Standing Rock/Spirit Lake

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Why in the He!! did the AG agree that both tribes need to give permission?? For everyone else, only one tribe is supposedly required right? I think it would be possible to get the Spirit Lake Tribe on board but I'm not so sure about the Standing Rock Tribe. I agree that the state should have gone forward to trial and made the NC00 change its bylaws formally. I still am not convinced that the NC00 would have had the votes to do that but I am a total outsider. I still would like to think that the AG and the state officials know something about possibilities that I don't. The tribes would be pretty stupid, financially speaking, to not come to some agreement with UND. But like my dad who works on a res says, "rational thinking is not really part of the native mindset" or the PC mindset for that matter.

And a lot of others on this thread expressed much the same thoughts.

The "absent" members of the committee wouldn't make a difference IMHO. Those militant enough to vote against the nickname were the ones who were motivated enough to get there last night. I have a feeling that the others will just go along with the already expressed (overwhelming) majority.

And from MKSioux:

I was not optimistic about reaching an agreement with the tribes, but I didn't realize the name change would come this quickly. It appears the NDUS is pretty much conceding defeat.

NDUS chancellor: 'Consensus' exists to retire 'Sioux' nickname, logo sooner than 3 years if compromise with tribes not reached

It looks they'll take one stab at negotiations, and if it fails, the nickname is done.

I agree with your thoughts. And furthermore, the words "consensus soluition" was used as a euphimism for "surrender to the PC nutjobs" at Illinois. I can't be optimistic about the survival of your nickname.

[SiouxCrioux1]

The majority, if not all, the NA programs at UND are federally funded. The University of North Dakota will be the one who loses if it does away with the programs because, I believe, they get a share of that money.

As I said in another thread, we don't have Native American programs so we can keep/use the Fighting Sioux name and logo. We have them because our institution is in North Dakota and it's the right thing to do. We offer Native American programs so NAs can get an education, so they can shed the cloak of 'victim', so they can move forward. Hopefully, they go back to their reservations and help fight alcoholism, promote health and education, and stop the vicious cycle of 'us against them'.

I think we have to look at this issue in it's entierty. We know that the majority of NA's do not object to the name. The current tribal leaders are the one's shoving their personal view points down the throats of those they are suppose to represent. This thread is sounding very racist to this member. '...stop the vicious cycle of 'us against them'. This goes both ways folks.

Well that may be. But how long have we been educating many of them for free and the thanks we get is them calling us racist. And as for the reservations. Alot of help UND has done in this part. If we are educating them to hopefully better their lives and reservations. This is further proof that it is a waste of time and money. Reservations have gone backwards since they started. So I think that if that is UND's grand scheme in educating. Then it's time to wake up and smell the coffee and cut the programs.

[Oxbow6]

The majority, if not all, the NA programs at UND are federally funded. The University of North Dakota will be the one who loses if it does away with the programs because, I believe, they get a share of that money.

As I said in another thread, we don't have Native American programs so we can keep/use the Fighting Sioux name and logo. We have them because our institution is in North Dakota and it's the right thing to do. We offer Native American programs so NAs can get an education, so they can shed the cloak of 'victim', so they can move forward. Hopefully, they go back to their reservations and help fight alcoholism, promote health and education, and stop the vicious cycle of 'us against them'.

I think we have to look at this issue in it's entierty. We know that the majority of NA's do not object to the name. The current tribal leaders are the one's shoving their personal view points down the throats of those they are suppose to represent. This thread is sounding very racist to this member. '...stop the vicious cycle of 'us against them'. This goes both ways folks.

The theory behind your argument is sound, but have you seen what you theorize? Just asking. I went to school at UND with a NA who I became friends with. He went back to a reservation to do all the things you talk about, but got sucked back into the same "culture" that is prevelent and still exists. Is that racist? Depending on what colored glasses you are looking thru. Until the reservation mentality changes there won't be change as they see educated NAs who try to come back to make a difference as being too "white".

[ScottM]

This thread is sounding very racist to this member. '...stop the vicious cycle of 'us against them'. This goes both ways folks.

Then feel free to stay out of it.

[SiouxCrioux1]

The theory behind your argument is sound, but have you seen what you theorize? Just asking. I went to school at UND with a NA who I became friends with. He went back to a reservation to do all the things you talk about, but got sucked back into the same "culture" that is prevelent and still exists. Is that racist? Depending on what colored glasses you are looking thru. Until the reservation mentality changes there won't be change as they see educated NAs who try to come back to make a difference as being too "white".

Agree totally, for every 1 NA that gets an education there are 5 still rotting in their own self pitty.

[The Sicatoka]

Rome fell from within.

I sure hope someone got their 30 pieces of silver.

[mikeypat15]

If negotiations don't go well, let's have the name changed by next year, so we can go D-I with one name which could help with publicity (no confusion).

[Sioux-cia]

Then feel free to stay out of it.

The three blind mice are on the ice and I'm not one of them. The day I keep my mouth shut when I see something I believe is wrong, like racism, is happening/sounding like, etc. is the day I die. So thanks for the offer but no thanks

[Sioux-cia]

The theory behind your argument is sound, but have you seen what you theorize? Just asking. I went to school at UND with a NA who I became friends with. He went back to a reservation to do all the things you talk about, but got sucked back into the same "culture" that is prevelent and still exists. Is that racist? Depending on what colored glasses you are looking thru. Until the reservation mentality changes there won't be change as they see educated NAs who try to come back to make a difference as being too "white".

I have spent the past year working on the Navajo reservation and now am on a reservation in SD. I've seen it ALL. I see Native American health care professional working in the same ER as I am. I see Native American educators working in tribal schools. I see college educated and self educated Native Americans giving back to their communities. I have only seen 'losers' think that educated NA's are 'too white'. The majority of the tribes' members are very proud of those that have 'made it' inspite of all the crap on the rez. AND I've seen all the crap that goes on there as well. Because some fail, we give up on all the rest? Not me.

[Sioux-cia]

Agree totally, for every 1 NA that gets an education there are 5 still rotting in their own self pitty.

Link?

[Godsmack]

Creating reservations was one of the biggest mistakes our government made. Part of the reason for the "us vs. them" mentality and all of the drugs/poverty/crime/poor education that exists on the reservations is due to the nature of the reservations themselves. Its similar to the welfare state created in the 1960's that basically has kept generations of people relying on others to take care of them. They've created a culture of under-achievement and avictim-status attitude.

Again, I think we should retire the name and move on. I do not want to be held hostage to a few people who will hold the threat of taking away their support if we don't give them more $. If we arrange a deal to give them a share of the royalties, we are simply buying them off. I say change the name and let the University keep all of the royalties for the betterment of the school and its students (whether those students are American or Native American).

[PCM]

I have spent the past year working on the Navajo reservation and now am on a reservation in SD. I've seen it ALL. I see Native American health care professional working in the same ER as I am. I see Native American educators working in tribal schools. I see college educated and self educated Native Americans giving back to their communities. I have only seen 'losers' think that educated NA's are 'too white'. The majority of the tribes' members are very proud of those that have 'made it' inspite of all the crap on the rez. AND I've seen all the crap that goes on there as well. Because some fail, we give up on all the rest? Not me.

You've walked the walk. And because of that, I value your opinions on these matters.

[Oxbow6]

The three blind mice are on the ice and I'm not one of them. The day I keep my mouth shut when I see something I believe is wrong, like racism, is happening/sounding like, etc. is the day I die. So thanks for the offer but no thanks

Please enlighten me. What do YOU see as being wrong, racist, ect... Your view/opinion is just that as is mine, but when you start throwing around RACISM because someone's view differs from yours, you might want to stay out of it. We are dealing with that mentailty from the Jeanottes and His Horse Is Thunders of the world.

Please wait to reply as I'm getting my popcorn ready in anticipation as to what wisdom I am going to hear.

[Sioux-cia]

Please enlighten me. What do YOU see as being wrong, racist, ect... Your view/opinion is just that as is mine, but when you start throwing around RACISM because someone's view differs from yours, you might want to stay out of it. We are dealing with that mentailty from the Jeanottes and His Horse Is Thunders of the world.

Please wait to reply as I'm getting my popcorn ready in anticipation as to what wisdom I am going to hear.

If you can read behind those green tinted glasses I suggest you read this thread.

[ScottM]

The three blind mice are on the ice and I'm not one of them. The day I keep my mouth shut when I see something I believe is wrong, like racism, is happening/sounding like, etc. is the day I die. So thanks for the offer but no thanks

It's easy, and intellectually dishonest, to accuse somebody of "racism" because you disagree with their opinions, is it not?

[PCM]

Please enlighten me. What do YOU see as being wrong, racist, ect... Your view/opinion is just that as is mine, but when you start throwing around RACISM because someone's view differs from yours, you might want to stay out of it. We are dealing with that mentailty from the Jeanottes and His Horse Is Thunders of the world.

I don't think anyone here is making statements that they believe to be racist. However, threatening to harm a large group of people based on their race simply because their elected leaders are denying us something we want isn't exactly taking the high road, is it?

The American Indian programs at UND were created in good faith to serve a worthy purpose. Linking those programs to the Fighting Sioux nickname issue and threatening to remove them if the nickname goes away is like hunting rabbits with ICBMs.

[Godsmack]

I don't think anyone here is making statements that they believe to be racist. However, threatening to harm a large group of people based on their race simply because their elected leaders are denying us something we want isn't exactly taking the high road, is it?

The American Indian programs at UND were created in good faith to serve a worthy purpose. Linking those programs to the Fighting Sioux nickname issue and threatening to remove them if the nickname goes away is like hunting rabbits with ICBMs.

Not to mention the tons of money UND receives from the federal gov't. for offering these programs. UND would be crazy to get rid of these programs from both an economic as well as P.R. standpoint.

[PCM]

Not to mention the tons of money UND receives from the federal gov't. for offering these programs. UND would be crazy to get rid of these programs from both an economic as well as P.R. standpoint.

That's probably true, but I think the reasons for starting the programs were closer to what Sioux-cia stated.

[Oxbow6]

If you can read behind those green tinted glasses I suggest you read this thread.

I have read this thread without my GREEN glasses on and I find it interesting that your experiences and views seem to trump everyone elses.

1) I previously mentioned MY experience with a NA while at UND and what happened to him as he returned to the reservation--irrelevant??

2) I have a friend who left Untied Tribes as an educator and one that left Standing Rock HS because they felt that there was too much pressure AGAINST those who wished to better themselves by those you describe as "losers" and it was a continual uphill battle--racist??

3) I too have practiced with other NAs and in areas where I see/have seen NAs so I do know of what experiences you speak of--tinted??

Our experiences are different so our perpectives are different, and yours are respected. I just hope mine are as well. No more tit for tat. I think we are in agreement on many of these issues but again just see them from a different perspective.

[The Sicatoka]

Folks, there's no "do" or "tit for tat" here.

If the name does change, apathy (not action) will follow, real people and programs will be affected, and the blame will all rightly be tied to Ron His Horse is Thunder. Ron's the one that'll have to explain that when he wants to get re-elected. Now do you understand why he complained mightily when this power, that he begged for, came to him?

The rest of us? No threats of cut this or that. Just sit back and watch how other things affecting many North Dakotans (like veterans needs) become higher priority. They will. That's not racist; that's realist.

So I say let's allow Standing Rock to make their decision and let them live with it.

[Sioux-cia]

...yours are respected.

[Sioux-cia]

It's easy, and intellectually dishonest, to accuse somebody of "racism" because you disagree with their opinions, is it not?

I hate the settlement. I hate that we are held prisoners by Sioux tribal leaders. I hate to lose the Fighting Sioux name and logo. I do not blame the entire Sioux nation for the loss. I do not believe we should get rid of Native American programs at UND. I do not believe the the entire Sioux nations is comprised of drunks, druggies, low lifes, etc. I take offense when an entire race is judged on the actions of a few. I call that racism.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/racist

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I don't think anyone here is making statements that they believe to be racist. However, threatening to harm a large group of people based on their race simply because their elected leaders are denying us something we want isn't exactly taking the high road, is it?

I don't agree that the discussion of re-prioritzing the allocation of scarce tax dollars is "threatening" someone with "harm". Every program needs to face a cost/benefit analysis. And if voters judge that what they're spending on programs specifically targeted at one race/nationality aren't living up to what they're costing, then they should be free to spend those dollars where they're going to do the state of North Dakota the most good.

The American Indian programs at UND were created in good faith to serve a worthy purpose. Linking those programs to the Fighting Sioux nickname issue and threatening to remove them if the nickname goes away is like hunting rabbits with ICBMs.

I think a lot of people here are not seeing anything like "good faith" coming from the other side.

No matter what happens with the nickname, people are still entitled to ask if these programs specifically (or any program in general) can accomplish such "worthy purpose(s)".

Long and short of all this: IMHO, programs giving special treatment for some race, class, gender, nationality, whatever are not entitled to funds in perpetuity, and they should be periodically looked at to make sure that they're accomplishing something besides providing a generous salary for otherwise unemployable people.

[ScottM]

I hate the settlement. I hate that we are held prisoners by Sioux tribal leaders. I hate to lose the Fighting Sioux name and logo. I do not blame the entire Sioux nation for the loss. I do not believe we should get rid of Native American programs at UND. I do not believe the the entire Sioux nations is comprised of drunks, druggies, low lifes, etc. I take offense when an entire race is judged on the actions of a few. I call that racism.

So, cite these examples of "racism" or, better yet, refute the opinions you find objectionable with your own arguments. You will not win over anybody by accusing them of something which may be untrue, and for which there is really no defense. Accuse them of being pedophiles while you're at it. Moreover, I find it tiresome to see the "racism card" played, and overplayed, simply because people may advocate changes to programs, funding, etc. that may offend or upset you. It gets real old, real quick, because you fail to produce a contrary position and rely on something from Jackson-Sharpton School of Perpetual Victimization.

[Sioux-cia]

So, cite these examples of "racism" or, better yet, refute the opinions you find objectionable with your own arguments. You will not win over anybody by accusing them of something which may be untrue, and for which there is really no defense. Accuse them of being pedophiles while you're at it. Moreover, I find it tiresome to see the "racism card" played, and overplayed, simply because people may advocate changes to programs, funding, etc. that may offend or upset you. It gets real old, real quick, because you fail to produce a contrary position and rely on something from Jackson-Sharpton School of Perpetual Victimization.

Why do you want me to list what I find racist in this thread? You don't and won't find them to be. I'm not trying to win anyone over who is posting in this thread. I'm posting MY opinion which is mine to post. You don't like it, you don't agree with it and nothing I say or do is going to change that. Please, point out where I use the "racism card" because I believe the UND NA programs should not be eliminated because we can't keep the Fighting Sioux name and logo. The "racism card" is being used by those who believe they should be. Don't put that label on me just because you don't like my position.

AND what the hell does this mean,

It gets real old, real quick, because you fail to produce a contrary position and rely on something from Jackson-Sharpton School of Perpetual Victimization.

I'm been very clear on my 'contrary position'. Your 'cute' Jackson-Sharpton' comment only belittles your position as 'not racist'.