What do we honor and respect about the Sioux?

[larsensa]

are you going to hire an Indian as a computer programmer, or go to an Indian accountant or dentist? Nope.

I actually think quite a few Indians are computer programmers. Have you called tech support for anything lately?

[ScottM]

In our country's history, Indian people have always been depicted as warlike savages because this characterization allowed the Europeans to wipe them out.

Which nearly ignores the fact that tribes and clans were often at war with other as they pushed for their own territories. Sioux vs. Pawnee; Sioux vs. Chippewa (Ojibwe); Blackfeet vs. Crow; Shoshone vs. Cheyenne, etc., not to mention what the eastern tribes like the Iroquois and Huron often did to each other. Not to excuse a good deal of history, but your implication that the tribes were somehow innocent wallflowers is pretty disengenuous. Many tribes "gave as good as they got" with each other, and the US govt and settlers.

[dagies]

In our country's history, Indian people have always been depicted as warlike savages because this characterization allowed the Europeans to wipe them out. It was genocide. The U.S. Army and bands of heavily armed "settlers" marched across the country and killed most of the Indians and rounded up the rest. Indians were no more warlike than any other group of people -- it was a convenient stereotype that was used to justify and make it Politically Correct to kill Indians. That is one reason that American Indians object when those historical stereotypes are used today.

The second reason is that the stereotype hurts the current generation. If all of you have the idea in your brains that Indian people are noble savage warriors - reinforced by thousands of sports images -- are you going to hire an Indian as a computer programmer, or go to an Indian accountant or dentist? Nope.

Does the "Cowboys" nickname mean all we have in our brains of white settlers are tobacco spittin', spur wearing cowpokes? I don't think so.

You have a very limited view of people's ability to think big picture when you use their choice of sports nicknames to assign value to their knowledge.

Oh, wait. After all, maybe I understand better why you would think others would be so limited.

[siouxforeverbaby]

I have learned many things about the Natives from growing up in North Dakota and I was always taught that they were just like us and could be whatever they wanted to be. I don't feel that your background or heritage whatever you want to call it affects how good of a dentist you are. There are many whites that I wouldn't go to as a dentist because of how they act and their performances on the job. As a future educator, I wish that they could get past this idea that they will never get of the reservation and that they did have the idea that they can do anything because I think that too many of them don't have that idea.

In regards to our nickname, I have this image in my head of this warrior who is proud of who he is and would be willing to lay down his life for his family, country, and friends and neighbors. Also, when I was little when somebody said the "Fighting Sioux", I always thought that they were referring to the sports teams. When someone referred to the DAKOTA, LAKOTA, or NAKOTA (sp? sorry I forgot in the recent years), I thought that they were referring to the tribes because I was taught their actual names growing up.

Sorry, end of rant/whatever you want to call this.

[iramurphy]

I think too many people are equating the tribal governments with the native American people. I haven't found that I have a lot of respect nor am I impressed with tribal government that I am familar with, nor for that matter a number of those in leadership postions within the tribes.

As far as the Native American people, they are like people anywhere else. Those that struggle with poverty and the socio-economic problems inherrent on the rez tend to fall into the welfare trap of dependence on others and the associated ills of drug and alcohol abuse and crime. That is not consistent with the American Indian Culture but you will find similarities in all races dependent on others. They tend to be raised by disfunctional families with leaders who lack the skills, experience and leadership qualities to lead their people to a better life. It is easier to blame whatever their problems are on someone else.

You will find that those who take the opportunities to better themselves, take pride in their accomplishments and want their own families to grow up to be responsible citizens and have the opportunity to succeed. There are a lot of examples and many of those who succeed are the least patient with those who remain engulfed in the chains and problems associated with those unfortunate souls who don't believe life can be better.

As I have stated before, it is time for UND to move on but still be willing to consider any request by our states American Indians who wish to re-establish a connection with the people of the State of North Dakota through the use of the Fighting Sioux name at UND. If no tribes come foreword, we should be smart enough to get the message. It is not worth negotiating. I would not be willing to negotiate our honor and dignity to those who have been so insulting and closed minded to what our culture thought was quite an honor to offer them. Their elders and ancestors understood and approved. You don't pay someone to let you honor them.

[larsensa]

You don't pay someone to let you honor them.

EXACTLY!! Well put again iramurphy!

[PCM]

You don't pay someone to let you honor them.

I agree. That's one thing that bothers me whenever the possibility of having a dialogue with the tribes comes up. It's almost always pursued with the idea that there's something we can give or offer the tribes that will enable UND to bestow the intended honor.

I've been fortuate in my life to have several honors bestowed on me. It's never occurred to ask, "That's nice, but what else is in it for me?" The mere fact that someone thought I was worthy of being recognized was enough. I didn't negotiate for the honor, and the mindset that some form of additional payoff is necessary before an honor can be accepted is totally baffling.

The tribes, of course, have every right to reject the honor if they so choose, but they shouldn't expect anyone to grovel and plead to bestow it. Nor should accepting the honor come with conditions and strings attached. Either accept it or don't.

I propose that Gov. Hoeven and other appropriate state and UND officials go to the two Sioux reservations, meet with the tribal councils, explain UND's intention in offering the honor and then say that if the governor doesn't receive an answer within a year, UND will begin the process of changing the name. That will be the end of it. The tribal councils don't have to lift a finger unless they want to, and nobody associated with the state or UND will do any lobbying or negotiating.

EDIT: I also think the delegation that goes to visit the tribal councils needs to be very clear that UND neither condones nor tolerates racism. They could also discuss the plans to make certain that the nickname and logo are used in a dignified and respectful manner.

Edited October 31, 2007 by PCM

[Fetch]

Do tribes have initiated measures - where they can all vote on things ?

[PCM]

Do tribes have initiated measures - where they can all vote on things ?

I don't see that as being our business or our problem.

[larsensa]

The only situation I could see UND having a financial agreement with the Sioux would be if we would look at the situation like the George Foreman Grill. George Foreman didn't make the grill or have anything to do with it but his name made it successful. He gets paid because his name is on it.

Since Sioux Tribes still exist and kinda own their name, maybe UND should give them some cash for the use of it. Treat the situation like Saeco treats George Foreman? The Sioux don't make UND successful but we do want have their name on our school's merchandise that sells and makes a good chunk of cashola. This is the only reason I could see offering a cut of cash via merchandise to the Sioux Tribes. It is their name, maybe they should be able to charge for it's use?

Just a thought.

[PCM]

The only situation I could see UND having a financial agreement with the Sioux would be if we would look at the situation like the George Foreman Grill. George Foreman didn't make the grill or have anything to do with it but his name made it successful. He gets paid because his name is on it.

Since Sioux Tribes still exist and kinda own their name, maybe UND should give them some cash for the use of it. Treat the situation like Saeco treats George Foreman? The Sioux don't make UND successful but we do want have their name on our school's merchandise that sells and makes a good chunk of cashola. This is the only reason I could see offering a cut of cash via merchandise to the Sioux Tribes. It is their name, maybe they should be able to charge for it's use?

Just a thought.

I've thought of that, too, but it seems to me that the only way it could work is if both tribes signed legally binding contracts for a period of years (I'd say 10, minimum). That way, it wouldn't be something that the next change in tribal government could yank away at a whim without being dragged into court and forced to pay damages for breach of contract. With any luck, one of the legal experts will weigh in and let us know if anything like this is wise or even possible.

[The Sicatoka]

I think too many people are equating the tribal governments with the native American people. I haven't found that I have a lot of respect nor am I impressed with tribal government that I am familar with, nor for that matter a number of those in leadership postions within the tribes.

As far as the Native American people, they are like people anywhere else. Those that struggle with poverty and the socio-economic problems inherrent on the rez tend to fall into the welfare trap of dependence on others and the associated ills of drug and alcohol abuse and crime. That is not consistent with the American Indian Culture but you will find similarities in all races dependent on others. They tend to be raised by disfunctional families with leaders who lack the skills, experience and leadership qualities to lead their people to a better life. It is easier to blame whatever their problems are on someone else.

You will find that those who take the opportunities to better themselves, take pride in their accomplishments and want their own families to grow up to be responsible citizens and have the opportunity to succeed. There are a lot of examples and many of those who succeed are the least patient with those who remain engulfed in the chains and problems associated with those unfortunate souls who don't believe life can be better.

As I have stated before, it is time for UND to move on but still be willing to consider any request by our states American Indians who wish to re-establish a connection with the people of the State of North Dakota through the use of the Fighting Sioux name at UND. If no tribes come foreword, we should be smart enough to get the message. It is not worth negotiating. I would not be willing to negotiate our honor and dignity to those who have been so insulting and closed minded to what our culture thought was quite an honor to offer them. Their elders and ancestors understood and approved. You don't pay someone to let you honor them.

You nailed it.

[Fetch]

QUOTE (Fetch @ Oct 30 2007, 07:23 PM) *

Do tribes have initiated measures - where they can all vote on things ?

I don't see that as being our business or our problem.

Well if the Tribal Leadership is not representing their Tribes (or even asking them how they feel) & many say the majority are not against us using the name & many more not trusting the future leaderships that may recind the use of the name (if we ever got it) I see asking the people & not the leaders (which get into office by being radical on many issues ) because apathy has to be even worse on reservations then off - then I think it is a vital question

Because I don't think Tribal Leaders will ever give us permission - But maybe the people (majority) will

EDIT: I also think the delegation that goes to visit the tribal councils needs to be very clear that UND neither condones nor tolerates racism. They could also discuss the plans to make certain that the nickname and logo are used in a dignified and respectful manner.

This sounds like the Earl Striden & most others plan to save the name & it has not worked with leadership - But I think it may have to the People

[PCM]

Well if the Tribal Leadership is not representing their Tribes (or even asking them how they feel) & many say the majority are not against us using the name & many more not trusting the future leaderships that may recind the use of the name (if we ever got it) I see asking the people & not the leaders (which get into office by being radical on many issues ) because apathy has to be even worse on reservations then off - then I think it is a vital question

Becasue I don't think Tribal Leaders will ever give us permission - But maybe the people will

I understand your point. If large groups of voters on the reservations are upset and the tribal council members believe there will be negative political reprecussions for opposing the Fighting Sioux nickname, then they will likely do what's needed to satisfy the voters or risk losing power. But if most voters are either apathetic about the issue or agree with the tribal leaders' opposition to the nickname, then there's nothing we can do to change that.

[PCM]

This sounds like the Earl Striden & most others plan to save the name & it has not worked with leadership - But I think it may have to the People

Attempting an end-run around the elected tribal government will only make matters worse. Mark my words.

[Fetch]

Thats why I say take the campaign to the people & not the leadership - I truely believe alot of folks on reservations are proud of the name & logo & I totally agree they should be compensated for it - Up front & legit - not thru smoke & mirrors & just a few people

Hey I believe people on Reservations are even way more skeptical & burn't out (cynical) on politics & leaders than we are

[dagies]

The only situation I could see UND having a financial agreement with the Sioux would be if we would look at the situation like the George Foreman Grill. George Foreman didn't make the grill or have anything to do with it but his name made it successful. He gets paid because his name is on it.

Since Sioux Tribes still exist and kinda own their name, maybe UND should give them some cash for the use of it. Treat the situation like Saeco treats George Foreman? The Sioux don't make UND successful but we do want have their name on our school's merchandise that sells and makes a good chunk of cashola. This is the only reason I could see offering a cut of cash via merchandise to the Sioux Tribes. It is their name, maybe they should be able to charge for it's use?

Just a thought.

I've thought the same thing. I don't see financial compensation as blackmail, etc. If someone uses your photo for the cover of a magazine, you get paid. Therefore, I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of if UND works out financial compensation of some sort.

I do believe there are better ways to benefit the tribes, but I guess it is up to them to decide what, if anything, they would want.

The idea of not expecting payment for being honored is also an interesting argument. I can see both sides to this.

[Goon]

I've thought the same thing. I don't see financial compensation as blackmail, etc. If someone uses your photo for the cover of a magazine, you get paid. Therefore, I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of if UND works out financial compensation of some sort.

I do believe there are better ways to benefit the tribes, but I guess it is up to them to decide what, if anything, they would want.

The idea of not expecting payment for being honored is also an interesting argument. I can see both sides to this.

The anit-name people would look at it as strong arming the Sioux into keeping the name...

[PCM]

Thats why I say take the campaign to the people & not the leadership - I truely believe alot of folks on reservations are proud of the name & logo...

Then they need to stand up, be counted and make their voices heard. We can't do that for them.

[PCM]

The anit-name people would look at it as strong arming the Sioux into keeping the name...

So what? If the tribal governments are happy with the arragement, do you think they'll give the anti-nickname crowd the time of day?

[Fetch]

We do it all the time (& have thru out History) at all levels of everything

Some call it Public Relations or Diplomacy (or Intelligence) something we lack as a Gov. & Society today

If at this stage of the game - If we don't have any "Friends" on Reservations we could work with - NO WONDER we are getting what we deserve

[PCM]

I've thought the same thing. I don't see financial compensation as blackmail, etc. If someone uses your photo for the cover of a magazine, you get paid. Therefore, I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of if UND works out financial compensation of some sort.

So the Vikings should be paying me royalties because my great grandparents were Swedish? The Fighting Irish owe me some money, too.

[dagies]

So what? If the tribal governments are happy with the arragement, do you think they'll give the anti-nickname crowd the time of day?

Exactly. Like we should give a rat's ass what anyone else thinks if the tribes are happy? It's what they've told us to do all along. Just because the tribes wouldn't end up validating their position is no reason for us to care.

It's one reason why I'd like to see UND be aggressive in securing that approval. Stick it to all of the NCAA'ers, and in the meantime increase the positive for the tribes, and ultimately UND by putting the issue to rest. Naturally, we can't be living year to year, so we're going to need to see some sort of long-term arrangement.

[dagies]

So the Vikings should be paying me royalties because my great grandparents were Swedish? The Fighting Irish owe me some money, too.

One thing I've learned in my line of work is that you never get what you don't ask for....

[PCM]

We do it all the time (& have thru out History) at all levels of everything

Such as...?