Lennon's return to ND

[GeauxSioux]

I realize we have been through this numerous times, but here we go again. I will use an example to make my point. If the University of Southern Illinois and the University of Illinois were recruiting the same player to come to their school and play BASKETBALL, what was happening before they made the change from I and I-AA to FBS and FCS was the University of Illinois coaches would sit down in this player's home and lie to them. They would say why would you go to The University of Southern Illinois when they are a I-AA school. Which we all know is only correct when referring to the football team. The kid, most likely 16-18 years old and uninformed, believes these coaches and opts to go to the University of Illinois based only on the fact that they were told that the University of Southern Illinois was inferior in some way. To guard against this behavior, the NCAA enacted the new naming system. It's purpose was to add the word football into the new name so recruits would know that the names only applied to football. Football Championship Subdivision and Football Bowl subdivision. So you see, the purpose of this new naming system is not some sort of inferiority complex that the smaller division I schools have. They were being screwed out of recruits by the big schools lying to teenagers. You can see how this would affect a school like NDSU, UND, UNI, SIU when trying to recruit athletes in other sports. UND has a strong hockey program. What if the University of Minnesota began telling unsuspecting recruits that you guys were somehow inferior to them and was winning recruiting battles solely on that. You would be pissed. This is what happened, and this is why they changed the names. SIU is just as strong if not stronger in basketball than some of the teams that would win recruiting battles over them, because teenagers were being lied to. Some might say "well the kids should be smarter than that and do research on the school on their own". I agree with that, but big schools shouldn't have a HUGE advantage over smaller schools because teenagers are too lazy to do research on which college to go to.

For those of you who understood this before my rant, I apologize. Dave just seems to make it about an inferiority complex that FCS schools have and it just plain isn't true.

Do you really want a kid coming to your school that is too lazy to research that little bit of information? I would also hope that the coaches doing the recruiting are providing information to the recruits showing them that Division I is Division I.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, other than to say that about the only people who are going to use the proper nomenclature are the FCS schools. The average Joe just doesn't care. To them the power conferences are Division I. Sorry for the use of the term nomenclature, Dave.

BTW, you may or may not agree with Dave K on a topic, but I can assure you that no amount of explaining it to him is going to help. My observation of Dave K is that he is steadfast in his beliefs.

[Bison06]

Do you really want a kid coming to your school that is too lazy to research that little bit of information? I would also hope that the coaches doing the recruiting are providing information to the recruits showing them that Division I is Division I.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, other than to say that about the only people who are going to use the proper nomenclature are the FCS schools. The average Joe just doesn't care. To them the power conferences are Division I. Sorry for the use of the term nomenclature, Dave.

BTW, you may or may not agree with Dave K on a topic, but I can assure you that no amount of explaining it to him is going to help. My observation of Dave K is that he is steadfast in his beliefs.

Being a teenager that did take the time to look into my college selection I agree with this statement, but the recruiting process is competetive, unethical coaches will lie to gain an advantage. We have seen these unethical practices in so many situations over the years that it should not come as a surprise that they were going on in this situation. Also, I know that a lot of you don't follow basketball at UND, but to continue to refer to your whole school as I-AA is harmful to all other sports besides football. There is a distinction for a reason as I stated in my previous post. So if you call your football team I-AA I won't get mad, but made sure that people understand it is for football only. If you don't we will be right back to the problems we had before the name change with recruting. This is why I use FCS and FBS, not because I feel inferior in some way to the "Big Dogs", but because I don't want people to unfairly judge the level of competition that NDSU and UND compete at. I am not trying to make it more than it is, but I also don't want it to be viewed as less than it is either.

As far as convincing DaveK, I am well aware that once he digs his feet in on a subject there is no changing his mind. I just want to make sure you all know there is a legitamate reason for the name change and not just small schools feel inferior. That and I must be extraordinarily bored today.

[GeauxSioux]

You could just call it terminology like a normal person would... or were you using it mockingly?

Just having some fun.

[Bison06]

Again, I'm talking about FOOTBALL. Call it I-AA or use that lame FCS label if you must, just don't call it D1. It makes you sound like the little dog who thinks he's a big dog.

I don't know how to say this without sounding condescending, you have completely missed the point. I know it's just for football, but that is the point of putting football in the name.(Football Bowl Championship)I am not saying ESPN uses it, I am not saying that all coaches use it, I am not saying that I use it all of the time. All I am saying is there is a legit reason for the changes to the terminology and to say that it's only because I want to be a big dog is incorrect.

[Oxbow6]

I don't know how to say this without sounding condescending, you have completely missed the point. I know it's just for football, but that is the point of putting football in the name.(Football Bowl Championship)I am not saying ESPN uses it, I am not saying that all coaches use it, I am not saying that I use it all of the time. All I am saying is there is a legit reason for the changes to the terminology and to say that it's only because I want to be a big dog is incorrect.

Let me give this a shot on DaveK's behalf. IF NDSU plays Wisconsin in basketball, you have 2 D-1 teams playing. If you have the same 2 schools playing in FB, you don't have 2 D-1 teams playing. They are not in the same D-1 classification. That is Davek's point, I believe, and I tend to agree with him. When NDSU, Montana St. and soon UND advertise they are playing D-1 FB that is not entierly correct as they are not like D-1 Wisconsin in FB like they are in basketball. DaveK, I'm with you on this one.

[Bison06]

Let me give this a shot on DaveK's behalf. IF NDSU plays Wisconsin in basketball, you have 2 D-1 teams playing. If you have the same 2 schools playing in FB, you don't have 2 D-1 teams playing. They are not in the same D-1 classification. That is Davek's point, I believe, and I tend to agree with him. When NDSU, Montana St. and soon UND advertise they are playing D-1 FB that is not entierly correct as they are not like D-1 Wisconsin in FB like they are in basketball. DaveK, I'm with you on this one.

I agree with that point, but what would you have NDSU call themselves in the football scenario? They certainly aren't DII, they are somewhere in between. I have no problem with admitting that NDSU is not DI like Wisconsin in football, but they are in every other sport. It creates a problem with the naming. So until that gets taken care of the FCS/FBS is a very important distinction to make for recruiting. It is important to have the word Football in the name so people know it is only a distinction made in football. The old way, technically Gonzaga was a DI-AAA school as were Marquette and Wichita State. It was just a bad naming system. The change they made is not perfect by any means, but it is important as UND will see in recruting battles with some of the "Big Dog" DI schools.

Also, I think that NDSU or UND saying they are DI in football without adding FCS on the end is just as backward and misleading as calling them I-AA schools.

[Stromer]

Let me give this a shot on DaveK's behalf. IF NDSU plays Wisconsin in basketball, you have 2 D-1 teams playing. If you have the same 2 schools playing in FB, you don't have 2 D-1 teams playing. They are not in the same D-1 classification. That is Davek's point, I believe, and I tend to agree with him. When NDSU, Montana St. and soon UND advertise they are playing D-1 FB that is not entierly correct as they are not like D-1 Wisconsin in FB like they are in basketball. DaveK, I'm with you on this one.

You would still have 2 D1 teams playing in FB. One IAA team and one 1A team. I don't have a problem with people using IAA and the such but they should really call the FBS teams IA if they also use the term IAA. There is not a D1 and D1AA. There is a D1A and D1AA. If you really think that withholding the IAA part from NDSU and UND is a deceitful act, you probably are a little too deep in the conspiracy theories.

[Herd]

Let me give this a shot on DaveK's behalf. IF NDSU plays Wisconsin in basketball, you have 2 D-1 teams playing. If you have the same 2 schools playing in FB, you don't have 2 D-1 teams playing. They are not in the same D-1 classification. That is Davek's point, I believe, and I tend to agree with him. When NDSU, Montana St. and soon UND advertise they are playing D-1 FB that is not entierly correct as they are not like D-1 Wisconsin in FB like they are in basketball. DaveK, I'm with you on this one.

There are not multiple divisions of DI, there is only DI. When NDSU plays Wisconsin in any sport (including football), it is two DI schools playing. What part of this don't you understand? You should maybe rethink your above post, you kinda missed it as far as the actual facts are concerned.

NCAA Divisions: (That's all folks, just 3 divisions) This is just a cold hard fact, not an opinion to vote on.

DI

DII

DIII

[FargoBison]

Does this really matter? The names say what each subdivision is all about. One decides things with a bowl game while the other decides the culmination of their season with a tournament and true championship game.

Both are DI because they are all made up of DI schools. Why people like Dave fight this is beyond me, sure the names aren't great but I doubt people will be confusing FCS programs with Ohio State anytime soon.

[gjw007]

Does this really matter? ... Both are DI because they are all made up of DI schools. Why people like Dave fight this is beyond me, sure the names aren't great but I doubt people will be confusing FCS programs with Ohio State anytime soon.

I don't think it matters but I really don't know why some people seem to think that all D1 programs are the same. It is amazing to read people imply that the Bison are in the same division as Ohio State without a qualification. It is true for all sports except football where there is D1A (or FBS if you prefer) but even here it can be broken into the BCS and the rest, and D1AA (or FCS). If they are the same, why the different labels and different allowable scholarships? Dave K is essentially right but does it matter? People are going to label these whatever they want and most people, especially those who are knowledgeable, will know there are differences in the levels between the Bison of NDSU and Badgers pf Wisconsin. Even in D1 sports without subdivision, are teams in conferences like Duke in the ACC the same as teams in conferences like the Sun Belt? Collegehoops has these listed in different tiers, http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/preview/200...rence/index.htm, recognizing even here there are differences. This suggests that although the Bison and Wisconsin may indeed be D1 programs, they are not at the same tier.

[The Sicatoka]

DI-A or FBS.

DI-AA or FCS.

Fine.

But what prevents "the big lie" as some seem to want to call it from being told just the same to any ol' recruit?

To play off the UI/SIU scenario above, what prevents the following hypthetical scenario?

UI Baseball Recruiter: "SIU? You don't want to go there. They're small-time. Heck, you ever see them play in a bowl game on TV? You want, you need to go big time. Bowl games, excitement. UI is big time, not them."

[Oxbow6]

There are not multiple divisions of DI, there is only DI. When NDSU plays Wisconsin in any sport (including football), it is two DI schools playing. What part of this don't you understand? You should maybe rethink your above post, you kinda missed it as far as the actual facts are concerned.

NCAA Divisions: (That's all folks, just 3 divisions) This is just a cold hard fact, not an opinion to vote on.

DI

DII

DIII

I hear what the last few posters have said--good points but I didn't miss any facts. D1A and D1AA , or whatever you want to call it, are not the same classification as far as football goes. But really it is insignificant though. I see DaveK's point in the fact, and again we are talking about JUST football, that saying SDSU Jacks and OSU Buckeyes are D1 FB programs is true but not completely accurate. A Kia and Mercedes are cars, but not really the same. Semantics I know, but it is interesting to see some of you get your panties in a bundle.

[FargoBison]

I don't think it matters but I really don't know why some people seem to think that all D1 programs are the same. It is amazing to read people imply that the Bison are in the same division as Ohio State without a qualification. It is true for all sports except football where there is D1A (or FBS if you prefer) but even here it can be broken into the BCS and the rest, and D1AA (or FCS). If they are the same, why the different labels and different allowable scholarships? Dave K is essentially right but does it matter? People are going to label these whatever they want and most people, especially those who are knowledgeable, will know there are differences in the levels between the Bison of NDSU and Badgers pf Wisconsin. Even in D1 sports without subdivision, are teams in conferences like Duke in the ACC the same as teams in conferences like the Sun Belt? Collegehoops has these listed in different tiers, http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/preview/200...rence/index.htm, recognizing even here there are differences. This suggests that although the Bison and Wisconsin may indeed be D1 programs, they are not at the same tier.

I only have one problem with what Davek says, and that is that he says NDSU isn't DI. The football team and the entire school are DI.

I won't have a problem if people say NDSU is a mid-major in basketball. I don't have a problem with that because they realize that NDSU is indeed DI but they don't spend the millions on hoops like the Duke's of the world. FCS football is the same deal, DI schools playing on a more economic level.

[The Sicatoka]

So being an FCS school playing mid-major BB is an acceptable status.

Isn't that just saying that there's really a missing level in collegiate athletics?

Some really smart guy I know has been stating that for over five years.

Or at risk of really getting some folks' knickers in a twist ...

Maybe the real problem is the over-focus on program development at some schools.

Could those over-focused schools have created an over-inflated level beyond the collegiate, amateur level that Myles Brand loves to tout.

Let's face it, Duke runs it's basketball team more professionally than the LA Clippers and Florida runs it's football team better than the Dolphins have been run lately.

PS - Found this blog just for "DaveK":

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_co...ge-footbal.html

DISCLAIMER: I believe BSC Commissioner Fullerton. I believe a "big bang" is coming in college athletics. What it will be is the question.

Could this be it? http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_co...ase-for-th.html

[Fightin' Indigenous Person]

There are not multiple divisions of DI, there is only DI. When NDSU plays Wisconsin in any sport (including football), it is two DI schools playing. What part of this don't you understand? You should maybe rethink your above post, you kinda missed it as far as the actual facts are concerned.

NCAA Divisions: (That's all folks, just 3 divisions) This is just a cold hard fact, not an opinion to vote on.

DI

DII

DIII

You are technically precise, just not accurate. That is how the NCAA classifies its divisions. Let's talk about classification reality for football:

DI FBS/BCS - 6 conferences play for national championships

DI FBS/non-BCS - many conferences play for the opportunity to play in a low-level bowl game that no one cares about but alumni

DI FCS w/scholarships - plays in a tournament for a national championship

DI FCS w/o scholarships - will never play in a tournament for a national championship

DII - plays in a tournament that will be won by Grand Valley State

DIII - plays in a tournament w/players that don't get scholarships.

[Herd]

You are technically precise, just not accurate. That is how the NCAA classifies its divisions. Let's talk about classification reality for football:

DI FBS/BCS - 6 conferences play for national championships

DI FBS/non-BCS - many conferences play for the opportunity to play in a low-level bowl game that no one cares about but alumni

DI FCS w/scholarships - plays in a tournament for a national championship

DI FCS w/o scholarships - will never play in a tournament for a national championship

DII - plays in a tournament that will be won by Grand Valley State

DIII - plays in a tournament w/players that don't get scholarships.

Wow, you are clueless. There are not Sub-Sub-Division of FBS, and there are not Sub-Sub-Divisions of FCS. The FBS is the 85 scholarship level, and the FCS 0-63 scholarship level for DI schools only.

A DI school with 85 scholarships for football plays in the FBS sub-division

A DI school with 63 scholarships for football plays in the FCS sub-division

A DI school with 0 scholarships for football plays in the FCS sub-division

A DI school without football is just DI. Without football, it doesn't matter, just DI.

For 63 or 0, they are both FCS, they are not referred to any differently.

[star2city]

Wow, you are clueless. There are not Sub-Sub-Division of FBS, and there are not Sub-Sub-Divisions of FCS. The FBS is the 85 scholarship level, and the FCS 0-63 scholarship level for DI schools only.

A DI school with 85 scholarships for football plays in the FBS sub-division

A DI school with 63 scholarships for football plays in the FCS sub-division

A DI school with 0 scholarships for football plays in the FCS sub-division

A DI school without football is just DI. Without football, it doesn't matter, just DI.

For 63 or 0, they are both FCS, they are not referred to any differently.

How is it humanly possible to miss the earlier poiint, Herd? Is your Bison DI ego that huge - it needs a pin to pop.

[star2city]

Let's face it, Duke runs it's basketball team more professionally than the LA Clippers and Florida runs it's football team better than the Dolphins have been run lately.

PS - Found this blog just for "DaveK":

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_co...ge-footbal.html

DISCLAIMER: I believe BSC Commissioner Fullerton. I believe a "big bang" is coming in college athletics. What it will be is the question.

Could this be it? http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_co...ase-for-th.html

From the second blog, rather doubt the ACC, Pac10, SEC, or BigTeleven will move to 16, fuel costs are causing major headaches for the WAC (Hawaii to Ruston, La for nearly every program), CUSA (El Paso to Greenville, NC), and even the MWC (with nine members and only one in Texas), budgets and tempers will be flaring if transportation costs stay high. A mini-big bang could occur at this non-BCS level (and some IAA teams could be winners or get free passes because of it). The MAC, being mostly a bus league, is, ironically, probably the most stable non-BCS conference.

[Sioux27]

Wow, you are clueless. There are not Sub-Sub-Division of FBS, and there are not Sub-Sub-Divisions of FCS. The FBS is the 85 scholarship level, and the FCS 0-63 scholarship level for DI schools only.

A DI school with 85 scholarships for football plays in the FBS sub-division

A DI school with 63 scholarships for football plays in the FCS sub-division

A DI school with 0 scholarships for football plays in the FCS sub-division

A DI school without football is just DI. Without football, it doesn't matter, just DI.

For 63 or 0, they are both FCS, they are not referred to any differently.

Wow, you are a tool!

Here fishy, fishy, fishy............that's it..........take the bait..........take the bait............got em!

[GeauxSioux]

Thank you. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who gets it. You say the words Division I to your average sports fan and the vast majority of them are not going to think of the highest level of college football that has playoffs, they're going to think of the one that has bowl games.

This is what is known, in some parts, as reality.

[SiouxMD]

SUU football: Southern Utah battling through identity crisis - The Salt Lake Tribune

"A lot of kids didn't realize this was a Division I basketball program."

I bet they still use DI-AA and not FCS when referencing football...if they used the correct nomenclature then those kids would have known that SUU is DI in all sports!

[gjw007]

This is what is known, in some parts, as reality.

Didn't you know, reality is just a state of mind And yes, if you say D1 to the average football fan, they're thinking Florida, Miami, Michigan not UNI, NDSU, or UND. The change is labels isn't gong to change this, at least not for awhile assuming the NCAA keeps with it for 3 or 4 decades.

[Fightin' Indigenous Person]

Wow, you are clueless. There are not Sub-Sub-Division of FBS, and there are not Sub-Sub-Divisions of FCS. The FBS is the 85 scholarship level, and the FCS 0-63 scholarship level for DI schools only.

A DI school with 85 scholarships for football plays in the FBS sub-division

A DI school with 63 scholarships for football plays in the FCS sub-division

A DI school with 0 scholarships for football plays in the FCS sub-division

A DI school without football is just DI. Without football, it doesn't matter, just DI.

For 63 or 0, they are both FCS, they are not referred to any differently.

Call me clueless and ignore reality. You're charming. . . .

[dakotadan]

I can't believe you guys are arguing about something so petty. Threads that end up like this just really show how some people would rather bicker and argue than carry on an actual discussion.

[GeauxSioux]

Just thought I would toss this in the fire...

From the AGS website, which is "the" Forum for FCS aka I-AA.... I-AA @ I-A GAME OF THE WEEK