a racist (something I've already acknowledged) and "appeal" to my inner Mao.

[Oxbow6]

Hookers and blow?

Even in a poor economy, people have priorities!!

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I didn't forget, I omitted.

Far be it for me to egg on someone like the person I quoted, but I'd love to hear their response.

I personally don't feel that they have much of a response to counter my claims other than to call me a racist (something I've already acknowledged) and "appeal" to my inner Mao.

As you noted, I think you've already heard the response: it's contained in most of the posts made both now as well as those posted months ago.

I've probably heard almost everything possible aimed at one race or another. And plenty of it was aimed at me. I've heard plenty of it trained on someone who

literally

came to the USA on a boat at about age nine. He suffered so much that he's only a doctor today.

And the reason I said "almost" everything? I formerly worked with a guy who was African-American. He choose to go to a college where he wasn't likely to meet a lot of people who shared his heritage: The Citadel. I can tell you that it didn't affect his business career. However, during his time there I imagine that he heard some things that I might not have heard in my lifetime. Of course, I'm not sure of that. Perhaps I don't know how the Citadel is today; maybe the books are outdated.

Life ain't perfect. But I've yet to meet the race, ethnicity or gender problem that was all-encompasing. And BTW, AFAIK neither of those two people ever complained about "unfairness".

[redwing77]

Chief-

That's because of their heritage and how they were brought up. There are a few African Americans who try to hold back their race, such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. However, many African Americans are now becoming more successful because they have a stronger emphasis on education and overcoming adversity through personal ambition, strength, and drive.

I fear many N.A. people have no such thing. Many statistics show that. North Dakota is among the nation's leaders in N.A. graduation rates last time I checked with 56% of N.A. students graduating high school per year (2000 data).

According to a site called All4Ed, in 2004-2005 that number drops to 38%. However, this does not account for a self-acknowledged 8% drop between ND State and independent sources. Since All4Ed is an independent source taking the gap info from EducationWeek, one must assume that the state probably reported a 46% grad rate.

But alas, N.A. graduation rates would jump up to close to 80% if we just got rid of the nickname.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Again, we're getting far off the intended path of this thread...

... Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Ironic to mention those two names today, eh?

But I do agree with what you mentioned (and to be fair, what I've heard many times over the last few months): not only has Obama become

the

African-American leader, with power to pronounce something racist or not; he has also taken a lot of the power away from the "we can't get ahead because of our race" chatterboxes.

As someone who lives near Jesse Jackson's hometown, it will be interesting to see what happens now. Love him or hate him, one thing's for sure:

nobody

thinks Jesse will retire quietly.

...emphasis on education and overcoming adversity through personal ambition, strength, and drive.

I don't think any one race or religion has a monopoly on either intelligence or craziness: but I do think most people will grab for any excuse to rationalize their own personal failures.

But alas, N.A. graduation rates would jump up to close to 80% if we just got rid of the nickname.

I'm sure some posters on this board would say that the ANNUAL rate will climb to 143% if/when the nickname is changed.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

There's no place that's any better or worse to post this, so I'll put it here as the thread is still pretty close to the top.

Here's a very slightly paraphrased version of some words that were uttered recently: anyone else agree that they're applicable here?

To those leaders ... who seek to sow conflict or blame their society's ills on (others)

[redwing77]

There's no place that's any better or worse to post this, so I'll put it here as the thread is still pretty close to the top.

Here's a very slightly paraphrased version of some words that were uttered recently: anyone else agree that they're applicable here?

No, because to think it is applicable to those leaders on the minority side would mean that they'd have to admit that there is even a remote possibility that their opposition, in this case the majority, might be right or at least right on some aspect of this debate.

That just doesn't exist. If it did, there would be compromise. There was never a chance at compromise.

They are also quite ardent in what they are doing is right. Most disasters as leaders thought that, too.

They feel that the only recourse is to punish the majority for the past. And whenever the punishment has been completely doled out, they'll move on. Unfortunately, that will never happen. Because once the punishment has been adequately doled out, then failures and adversity from then on would be their own fault, and can not be blamed upon others. That kind of responsibility isnt being instilled on N.A. youth. It will never be instilled until the victim mentality becomes a societal taboo.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

That just doesn't exist. If it did, there would be compromise. There was never a chance at compromise.

Unfortunately, the longer things go without even sitting down to talk, the closer we are to that coming true.

Sad. What really caught my attention was hearing "clenched fist". And he was talking about some of the most strident haters of America out there, with ingrained attitudes and the a population that doesn't see Americans on a daily basis.

...once the punishment has been adequately doled out, then failures and adversity from then on would be their own fault, and can not be blamed upon others. That kind of responsibility isnt being instilled on N.A. youth. It will never be instilled until the victim mentality becomes a societal taboo.

And the tribes in your state really don't have to get to the situation of "we won: we've eliminated the nickname at the largest university in the state. Now what?" They have an object lesson in Florida. People there worked together. The tribe (IMHO) thrives both socially and economically. When the Seminole tribe started their agreement with FSU, they certainly didn't have the benefit of seeing how this could work. The tribes of your state have that benefit, they can study the pros and cons of what happened in Florida.

But as noted, they aren't even willing to sit down and talk. (At least their leaders aren't willing to do that.)

[redwing77]

I think UND is willing to sit down and talk.

However, UND has many opponents, their faculty members among them. I think if the state, the SBoHE, and UND united completely, there might be a bit more temptation for the tribal leaders to at least sit down and talk.

SBoHE is now thinking it isn't a fight worth fighting. The State has simply moved on, as all things political do once the issue is out of the headlines. And UND is still fractured. There's no real reason for the tribe to talk. They simply wait out the 3 years and say "Well, we still dont' approve. Change the name."

So, yeah, I say change the name as soon as possible. And let them make suggestions that will have just as much weight on them as I would as an alum or Johnny Student would as a student. No special treatment.

And I also sponsor the cessation of the University going out of their way in other areas for N.A. students. No, not dropping funding or backing out of scholarships. Rather, a funding freeze. They get the same amount every year based upon federal funding and student enrollment. The N.A. program can instill, of course, any student fees they wish on the N.A. student population.

Make the University truly equal (well somewhat anyways... until there is a Caucasian-American Cultural Center or a program for every ethnicity with equal funding, it will never be truly equal) and make N.A. students simply another student population no different than any other student population in the school. If they complain, simply tell them that everyone here is now treated equally. If the funding isn't enough, hit up the tribes.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

...I think if the state, the SBoHE, and UND united completely...

To me, it sounds like the State is the taxing body that funds those other two-and the body that goes to the people for support. That's the logical entity to be the one who is a "united front".

There's no real reason for the tribe to talk. They simply wait out the 3 years and say "Well, we still dont' approve. Change the name."

While your statement is correct, I feel that it is a shortsighted view on the part of the tribes.

So, yeah, I say change the name as soon as possible. And let them make suggestions that will have just as much weight on them as I would as an alum or Johnny Student would as a student. No special treatment.

Oh, absolutely. If "Sioux" goes, then nobody has any veto power over Nakota or any other word. I've never understood those who think that any new nickname needs to go to the tribes first.

And I also sponsor the cessation of the University going out of their way in other areas for N.A. students. No, not dropping funding or backing out of scholarships. Rather, a funding freeze. They get the same amount every year based upon federal funding and student enrollment. The N.A. program can instill, of course, any student fees they wish on the N.A. student population.

JMHO, but regardless of the nickname these programs and courses are either a good idea or they're not. I think that if the name goes support for programs like this will suffer a backlash in popular approval, but so be it. Let those who speak out for reasonableness now be those who can speak out for reasonableness in the future. If you're silent now, then keep your mouth shut on other Native issues also.

[redwing77]

shortsighted how? What possible incentive would the pro nickname changers have to talking when all they have to do is wait for 3 years and they get what they want?

I don't see the incentive to talk at all from the Tribe's perspective. Not derogatory, just fact.

Heck, if they sit and talk, they might lose part or even all of what they want. Compromise means that you don't get everything you want, but you get some. I don't see the pro-nickname changers being a party to that.

[Riverman]

shortsighted how? What possible incentive would the pro nickname changers have to talking when all they have to do is wait for 3 years and they get what they want?

I don't see the incentive to talk at all from the Tribe's perspective. Not derogatory, just fact.

Heck, if they sit and talk, they might lose part or even all of what they want. Compromise means that you don't get everything you want, but you get some. I don't see the pro-nickname changers being a party to that.

redwing77, Today in the Herald The Time Out Week has been canceled. How sad here was a chance for Ron His Horse and Braun of Indian Studies at UND to come to UND and agree that they need help funding the various N/A functions and

an going issue of funding for the various projects that involve The Dept of Indian Studies at UND. And yes even (gulp) compromise about the use of the nickname and logo.

IMHO, UND might be able to come to an agreement that sales from UND merchandise could be used to help sponsor

events like The film series on Canadian Aboriginal issues or The Wacipi Time Out.

I agree with you Redwing77. When the current logo goes away so will any extra funding UND has. UND will not have the extra cash for many things that help Grand Forks as a community and the state and all who inhabit it because of lost revenue in sales tax.

If the logo goes so be it. Sad that a few misguided people can inflict so much angst.

R.I.P FIGHTING SIOUX 2010

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

shortsighted how? What possible incentive would the pro nickname changers have to talking when all they have to do is wait for 3 years and they get what they want?

Maybe they'll get more than what they want. Like being ignored.

JMHO, but the NCAA has handed your state's tribes a lever with a three-year lifespan. As noted, they can see exactly how the Seminole Tribe has leveraged the same situation into some continuing advantages at FSU and in the state of Florida. If the Sioux walk away without using the lever, how has the situation improved for the tribe?

It would be one thing if they were breaking new ground. The Seminoles have provided a blueprint for the ND tribes.

For that matter, since the NCAA has negotiated this one-sided settlement, all the tribes have to do is insert a five-year renegotiation clause in any agreement. They have a lot of options.

Heck, if they sit and talk, they might lose part or even all of what they want. Compromise means that you don't get everything you want, but you get some.

To that, I'd say "negotiate and see if you can get even more than what you have now".

Dropping this lever without using it assures you won't lose what you have now: but then again, exactly what do you have now that you like so much?? Why not see what this tool can do before it expires in three years?

From the perspective of the tribes, I don't see a price for sitting down and talking. What do they lose by doing that?

[Riverman]

Maybe they'll get more than what they want. Like being ignored.

JMHO, but the NCAA has handed your state's tribes a lever with a three-year lifespan. As noted, they can see exactly how the Seminole Tribe has leveraged the same situation into some continuing advantages at FSU and in the state of Florida. If the Sioux walk away without using the lever, how has the situation improved for the tribe?

It would be one thing if they were breaking new ground. The Seminoles have provided a blueprint for the ND tribes.

For that matter, since the NCAA has negotiated this one-sided settlement, all the tribes have to do is insert a five-year renegotiation clause in any agreement. They have a lot of options.

To that, I'd say "negotiate and see if you can get even more than what you have now".

Dropping this lever without using it assures you won't lose what you have now: but then again, exactly what do you have now that you like so much?? Why not see what this tool can do before it expires in three years?

From the perspective of the tribes, I don't see a price for sitting down and talking. What do they lose by doing that?

Well spoken.