Oxbow6

Again, you paint with an extremely broad brush. Most in this thread are not judging the entire NA race by the actions/comments of a few NA. But if that is your perception, so be it. I was the one who had the conversaion with the engineering prof. The point was that there was made available 2 SCHOLARSHIP slots for NAs that they were having diffuculting filling because of academic reasons and that those 2 slots limited some "other" students from gaining enterance into the program. So if you want to read into that that all NAs can't add or subtract, again that is your perception. The NA programs should continue regardless of the logo/nickname outcome, but valid points were made prior that there might be questioning by some as to why we are continuing to support those who feel violated and disrespected by the same university they are getting an education from. Not saying that is right.

Agree. He was something special during his collegiate years.

There in lies the dilema. There is a small faction who think that way. As there is a small faction that thinks that there is that sentiment from most on this thread. I am not advocating cutting NA programs, but I think there will be a cry at some point from the general public as to why we are continuing to support those (NA) who feel violated/abused by us. Again, I am not saying that is the right action to take, but when there are certian percpetions, there will be some fallout by what was previously noted as getting spit in the face. Human nature? The other "H" word per PCM I am guessing is hypocritical?? Personally, the sooner all of this is resolved the better.

Good points and I'm not the only who has heard/used the term "colleges" within a unversity system.

I'll retract that then. Let me know what term (not college, not school, program??) they use from your 15 years on campus so that I won't make the same mistake again.

Agree.

What I was getting at was there is a NA school within the UND campus, i.e Engineering school at UND. Thanks for pointing that out to me and correcting my mistake. I know you are smarter than that not to know what I meant but couldn't resist the little jab.

Why?? Because there is already tensions and from what you hear and read most to the tesion is being expressed by the NA students...it gets back to the "hostile and abusive" manta. Now is some of that probably valid--absolutely and is it being perpetrated by mostly white--more than likely and does that make it right--no. But who is blaming the entire NA students at UND?? Who is stating that all NAs are 2nd class citizens?? You seem to paint with a broad brush when convenient for your argument. The bottom line, whether you like it or not, is that there will be some backlash at NAs either on campus or in general society if the name/logo goes. And just in conversation with people, they are tired of the Jeanotte/His Horse Is Thunder rhetoric and seeing the protests from NA students to whom their tax dollars are going to get an education. Again do I think that is right--absolutely not but you continually are making the argument that, in essence, ALL whites are out to get ALL NAs and that is simply not that case. Those broad statements you made above lead to the "tensions" we are discussing because they are so wide-sweeping and accusational. There are bad apples in every bunch and I'm SURE there are more hard working, good citizen NAs than not, just as there are more non-serial killer whites than serial killer whites!! This issue is what it is--SOME NAs who see that they are being disrespected by the name/log and UND itself and there are some whites who strongly disagree. It is really, unless you want to make it, is not much more complicated than that. But because there are 2 different races involved we are in the situation that we ALL are in.

I don't think I have read that every poster, including myself, feels that taking away programs in the event that the name/logo is changed is the answer. Some might feel that way? But again that is their opinion. I agree that Federal funds are allocated as such and are marked as they are. But why not re-prioritize what is coming to the NA school from the tax paying public and private contributions, not specifically marked for the NA college. Why keep supporting, to the highest level, the programs that are there for NAs? Jeanotte is a prime example. He is a leader of the NA college, but when was the last time you heard him say anything positive about UND or it's leadership?? Now some might find these comments in a racist tone. Not the case. Racist--no but anti-entitlement without accountability--yes. Whether you are white, green, yellow or red should not determine the "gift" you receive from the college you attend. Why are tensions high on campus?? Because to the normal 18-19 year old white student working a job or 2 to pay for an education, it is difficult to watch those who are different than them getting a "gift" and at the same time claiming to be in an "abusive and hostile" enviroment. If the logo/name is retired--fine. Federal dollars marked to the NA college--fine. But you want to help solve some of the forseeable tensions on campus, make those who want to attend UND earn their admission and education. Not to take "things" way but to be more consistent in how "things" are divided.

I have read this thread without my GREEN glasses on and I find it interesting that your experiences and views seem to trump everyone elses. 1) I previously mentioned MY experience with a NA while at UND and what happened to him as he returned to the reservation--irrelevant?? 2) I have a friend who left Untied Tribes as an educator and one that left Standing Rock HS because they felt that there was too much pressure AGAINST those who wished to better themselves by those you describe as "losers" and it was a continual uphill battle--racist?? 3) I too have practiced with other NAs and in areas where I see/have seen NAs so I do know of what experiences you speak of--tinted?? Our experiences are different so our perpectives are different, and yours are respected. I just hope mine are as well. No more tit for tat. I think we are in agreement on many of these issues but again just see them from a different perspective.

Please enlighten me. What do YOU see as being wrong, racist, ect... Your view/opinion is just that as is mine, but when you start throwing around RACISM because someone's view differs from yours, you might want to stay out of it. We are dealing with that mentailty from the Jeanottes and His Horse Is Thunders of the world. Please wait to reply as I'm getting my popcorn ready in anticipation as to what wisdom I am going to hear.

The theory behind your argument is sound, but have you seen what you theorize? Just asking. I went to school at UND with a NA who I became friends with. He went back to a reservation to do all the things you talk about, but got sucked back into the same "culture" that is prevelent and still exists. Is that racist? Depending on what colored glasses you are looking thru. Until the reservation mentality changes there won't be change as they see educated NAs who try to come back to make a difference as being too "white".

People in this state know what their "history" has been over the past few decades and unfortunately that is what will be remembered...not their honorable "heritage" of years ago.

Enough with any communication with the Sioux tribes. Change tha name on the time table set by UND. Make Indian students adhere to the same admission criteria as their peers. I can see someone challenging the INMED program if the nickname/logo is changed. Was at a FB game a couple of years ago and was standing at the north endzone walk-way. Struck up a conversation with a professor within the Engineering dept. about the logo/nickname issue. This person said that 3M was looking to grant 2 full scholarships to Indian student within the Engineering department. The problem, according to this prof., was that they could NOT find 2 QUALIFIED Indians student to give the scholarships to as their math skills were not even close to the other students applying for a slot in the engineering program. So proceed as UND sees fit and own their own terms and treat the Indian students EQUALLY as their peers and then what to hear the cries of "Injustice' again down the road.

Take away the two 6 goal games and that leaves 14 goals in the remaining 7 games...not the proper output for the overall talent UND has.

2 things that I am thankful for this NFL season: 1) Favre--Still one of the most exciting players to watch game in and game out. 2) Ziggy kidnapping Childress from boarding a plane to interview in Titletown so the Vikings could sign him. His reign so far has been Steckle-like GO PACK GO

We have a winner!!

I do get and understand the point you are making. Not that long ago, David Gipp, president of United Tribes Technical College in Bismarck, ND, was qouted as saying UND's "meddling" in this 3 year negotation period will cause "untold damage" in the "lives of good people and families". When I hear that I think what truly is at the root of the "real" "untold damage" to his people. Maybe the issues mentioned above? But again there is no voice from Indian leadership on these issues. So I see what you are saying, but to the average "white" person looking in from the outside on this issue, it doesn't seem to be reasonable when the Indian community in this state has so many more preceived "pressing" issues. Have a good day as well.

Priorities--that is the issue that I have and probably lots of other "whites". If the logo/name is their priority, then they have MORE issues than are preceived. They don't seem to care as you NEVER hear anything about the issues and what they are doing about them. Same social issues--yes, but to the alarming rates as other ethnic groups (in this state)?? You could do better than that. Stereotyping--again another PC mantra for ignoring the real issues. By the way, you seem to have a pretty good handle on stereotyping yourself. Again, you see this one way, and your opinion is taken under asdvisement, but I see it another and I'll leave it at that.

The issues that I think we'll agree to disagree on is the hypocritical defenses. The Anti-Sioux crowd tends to be of one of 2 factions--PC crowd or Native Americans. Now do they have a right to their opposition--again YES. But the PC group barks at anything they deem not right or correct. The Indian oppositon is because of how they feel, and I have seen written and heard, "violated, racism, abused"...all of which are probably more than valid. BUT where is the PC/Indian crowd in voicing their concerns with the true Native American issues that have plagued generations after generations. You want to talk about hypocritical?? A name and logo are bigger issues to Native Americans than high rate of teen pregnancies, single family homes, high school drop-outs, alcoholism, should I continue? It would be refreshing to hear Jeanotte, His Horse Is Thunder and all the other Indian "leaders" address real issues with the same passion as they are in fighting the name/logo issue. But it is never as glamorous to clean one's own house as it is to try to point out the mess in someone else's house!

Gets back to being committed to the team and not yourself. Also speaks of integrity and character. Some people have it and some don't...AG?? All I know is AG is not with the TEAM!