Nickname/Logo Affecting Conference Affiliation

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

I hope you were kidding about your understanding of discrimination (by your words "get hammered for discrimination, I take it you mean the example you give is proscribed discrimination). If you were not kidding, you show a profound lack of understanding of some fairly basic concepts in our law.

Certain actions are deemed in the law to be impermissible discrimination. Other forms of "discrimination" are not proscribed by our law. Refusal of one institution to play another institution based on a name is not unlawful, forbidden or anything else. It can and has happened; and, it looks like it's going to continue to happen in the future (UND will be proving that). If you want to call that discrimination, I suppose that's okay but your implication is that it is impermissible discrimination and if that IS what you intend to state, then you are wrong. Example: Let's say a person of Irish ancestry wants to buy my car which I have offered for sale in a newspaper ad. I refuse to sell to the Irishman because I think the Irish are shifty, good-for-nothing drunks who cannot be trusted and I am concerned he'll probably just pay with a check that bounces. Am I discriminating against the Irishman? I suppose so. Is that wrong? Not in the law (I suppose North Dakota could have passed a goofy law saying such private actions are impermissible discrimination but that would be an odd law.) (By the way, I am 3/4ths Irish and that's why I used an Irishman in my example.)

I get tired of people talking about 'discrimination' or 'harassment' and other concepts, implying that every time someone looks cross-eyed at another person, there is some basis for a lawsuit. That's so far from the way things work...it concerns me we have a growing group of people in this country who should go back to junior high and take a course or two about some basic concepts underlying our system of government and laws.

There are a lot of resources on the internet that talk about unlawful discrimination, protected classes and related topics. Do some reading.

On a related note, KELO TV out of Sioux Falls, had a clip on this evening's news, about the Summit visit to USD. Commissioner Douple reiterated that UND had expressed interest in joining the Summit League but would not be considered so long as the name/mascot issue remains unresolved. Here's the link to KELO's website if you want to read the story:

http://www.keloland.com/sports/NewsDetail7984.cfm?Id=0,79421

I believe a person should be able to do as much discriminating as he wants to. I was simply putting together and example to show that schools are discriminating against UND.

[mksioux]

I'll risk being accused of assuming too much.

If anyone thinks that UND athletics would be able to recruit coaches or athletes effectively after they know that they have no chance of a home playoff game, and thus will be on an unequal footing compared to other schools-well, they think differently than I do.

It would be a

"big deal"

to a conference: and a

MUCH BIGGER DEAL

to the school involved. In short, if the sanctions mentioned are applied the conference wouldn't have to worry about North Dakota not being able to host for very long: and that's because North Dakota wouldn't earn host status very often after being put in a position of not being able to offer coaches and athletes the same opportunity as they would have at other schools.

Very good point. A school that could possibly be stricken with such obvious competitive limitations would be less attractive to a potential new conference.

Everyone pretty much agrees, with the possible exception of a few die-hard hockey-only fans, that living under the sanctions is not a realistic option. Therefore, realistically, the nickname will be dropped if tribal approval cannot be obtained. I was just pointing out the the settlement doesn't legally require it, and therefore, Douple is technically correct when she says that the nickname issue has not been finally resolved.

Where I have to take slight issue with Douple (other than his B.S. scheduling "caution") is that, despite his lip service that he will consider UND's application once the issue is "finally resolved...one way or the other", technically speaking, the only way this issue can be "finally resolved" is by UND dropping the nickname. The reason is because under the settlement agreement, if the tribes give permission UND will placed on the namesake exception to the Policy. But if the tribes later revoke the permission, UND is given a certain amount of time to drop its nickname or be removed from the namesake exception to the Policy. Thus, even if tribal approval were obtained and UND kept its nickname, the issue would still not technically be "finally resolved."

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

...the settlement doesn't legally require it...

JMHO, but I think that is not an accident. I think a number of crafty lawyers on the NCAA side avoided saying "you must...." because that would make it easier for the school to go to court to say "this is unreasonable", "we're in negotiations" etc. and have a judge start issuing injunctions. This way the NCAA says "we're still letting you play, we just don't want something under our banner associated with this".

Again, that's merely MHO. And that's from someone who isn't a lawyer (and glad of it).

[mksioux]

JMHO, but I think that is not an accident. I think a number of crafty lawyers on the NCAA side avoided saying "you must...." because that would make it easier for the school to go to court to say "this is unreasonable", "we're in negotiations" etc. and have a judge start issuing injunctions. This way the NCAA says "we're still letting you play, we just don't want something under our banner associated with this".

Again, that's merely MHO. And that's from someone who isn't a lawyer (and glad of it).

Even before the settlement and lawsuit, the NCAA never required UND or any other school to change its nickname/logo/mascot. It admitted from the beginning that it did not have the power to do that. Rather, it maintained that it had right to control and regulate (and effectively create sanctions relating to) its championship events. Since the NCAA never claimed UND was required to drop its nickname, it makes sense that it didn't require UND to drop its nickname in the settlement.

[JackJD]

I believe a person should be able to do as much discriminating as he wants to. I was simply putting together and example to show that schools are discriminating against UND.

Then my hat's off to you, a person of discriminating tastes (and good humor).

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Even before the settlement and lawsuit, the NCAA never required UND or any other school to change its nickname/logo/mascot. It admitted from the beginning that it did not have the power to do that. Rather, it maintained that it had right to control and regulate (and effectively create sanctions relating to) its championship events. Since the NCAA never claimed UND was required to drop its nickname, it makes sense that it didn't require UND to drop its nickname in the settlement.

That's true. IMO, the NCAA got even more lawsuit-wary after they saw that they were going to face the mother of all judgements regarding their attempt to tell the Seminole Tribe that they were the victims of a hostile and abusive school.

I think the three-year time frame and all of that was a backdown from the NCAA's original wishes; but we'll never know that for certain.

But if the tribes later revoke the permission, UND is given a certain amount of time to drop its nickname or be removed from the namesake exception to the Policy.

I wonder if the Oracle of the Summit Conference, the person who is ABSOLUTELY NEEDED TO MAKE SURE THE PRESIDENTS DON'T MAKE A MISTAKE AND IS RIGHT TO ISSUE PRESS RELEASES AT THE DROP OF A HAT has any sort of rule stating that a team that's already in his conference cannot change it's nickname or logo without the express written consent of the Commissioner of the Summit Conference, a.k.a. the Smartest Man in the World who has Deep Undercover Contacts within the NCAA?

Let's say you change your name to either the Seashells or the Balloons, the Commissioner comes down and pronounces you fit for the the Conference and then you're in for about a year or so and then you change right back to "Sioux". What happens then? Certainly this guy who has all the answers and shouldn't be doubted has already thought of that.

For that matter, what if Centenary decides today that it wants to be known as the Whooping, Screaming, Scalping, Warpainted Savages? What would the Commish do?

[Herd]

That's true. IMO, the NCAA got even more lawsuit-wary after they saw that they were going to face the mother of all judgements regarding their attempt to tell the Seminole Tribe that they were the victims of a hostile and abusive school.

I think the three-year time frame and all of that was a backdown from the NCAA's original wishes; but we'll never know that for certain.

I wonder if the Oracle of the Summit Conference, the person who is ABSOLUTELY NEEDED TO MAKE SURE THE PRESIDENTS DON'T MAKE A MISTAKE AND IS RIGHT TO ISSUE PRESS RELEASES AT THE DROP OF A HAT has any sort of rule stating that a team that's already in his conference cannot change it's nickname or logo without the express written consent of the Commissioner of the Summit Conference, a.k.a. the Smartest Man in the World who has Deep Undercover Contacts within the NCAA?

Let's say you change your name to either the Seashells or the Balloons, the Commissioner comes down and pronounces you fit for the the Conference and then you're in for about a year or so and then you change right back to "Sioux". What happens then? Certainly this guy who has all the answers and shouldn't be doubted has already thought of that.

For that matter, what if Centenary decides today that it wants to be known as the Whooping, Screaming, Scalping, Warpainted Savages? What would the Commish do?

Some things just police themselves, don't you think. What if the sun doesn't come up tomorrow, are you going to worry about that too.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Hammer meets knee...

Some things just police themselves, don't you think. What if the sun doesn't come up tomorrow, are you going to worry about that too.

Of course not. I have deep undercover sources within the Sun's administration and they have assured me that the sun will rise tomorrow. On time. And before you ask, setting is also on for tomorrow-that's straight from the highest authorities.

Thanks for playing! We have some lovely parting gifts for you; move along, this way please...

[star2city]

Forum editorial: UND logo threatens D-I move

The logo has become a millstone dragging behind the wagon carrying UND to D-I sports. The dispute has put not only the campus, but all of North Dakota, in a less-than-flattering national spotlight. UND

[Chewey]

Forum editorial: UND logo threatens D-I move

Finally understand the Forums depth of concern about this issue. Imagine a UND-NDSU game at the FargoDome in 2010, with the game getting some national media attention. The whole NDSU student section and much of the rest of the FargoDome start a "Sioux Suck ***" cheer, much like has happened in the Metrodome, FargoDome, BSA even without UND playing NDSU.

The less-than-flattering media attention will be focused on NDSU, not UND, and that is the real fear of Chapman, Taylor, the Forum, et. al. Chapman and Taylor are doing what they can, with the Summit League and Douple etc, to not play UND because of the shame NDSU's own fans will bring upon themselves.

That's a good point.

[Oxbow6]

Forum editorial: UND logo threatens D-I move

Finally understand the Forums depth of concern about this issue. Imagine a UND-NDSU game at the FargoDome in 2010, with the game getting some national media attention. The whole NDSU student section and much of the rest of the FargoDome start a "Sioux Suck ***" cheer, much like has happened in the Metrodome, FargoDome, BSA even without UND playing NDSU.

The less-than-flattering media attention will be focused on NDSU, not UND, and that is the real fear of Chapman, Taylor, the Forum, et. al. Chapman and Taylor are doing what they can, with the Summit League and Douple etc, to not play UND because of the shame NDSU's own fans will bring upon themselves.

Wow, what an interesting concept...NDSU without a halo!

[Hansel]

Forum editorial: UND logo threatens D-I move

Finally understand the Forums depth of concern about this issue. Imagine a UND-NDSU game at the FargoDome in 2010, with the game getting some national media attention. The whole NDSU student section and much of the rest of the FargoDome start a "Sioux Suck ***" cheer, much like has happened in the Metrodome, FargoDome, BSA even without UND playing NDSU.

The less-than-flattering media attention will be focused on NDSU, not UND, and that is the real fear of Chapman, Taylor, the Forum, et. al. Chapman and Taylor are doing what they can, with the Summit League and Douple etc, to not play UND because of the shame NDSU's own fans will bring upon themselves.

You have an excellent point... we all know all of UND's problems are NDSU's/Chapman's/The Forum's fault... maybe we can add Douple to that list too

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

From the editorial....

... a sustainable resolution of the dispute cannot include retaining the logo.

Why not?

What will the writer say if the tribes okay the logo? Will he write that the tribes were wrong to to this?

Is a vote okaying the logo likely? No, but that doesn't mean that there's no chance it will occur. There was a reason the three-year timeline was inserted into the settlement.

...UND sports fans who blithely caricature native heritage...

Yes. yes: and the Seminole fans are all totally respectful.

Good point Einstein.

...alumni who will never let go of the logo, even as they look foolish and intransigent as change inevitably comes.

There you go. For judgements about looking foolish, always pay attention to the nearest randomly-chosen editorial writer.

He'll

tell you when you're no longer honoring tradition and suddenly looking foolish.

I don't envy the editorial writers here in Chicago. They're forced to waste their time on politics when they'd much rather lecture people on what t-shirt to wear.

[star2city]

You have an excellent point... we all know all of UND's problems are NDSU's/Chapman's/The Forum's fault... maybe we can add Douple to that list too

Guess you're Chapman's bodyguard on the message board circuit. If you actually could comprehend the comment instead of responding with a kneejerk defense of Chapman, there was no attack on Chapman. If UND and NDSU were to play again before the nickname is changed, NDSU's fans will cause a public relations issue for NDSU regarding the nickname - no reasonable person would think otherwise.

[Herd]

Guess you're Chapman's bodyguard on the message board circuit. If you actually could comprehend the comment instead of responding with a kneejerk defense of Chapman, there was no attack on Chapman. If UND and NDSU were to play again before the nickname is changed, NDSU's fans will cause a public relations issue for NDSU regarding the nickname - no reasonable person would think otherwise.

The reasons not to play just keep stacking up. Hopefully Taylor waits a few years for the name change so we don't have to go through all of this.

[DamStrait]

The reasons not to play just keep stacking up. Hopefully Taylor waits a few years for the name change so we don't have to go through all of this.

There are plenty of reasons for 'SU not to play the Sioux, but the name is not one of them. To contend otherwise is just stupid and cowardly.

[Bison Dan]

There are plenty of reasons for 'SU not to play the Sioux, but the name is not one of them. To contend otherwise is just stupid and cowardly.

Your right the name has nothing to do with it - IMO

[Herd]

Your right the name has nothing to do with it - IMO

Agreed Dan.

What do you do when the kid sitting next to you in school wants to cheat off your paper so he gets the same grade as you, even though he didn't study. On top of that, he went out and partied and told you that you were stupid for studying. Do you help him out or tell him to forget it? He is your friend and neighbor afterall, but geez . . . you did a lot of work???

That's the real reason we don't have any games scheduled yet, but it won't be long.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Obviously, the Great West Conference needs a proactive leader who isn't afraid to tell University Presidents their business and which schools they should be associating with. I'm sure that the other conference schools aren't aware that CSU is a total sewer.

http://wgnradio.com/index.php?option=com_c...&Itemid=577

The announcement came days after the Faculty Senate took the unusual step of asking Gov. Pat Quinn to remove (the Board of Trustees) and to stop the board from hiring a president.

Earlier this month, 13 of the 15 members on the search advisory committee resigned in protest.

Watson, 63, announced last year that he will retire this summer as chancellor of City Colleges.

However, Watson also received a no-confidence vote from the faculty in 2005 after a bitter three-week strike. Faculty members contended his "divisive tactics" weakened trust and harmed the school's reputation.

Note the use of a magic word: divisive. That usually stops all debate right there.

The funny part of that article is the idea that they thought the BEST candidate was someone who was ready to retire (I assume he had maxed out his former pension). Well that, and the whitewash of the fired President's shennigans: as a University President, she couldn't be expected to know which one was her personal credit card and which one was the school's credit card; wasn't her fault that a few thousand dollars worth of her own expenses ended up on the school's account.