[PCM]

From today's Grand Forks Herald (headline corrected):

UND: Judge seals NCAA filings

Quote

A judge's order dated Friday seals all future documents filed by either side in UND's court case against the NCAA over the school's continued use of the Fighting Sioux nickname.

The order from Grand Forks County District Court Judge Lawrence Jahnke states “both parties have continued good faith negotiations with an eye toward settling the issues of this litigation amicably,” and he links the decision to seal documents to aiding settlement talks.

“At such time as it appears to the court that settlement negotiations have reached an impasse and trial will be necessary, this order will be immediately rescinded,” the order states.

Very interesting.

[squirtcoach]

Same in the Pioneer press

http://www.twincities.com/allheadlines/ci_...?nclick_check=1

Secretive court, over a nickname dispute? Must have national security implications.

[star2city]

PCM, on Sep 19 2007, 09:19 AM, said:

From today's Grand Forks Herald (headline corrected):

UND: Judge seals NCAA filings

Quote

A judge's order dated Friday seals all future documents filed by either side in UND's court case against the NCAA over the school's continued use of the Fighting Sioux nickname.

Quote

“I opposed the motion because I'm an advocate of open records,” Stenehjem said in a statement delivered through a spokesperson. “The judge nonetheless felt, in the interest of further possible settlement discussions, he would seal the record and we, of course, will comply.”

Could the sealing of records imply that the documents have some rather embarassing revelations about the NCAA's behavior in this case, or is this standard procedure?

[Sioux-cia]

star2city, on Sep 19 2007, 09:42 AM, said:

......, or is this standard procedure?

This would indicate not,

Quote

North Dakota Newspaper Association attorney Jack McDonald said it's unusual to place a blanket seal on all documents filed in a court case. He described it as akin to closing a courtroom. More typically, he said, a judge would choose to seal individual documents that contain particularly sensitive information and provide an explanation why less restrictive measures to protect the information would be insufficient.

[siouxguyinstpaul]

I think the judge REALLY wants this settled and not have it go to court.

[star2city]

Owl mascot unsettling for members of tribe

Quote

Jarrid Smith almost did not come to Florida Atlantic to play football because of the school's mascot.

"An owl is a sign that death is coming in my culture," said Smith, a member of the Seminole Tribe of Florida. "It was a big deal to me, but a bigger deal to my mom."

"It still is tough," said Camellia Smith, who has been to all but one of her son's games during his career at FAU. "It is a deep, traditional thing. I still think about it." ...

"We have FAU things around the house, but nothing with that bird on it," Camellia Smith said.

[Chewey]

So, what the hell does this mean in real terms? Perhaps the availability of all docs would improve "settlement" chances because the NC00 would be exposed. I don't see how doing what the Judge did improves "settlement" chances. What do you think is really going on behind closed doors? Personally, I think that the NC00 is being told that when this goes to trial some embarassing stuff will pop up. Maybe the NC00 is searching for a way to "honorably" exit the process, save some face and lick its wounds. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic?

[ScottM]

I think, in practical terms, the sides have probably been talking, and at times have been close. However, it's possible that given possible "skeletons" in the parties' closets, such as internal memos, depositions, etc., that the judge decided to effectively go dark with the proceedings to avoid petty, marginal issues getting in the way of a final resolution.

As a practical matter, I'm surprised some media group hasn't already moved for a lifting of the order.

[THETRIOUXPER]

star2city, on Sep 19 2007, 11:29 AM, said:

Owl mascot unsettling for members of tribe

Quote

Jarrid Smith almost did not come to Florida Atlantic to play football because of the school's mascot.

"An owl is a sign that death is coming in my culture," said Smith, a member of the Seminole Tribe of Florida. "It was a big deal to me, but a bigger deal to my mom."

"It still is tough," said Camellia Smith, who has been to all but one of her son's games during his career at FAU. "It is a deep, traditional thing. I still think about it." ...

"We have FAU things around the house, but nothing with that bird on it," Camellia Smith said.

This is something I alluded to a few months ago. There are many animals that are symbolic to native americans, in one way ore another. let's see, bison, eagles, ect. look out ndsu and bc, you may find yourself in a similar situation someday.

[Chewey]

THETRIOUXPER, on Sep 20 2007, 09:27 AM, said:

star2city, on Sep 19 2007, 11:29 AM, said:

Owl mascot unsettling for members of tribe

Quote

Jarrid Smith almost did not come to Florida Atlantic to play football because of the school's mascot.

"An owl is a sign that death is coming in my culture," said Smith, a member of the Seminole Tribe of Florida. "It was a big deal to me, but a bigger deal to my mom."

"It still is tough," said Camellia Smith, who has been to all but one of her son's games during his career at FAU. "It is a deep, traditional thing. I still think about it." ...

"We have FAU things around the house, but nothing with that bird on it," Camellia Smith said.

This is something I alluded to a few months ago. There are many animals that are symbolic to native americans, in one way ore another. let's see, bison, eagles, ect. look out ndsu and bc, you may find yourself in a similar situation someday.

Asinine. Simply asinine. I agree with you.

[Goon]

star2city, on Sep 19 2007, 11:42 AM, said:

Could the sealing of records imply that the documents have some rather embarassing revelations about the NCAA's behavior in this case, or is this standard procedure?

I think that what some of us have been pontificating about.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

ScottM, on Sep 19 2007, 12:06 PM, said:

However, it's possible that given possible "skeletons" in the parties' closets, such as internal memos, depositions, etc., that the judge decided to effectively go dark with the proceedings to avoid petty, marginal issues getting in the way of a final resolution.

Its JMHO, but I think that any resolution would need a tribal signoff on the use of the name-and I don't think that's close to happening. Therefore, those embarrassing memos will see the light of day sooner or later. It just seems to me that if this judge is holding out hope for a out-of-court settlement, he could be in for a long wait.

THETRIOUXPER, on Sep 20 2007, 09:27 AM, said:

There are many animals that are symbolic to native americans, in one way ore another. let's see, bison, eagles, ect. look out ndsu and bc, you may find yourself in a similar situation someday.

One of my favorite subjects too: why limit this to those Native Americans who can trace their tribes to locations within the current boundaries of the continental United States? Shouldn't we respect all religions? Shouldn't the Longhorns have to change to avoid offending people who worship sacred cows? How about Alabama giving up that elephant because some societies worship elephants?

And finally, my own university got quite an award: its called a "Worsty", and the Illinois Press Association handed it out because the University violated the Open Meetings Act when they canned Chief. It's well deserved.

A Worsty for our cowardly Board of Trustees

[mksioux]

Chief Illiniwek Supporter, on Sep 21 2007, 12:01 PM, said:

It just seems to me that if this judge is holding out hope for a out-of-court settlement, he could be in for a long wait.

Maybe. But I think it's more likely that the attorneys are giving the Judge a reason to think that they are making progress and settlement is possible. That doesn't mean it will happen, but it's certainly possible.

It would be interesting to know whether this case has mediated yet and who the mediator was or will be. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure N.D. is a state that requires ADR.

[SoCalSiouxFan]

http://www.indianmascots.com/

Interesting anti indian mascot site on the web. I was kind of comcerned with the map of Wisconsin where they have the locations of the indian named schools.

Just from looking at the map it almost looked like they were waging some sort of war game where the object of the game is to wipe out all indian names off the map.

[GeauxSioux]

VIEWPOINT: Timing couldn't be worse to change nickname, logo

Quote

The Sioux are a great nation whose people settled on the northern Plains and have contributed so much to the development of this region. I believe UND and its respectful use of the Sioux nickname and logo is, perhaps, modern America's most powerful way to promote the history, culture and positive attributes of the Great Sioux Nation throughout the Great Plains and the U.S.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

mksioux, on Sep 21 2007, 01:05 PM, said:

Maybe. But I think it's more likely that the attorneys are giving the Judge a reason to think that they are making progress and settlement is possible. That doesn't mean it will happen, but it's certainly possible.

I guess I'm wondering what the people on this board (and I'm specifically excluding the University administrators, trustees and so on) would be willing to "give up" as part of the settlement. AFAIK, you have two bargaining chips: the name "Sioux" and the logo. As I have read the board, I'd say most of the people here are unwilling to sacrifice either of those things. Therefore I couldn't see any resolution that would be supported by the average North Dakota fan. (And that's why I excluded the administrators from my argument above. The only way I could imagine the University saying they were making progress is if they were willing to give up something under certain conditions-but they wanted to present it as a fait acompli to the public, avoiding a political backlash during negotiations.)

[mksioux]

Chief Illiniwek Supporter, on Sep 27 2007, 01:11 PM, said:

AFAIK, you have two bargaining chips: the name "Sioux" and the logo. As I have read the board, I'd say most of the people here are unwilling to sacrifice either of those things. Therefore I couldn't see any resolution that would be supported by the average North Dakota fan.

Actually, we have three chips. "Fighting", "Sioux", and the logo. I agree that nobody would stand for dropping "Sioux" or the logo, but I can maybe see a save-face settlement where UND drops "Fighting" from its "Fighting Sioux" nickname and retains Sioux and the logo.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

mksioux, on Sep 27 2007, 12:39 PM, said:

Actually, we have three chips. "Fighting", "Sioux", and the logo. I agree that nobody would stand for dropping "Sioux" or the logo, but I can maybe see a save-face settlement where UND drops "Fighting" from its "Fighting Sioux" nickname and retains Sioux and the logo.

If the NCAA would offer that, I'd think most North Dakota fans would take it and run like a thief, laughing so hard it would make their sides ache for the rest of all time.

Personally, I can't imagine the NCAA offering this one, but who knows what will happen. And if this did happen, I wonder what they (the NCAA) would say to William and Mary (just to choose someone else that was screwed over). IIRC, that school was forced to drop the two feathers they had as a logo but the NCAA was okay with the name "Tribe".

It will be interesting to see whatever happens. And one hundred years from now, if anyone can make any sense of what all of this mess created by the NCAA actually meant, they'll be wondering "what were they thinking?"

[dagies]

mksioux, on Sep 27 2007, 12:39 PM, said:

Chief Illiniwek Supporter, on Sep 27 2007, 01:11 PM, said:

AFAIK, you have two bargaining chips: the name "Sioux" and the logo. As I have read the board, I'd say most of the people here are unwilling to sacrifice either of those things. Therefore I couldn't see any resolution that would be supported by the average North Dakota fan.

Actually, we have three chips. "Fighting", "Sioux", and the logo. I agree that nobody would stand for dropping "Sioux" or the logo, but I can maybe see a save-face settlement where UND drops "Fighting" from its "Fighting Sioux" nickname and retains Sioux and the logo.

I know at one time in the past "Fighting" was seen as a big part of the problem with the nickname. I didn't get it then and I don't get it now, and IMO it doesn't get much play anymore. If that's really a chip I'll be surprised. A warrior is a fighter. In having a Sioux warrior as a logo, I never understood why "Fighting" was somehow a problem in the nickname. IMO that's what our nickname is. The Sioux warrior of the plains. The best light cavalry in the world at the time. They didn't get their reputation planting cucumbers.

[Chewey]

mksioux, on Sep 27 2007, 12:39 PM, said:

Chief Illiniwek Supporter, on Sep 27 2007, 01:11 PM, said:

AFAIK, you have two bargaining chips: the name "Sioux" and the logo. As I have read the board, I'd say most of the people here are unwilling to sacrifice either of those things. Therefore I couldn't see any resolution that would be supported by the average North Dakota fan.

Actually, we have three chips. "Fighting", "Sioux", and the logo. I agree that nobody would stand for dropping "Sioux" or the logo, but I can maybe see a save-face settlement where UND drops "Fighting" from its "Fighting Sioux" nickname and retains Sioux and the logo.

We should not be giving up any of them. The NC00 should get nothing from its "policy" dictates at all. Giving anything just gives the same malcontents more reason to crawl out of the walls again later.