[The Sicatoka]

TRex, on Dec 16 2007, 09:01 PM, said:

I find it most ironic that anyone who opposes keeping the Sioux name is labeled "extremely biased", but it's implied that nickname supporters are somehow regarded as open minded.

For there to be irony you'd need to show me a pro-moniker person presenting research results as "unbiased".

TRex, on Dec 16 2007, 09:01 PM, said:

Dana Williams did an excellent job of spelling out the issues in his "Pedigree" article.

Forgive me for not respecting the work of an "academic" that doesn't know the word pedigree refers to a person's geneology or lineage (even though it is most commenly used in the realm of the American Kennel Club).

[PCM]

TRex, on Dec 16 2007, 09:01 PM, said:

I find it most ironic that anyone who opposes keeping the Sioux name is labeled "extremely biased", but it's implied that nickname supporters are somehow regarded as open minded.

No, that's not it at all. Williams' research is being presented in the news as if it's something new and different conducted by a man of science. There is nothing new about it, and Williams ability to conduct objective scientific research is clearly clouded by his personal involvement in the issue.

Quote

Dana Williams did an excellent job of spelling out the issues in his "Pedigree" article.

Obviously, you don't mind having your intelligence insulted. I do.

[Goon]

The Sicatoka, on Dec 16 2007, 11:07 PM, said:

I'd like the real voice of the Sioux people to be heard. No pundits. No axes to grind.

Hold the on-reservation vote.

Let them vote their future.

That is what I would like to see as well...

[Goon]

Fargo Forum insults are intel as well...

Quote

A survey published this month in the Sociology of Sport Journal says American Indian students interviewed in 2000 overwhelmingly opposed the nickname and did not view it as honoring them.

Dana Williams, a UND alumnus and author of the study, said it’s the first statistically sound evidence of American Indian student opinion at UND. Though the data is seven years old, Williams said he doesn’t think attitudes have changed that much.

I can't believe that no one isn't challenging this. The media is wheeling this guy out like he is a some credible objective researcher.

[ScottM]

Goon, on Dec 16 2007, 11:16 PM, said:

Fargo Forum insults are intel as well...

Quote

A survey published this month in the Sociology of Sport Journal says American Indian students interviewed in 2000 overwhelmingly opposed the nickname and did not view it as honoring them.

Dana Williams, a UND alumnus and author of the study, said it’s the first statistically sound evidence of American Indian student opinion at UND. Though the data is seven years old, Williams said he doesn’t think attitudes have changed that much.

I can't believe that no one isn't challenging this. The media is wheeling this guy out like he is a some credible objective researcher.

I would presume the Harris(?) Poll conducted some years amongs NAs ago had more statistical rigor and less bias than Herr Williams' canned "study". Then again, expecting the Fargo Fraud to present an even-handed account of this issue is like expecting a woman to not change her mind in 2 minutes.

[PCM]

The Forum has a story today about UND's American Indian programs. It's a pretty good story, except it takes the approach that the university isn't doing enough and that the nickname is an impediment to progress.

Trouble is, the story doesn't ask the question of how UND's number of American Indian students and Native American programs compares to other public universities in the region. Because when you compare UND to NDSU, SDSU and USD, there is no comparison. UND puts them to shame. In fact, it puts Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa -- all schools the won't play UND because of its nickname -- to shame in terms of numbers of American Indians students, programs for them and educational opportunities for them.

Sadly, I suspect that the day is approaching when UND will be more like the the other public universities in the region, not less.

[Oxbow6]

PCM, on Dec 17 2007, 10:44 AM, said:

The Forum has a story today about UND's American Indian programs. It's a pretty good story, except it takes the approach that the university isn't doing enough and that the nickname is an impediment to progress.
Trouble is, the story doesn't ask the question of how UND's number of American Indian students and Native American programs compares to other public universities in the region. Because when you compare UND to NDSU, SDSU and USD, there is no comparison. UND puts them to shame. In fact, it puts Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa -- all schools the won't play UND because of its nickname -- to shame in terms of numbers of American Indians students, programs for them and educational opportunities for them.

Sadly, I suspect that the day is approaching when UND will be more like the the other public universities in the region, not less.

As could be predicted, Jeanotte says more progress could be made if more money was available for NA students and it's programs. Of course, it seems easy to say success is tied to dollars and lack of success is due to the nickname issue. When hasn't that been Jeanotte's mantra??

[SoCalSiouxFan]

Must read Patrick C. Miller article for Fighting Sioux Fans.
Nice to see someone get the word out as to how student athletes compete with pride and inspiration when they wear the Sioux crest.

http://www.uscho.com/news/college-hockey/i...nspiration.html

Also some insightful and positive feedback in the message board regarding this article.

[LeftyZL]

PCM, on Dec 17 2007, 08:44 AM, said:

The Forum has a story today about UND's American Indian programs. It's a pretty good story, except it takes the approach that the university isn't doing enough and that the nickname is an impediment to progress.

Trouble is, the story doesn't ask the question of how UND's number of American Indian students and Native American programs compares to other public universities in the region. Because when you compare UND to NDSU, SDSU and USD, there is no comparison. UND puts them to shame. In fact, it puts Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa -- all schools the won't play UND because of its nickname -- to shame in terms of numbers of American Indians students, programs for them and educational opportunities for them.

Sadly, I suspect that the day is approaching when UND will be more like the the other public universities in the region, not less.

"It’s also important to attract more American Indian faculty and staff to UND, Gipp said.
That can be a challenge, Jeanotte said, because many American Indians want to return to the reservation after they get their education."

"David Gipp, president of United Tribes Technical College and a UND alumnus, said UND should develop even more partnerships with the tribal colleges."

Excuse me, but why does it always seem to me that the ball is always in UND's court regarding what could be done better with Native American students/faculty? Why can't Mr. Gipp, who is president of United Tribes Technical College, approach UND with potential partnerships? It's a two-way street...Again, if a Native American is qualified to become a part of UND's faculty/staff, no one is stopping them but themselves. I understand that it's usually easier to work and live when you're closer to home, but you have to go where the money is. UND posts their job openings/opportunities all the time. Some postitions are more glamorous than others. But no one is stopping them from applying.

[PCM]

SoCalSiouxFan, on Dec 17 2007, 11:34 AM, said:

Must read Patrick C. Miller article for Fighting Sioux Fans.
Nice to see someone get the word out as to how student athletes compete with pride and inspiration when they wear the Sioux crest.

Thanks, but I think this USCHO opinion piece, although somewhat dated, goes straight to the heart of the Forum story.

[TRex]

PCM, on Dec 16 2007, 09:34 PM, said:

TRex, on Dec 16 2007, 09:01 PM, said:

I find it most ironic that anyone who opposes keeping the Sioux name is labeled "extremely biased", but it's implied that nickname supporters are somehow regarded as open minded.

No, that's not it at all. Williams' research is being presented in the news as if it's something new and different conducted by a man of science. There is nothing new about it, and Williams ability to conduct objective scientific research is clearly clouded by his personal involvement in the issue.

Quote

Dana Williams did an excellent job of spelling out the issues in his "Pedigree" article.

Obviously, you don't mind having your intelligence insulted. I do.

I highly respect the forthright manner that Dana Williams used to layout the problems of using the Sioux name. There was nothing insulting about the Williams article. The insults come from a clientele who insist on clinging to an outdated name.

Several weeks ago, I really felt like we were making progress as most posters here were openly accepting the retirement of the Sioux name and looking at acceptable replacements. It almost appears that we are starting to take a step or two backwards.

It's time to move forward. Nokota is a name I would find very pleasing.

[PCM]

TRex, on Dec 17 2007, 09:26 PM, said:

It almost appears that we are starting to take a step or two backwards.

I have accepted that the Fighting Sioux nickname is probably gone. That doesn't mean that I suddenly accept the rationale of Dana Williams or any of the other nickname opponents. Their arguements are just as weak as they've always been. Fortunately for them, they've gained leverage against UND through the University of Minnesota. So it's not that they're suddenly making sense. It's that they've found an ally they didn't have before and they've succeeded in using it to turn the tide.

[The Sicatoka]

TRex, on Dec 17 2007, 09:26 PM, said:

PCM, on Dec 16 2007, 09:34 PM, said:

TRex, on Dec 16 2007, 09:01 PM, said:

I find it most ironic that anyone who opposes keeping the Sioux name is labeled "extremely biased", but it's implied that nickname supporters are somehow regarded as open minded.

No, that's not it at all. Williams' research is being presented in the news as if it's something new and different conducted by a man of science. There is nothing new about it, and Williams ability to conduct objective scientific research is clearly clouded by his personal involvement in the issue.

Quote

Dana Williams did an excellent job of spelling out the issues in his "Pedigree" article.

Obviously, you don't mind having your intelligence insulted. I do.

I highly respect the forthright manner that Dana Williams used to layout the problems of using the Sioux name. There was nothing insulting about the Williams article. The insults come from a clientele who insist on clinging to an outdated name.

Several weeks ago, I really felt like we were making progress as most posters here were openly accepting the retirement of the Sioux name and looking at acceptable replacements. It almost appears that we are starting to take a step or two backwards.

It's time to move forward. Nokota is a name I would find very pleasing.

Dear TRex,

Did you get permission from the British rock band to use their name? Did you get it in writing? Did they give it to you? Did you even ask? If not, you should stop. No, you must stop. Only that group can decide how their name should be used. You must stop. You must change. You are immoral if you do not. Their name is their name and you shouldn't use it for your personal entertainment.

(Hopefully you're a student of irony and satire. If not, that just flew over your head.)

[TRex]

The Sicatoka, on Dec 18 2007, 08:25 AM, said:

TRex, on Dec 17 2007, 09:26 PM, said:

PCM, on Dec 16 2007, 09:34 PM, said:

TRex, on Dec 16 2007, 09:01 PM, said:

I find it most ironic that anyone who opposes keeping the Sioux name is labeled "extremely biased", but it's implied that nickname supporters are somehow regarded as open minded.

No, that's not it at all. Williams' research is being presented in the news as if it's something new and different conducted by a man of science. There is nothing new about it, and Williams ability to conduct objective scientific research is clearly clouded by his personal involvement in the issue.

Quote

Dana Williams did an excellent job of spelling out the issues in his "Pedigree" article.

Obviously, you don't mind having your intelligence insulted. I do.

I highly respect the forthright manner that Dana Williams used to layout the problems of using the Sioux name. There was nothing insulting about the Williams article. The insults come from a clientele who insist on clinging to an outdated name.

Several weeks ago, I really felt like we were making progress as most posters here were openly accepting the retirement of the Sioux name and looking at acceptable replacements. It almost appears that we are starting to take a step or two backwards.

It's time to move forward. Nokota is a name I would find very pleasing.

Dear TRex,

Did you get permission from the British rock band to use their name? Did you get it in writing? Did they give it to you? Did you even ask? If not, you should stop. No, you must stop. Only that group can decide how their name should be used. You must stop. You must change. You are immoral if you do not. Their name is their name and you shouldn't use it for your personal entertainment.

(Hopefully you're a student of irony and satire. If not, that just flew over your head.)

I did, in fact get my name from that band. If they go public and tell me I'm offending them, YES, I would switch it. Nothing ironic about it. I'm against us using the Sioux name because the namesakes are opposed to it. Get it?

[The Sicatoka]

TRex, on Dec 18 2007, 08:37 AM, said:

... the namesake leadership are opposed to it.

Clarified your post there.

Like I said before, I want the "band members" not their "managers" to tell me their opinion.


Let the tribe vote.

If they choose to disregard the wishes of the tribal leaders in the 1960s, so be it. I will learn who they are by their actions. And I will respond accordingly.

[sioux7>5]

TRex, on Dec 18 2007, 08:37 AM, said:

The Sicatoka, on Dec 18 2007, 08:25 AM, said:

TRex, on Dec 17 2007, 09:26 PM, said:

PCM, on Dec 16 2007, 09:34 PM, said:

TRex, on Dec 16 2007, 09:01 PM, said:

I find it most ironic that anyone who opposes keeping the Sioux name is labeled "extremely biased", but it's implied that nickname supporters are somehow regarded as open minded.

No, that's not it at all. Williams' research is being presented in the news as if it's something new and different conducted by a man of science. There is nothing new about it, and Williams ability to conduct objective scientific research is clearly clouded by his personal involvement in the issue.

Quote

Dana Williams did an excellent job of spelling out the issues in his "Pedigree" article.

Obviously, you don't mind having your intelligence insulted. I do.

I highly respect the forthright manner that Dana Williams used to layout the problems of using the Sioux name. There was nothing insulting about the Williams article. The insults come from a clientele who insist on clinging to an outdated name.

Several weeks ago, I really felt like we were making progress as most posters here were openly accepting the retirement of the Sioux name and looking at acceptable replacements. It almost appears that we are starting to take a step or two backwards.

It's time to move forward. Nokota is a name I would find very pleasing.

Dear TRex,

Did you get permission from the British rock band to use their name? Did you get it in writing? Did they give it to you? Did you even ask? If not, you should stop. No, you must stop. Only that group can decide how their name should be used. You must stop. You must change. You are immoral if you do not. Their name is their name and you shouldn't use it for your personal entertainment.

(Hopefully you're a student of irony and satire. If not, that just flew over your head.)

I did, in fact get my name from that band. If they go public and tell me I'm offending them, YES, I would switch it. Nothing ironic about it. I'm against us using the Sioux name because the namesakes are opposed to it. Get it?

But they are not opposed to it, a few of the leaders are against it and they are making it a political stance and not listening to their citizens. The MAJORITY of Native Americans on the reservations are for the name, but their leaders are trying to make a name for themselves. Do you GET THAT!

[Sioux-cia]

At work, I spoke with a woman from a SD Sioux reservation. She was very upset. A friend of her's had someone come to her home the night before. The woman was asking for powdered eggs so she could feed her children. The friend gave the woman what she could. The woman in my office was angry, sad and crying. She said the tribal leaders had just voted themselves a $500. Christmas bonus, each. She said, "There are people who don't have food to eat and they give themselves a bonus. They don't deserve a bonus."

[82SiouxGuy]

I found this Op/ed piece from a couple of years ago in the New York Times. I don't know if it was posted here before or not, but I think it has some great information on how Florida State works with the Seminole tribe. It may be a blueprint for UND, although it may be too late to make it work. The piece was written by Jim Shore who was the general counsel for the Seminole Tribe at that time (I don't know if he still holds that position).

Quote

While the Seminole Tribe of Florida gets no financial compensation for the university's use of the Seminole name and related symbols, the richness of the relationship brings a variety of social and economic benefits to our tribe.

Quote

The university also reached out to the tribe in other ways. For years, Florida State University has invited Seminole Tribe high school students to visit its Tallahassee campus. The university organizes an annual summer trip to encourage young Seminoles to apply for admission. And the program is working. This fall, four new Seminole students will join four already enrolled there.

Quote

The school also uses printed materials and statewide television broadcasts to share with the public the history and culture of the Seminole Tribe so that our non-Indian neighbors have a better sense of who we are, where we came from and how deep our historical roots are in Florida.

The key seems to be working at a relationship that makes sense for both sides.

[sioux7>5]

82SiouxGuy, on Dec 18 2007, 12:18 PM, said:

I found this Op/ed piece from a couple of years ago in the New York Times. I don't know if it was posted here before or not, but I think it has some great information on how Florida State works with the Seminole tribe. It may be a blueprint for UND, although it may be too late to make it work. The piece was written by Jim Shore who was the general counsel for the Seminole Tribe at that time (I don't know if he still holds that position).

Quote

While the Seminole Tribe of Florida gets no financial compensation for the university's use of the Seminole name and related symbols, the richness of the relationship brings a variety of social and economic benefits to our tribe.

Quote

The university also reached out to the tribe in other ways. For years, Florida State University has invited Seminole Tribe high school students to visit its Tallahassee campus. The university organizes an annual summer trip to encourage young Seminoles to apply for admission. And the program is working. This fall, four new Seminole students will join four already enrolled there.

Quote

The school also uses printed materials and statewide television broadcasts to share with the public the history and culture of the Seminole Tribe so that our non-Indian neighbors have a better sense of who we are, where we came from and how deep our historical roots are in Florida.

The key seems to be working at a relationship that makes sense for both sides.

WOW they have a grand total of 4 seminole students with 4 more coming, that is huge. What a joke. FSU is a much larger school then UND and they have 8 students that are of the namesake tribe. How many does UND have? Many more. That just goes to show, that the NCAA is more worried about money then anything

[82SiouxGuy]

sioux7>5, on Dec 18 2007, 12:27 PM, said:

WOW they have a grand total of 4 seminole students with 4 more coming, that is huge. What a joke. FSU is a much larger school then UND and they have 8 students that are of the namesake tribe. How many does UND have? Many more. That just goes to show, that the NCAA is more worried about money then anything

That was the fall of 2005 so we don't know the exact numbers for this semester. But I doubt that they have increased to anywhere near the number of Dakota, Lakota and Nakota students at UND.