Local Boy Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Does the 508K ytd loss include the 225K transfer? Does anybody know the approximate tax subsidy that the Alerus will receive this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 Tu-Uyen Tran has a piece in his City Beat blog on the financial dealings of the Alerus. Since it's pretty clear that the Alerus Center loses money and has to be bailed out* by the city, the only excuse for that is economic impact. So far, the only people defending the economic impact are city officials at the Alerus Center commission and at City Hall, which isn't really that effective of a defense because it's a city-owned facility after all. This is why it's important for the business community to weigh in. It has the most to gain from any economic impact and the most to lose from sales taxes that are too high; 43 percent of the sales tax is dedicated to just paying the debt on the building! Without some strong reaction from businesses, I think economic impact will eventually fade as a viable argument. No matter its technical merit -- it's being calculated by a UND economist, someone actually trained to do this as opposed to anonymous geniuses on the blog -- truth in politics is frequently determined by who argues for it and how many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Tu-Uyen Tran has a piece in his City Beat blog on the financial dealings of the Alerus. I am a small business owner, and while the commission has definitely made some mistakes, I have always supported the Alerus. I didn't vote for it with the idea that the building itself needed to make a profit in order to justify its existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Local Boy Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Weigh in on the economic impact issue? Okay.. The Alerus Commission and VenuWorks hope for two major concert events a year. Can you believe it? Two. It's my strong opinion that they are not playing for economic impact; they are playing for a couple "I told you so" moments. AND, by the way, these dates are fully subsidized events. Meaning, taxpayers relieve the promoter of ALL risk on the dates. So, what we have are complete non-reality events. History and numbers don't lie; in the past few years The Alerus has subsidized some of the largest grossing, top drawing tours working. These dates have lost $100,000 to $350,000 per show. No anymous or drama here. The data points to simply a nonecononical, dead end business plan. Small business operators know that success comes from a day in, day out daily grind. The Alerus playing for these media-hyped "I told you so" events is completely unacceptable. See my prior post on an alternative focus for the property. Know what? I can even expound on that post. Belittleing "naysayers" and calling skeptics with well thought out, experienced opinions on the property "morons" is unacceptable. Thank you to The grand Forks Herald for finally covering the problems with The Alerus. Grand Forks deserves much better. Riding a continuing plan of failure into the dirt operating a publicly owned facility is wrong. If the commission wants to do this. Again, a publicly owned facility is not the place for it. "Cha, cha, cha, changes...." BTW, The Alerus is supposed to be a rental facitiy; not involved in the risk on the dates. The subsidies stem from desperation. Tertiary markets are not supposed to be in this game. Want to see a major concert event? It's simple; drive to Mpls-St. Paul, Wpg, or Fargo. A show with a $1,000,000 gross should pay the facility $80,000-$100,000 in rent per date. PLUS, the venue retains all revenues from concessions, parking, etc. Ugly situation in deed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redarmy Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 This article in today's GF Herald. Can you say illegal meeting Kurt Kreun. He is a crook. He was a crook when he lived in EGF and was a member of the school board. Maybe not a crook, but one of the good old boys. http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/140134 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdahl Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Task force seeks community consensus on Alerus Center Criticism of Grand Forks’ Alerus Center has reached such a level that members of a City Council task force say they want to settle once and for all some of the toughest questions about the city-owned building.These are questions such as: Is it OK for the facility to lose some money on major events if the economic impact is big enough? Does the way the city measures that impact make sense? How much risk should the city take in choosing the major events? Several members of the 13-member task force, which met Thursday for the first time, said the $80 million building — the city’s largest investment — can’t be expected to succeed if the community is divided on these questions. “If you’re running a business … and you have constant controversies, you can’t run your business; you can’t do it,” said Council President Hal Gershman, one of the task force’s chairmen. “You can’t do your job if someone keeps looking over your shoulders,” said Julie Rygg, executive director of the Convention and Visitors Bureau. “That building’s not going anywhere, and if we keep fighting about it, we’ll lose good people.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Task force seeks community consensus on Alerus Center If they want a consensus, they need to open and honest in the future. Packing a committee with people responsible for the unacceptable status quo isn't the way to go about taking care the problem. For example these guys seem to think that because the old civic auditorium cost $250,000 to run it's ok to lose money at the Alerus. When you look at it, the Alerus subsidies in 2008 totaled about 8 million dollars of subsidies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMeNow Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 If they want a consensus, they need to open and honest in the future. If you're trying make a point - try to construct a sentence that actually makes SENSE! not "they need to open and honest in the future" - I'm amazed you actually spelled CONSENSUS right...right? (You're a douche!) Packing a committee with people responsible for the unacceptable status quo isn't the way to go about taking care the problem. On this we agree! GF's biggest problem is that they think every problem needs to appoint a committee to address it. bull$%!#! WE CONSTANTLY do this and it doesn't settle anything...it wasn't that long ago our city council had 14 Members - THAT'S INSANE! They couldn't agree on anything and this solution won't either but for some portion of GF's population - a committee makes them feel better. Thankfully they're old and will eventually die - except for Marilyn H. who I want to live forever because she's actually POSITIVE about living in GF unlike a lot of people like "the whistler" Don't like it? MOVE!!!! Or try to get on one of these giant city committees For example these guys seem to think that because the old civic auditorium cost $250,000 to run it's ok to lose money at the Alerus. When you look at it, the Alerus subsidies in 2008 totaled about 8 million dollars of subsidies. NOW you just being STUPID...8 MILLION DOLLARS? WHAT??? We lost money on the Old Civic because it was THERE! (and could only attract crowds of about 2000 people in a hideous environment for ANY event.)_ Even the worst attended events at the Alerus are still a net gain for the city when you calculate the money people spent coming to town and shopping. Our sales tax totals have been consistently on the rise every single year and that's the PRIMARY Source for paying for the Al. Stop crying like losses at the Alerus are costing you money - THEY ARE NOT! If anything - it's only taking us slightly longer to pay off the building which, at last check, we were still AHEAD of schedule on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Local Boy Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 SiouxMeNow, $8M is the total of annual operating losses and debt service (douche). You need to understand the big picture that is the white elephant.... The Alerus has three primary missions... Arena concert events. Regional conventions/banquets. Sioux football. Arena concerts simply DO NOT happen unless TAXPAYERS FULLY subsidize and underwrite ALL risk, removing the risk from the promoter. Recently, it's been revealed that the TOP GROSSING/MOST SUCCESSFUL tours in America lose from 100K-325K per show in Grand Forks. In case you're confused, that's a bad thing. The convention side was structured to FULLY ATTACK the private sector from DAY ONE. Now, all players that were in the market and serviced the banquet sector in Grand Forks are all but GONE. That is also a bad thing. Sioux football is a good thing for two reasons... The added seating in The Alerus increases the gross potential that can be realized per game, if the demand is there. The weather climate in Grand Forks is unfavorable in the late fall and early winter for outdoor football and most people would agree; I speculate. Of course, this will all change if UND develops their own football venue. Hey, sorry if I left out a word, or two, it happens. People are human. Can you refute my points? Or would you prefer to attack my grammar? Oh, BTW...the old Civic was structured for EXISTING private sector businesses to INCREASE their biz by bringing events to the venue. This structure accomplished two great missions...EXISTING businesses were able to service clients and increase revenues when they were booked or the group was too large for their property. Also, this structure was FANTASTIC for one very simple reason...ALL private sector banquet operations basically became sales agents for the Civic without the Civic carrying the overhead (overhead means fixed-costs). Feel smarter? Have a great day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Let'sGoHawks! Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 To the Alerus naysayers, what needs to be done to fix things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 To the Alerus naysayers, what needs to be done to fix things? Local Boy provides his "fix" thoughts here ..... http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?s=&...st&p=409504 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Local Boy Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 LetsGoSioux!, See my post in this thread on 10/13. I'd be interested to hear your feedback. Why the term "naysayer"? The Whistler and I are evaluating The Alerus from a postion of neutrality. SiouxMeNow, for example, is simply an advocate starting with a conclusion and attempting to connect the dots favorable for the "supporters". No naysayer here. I hope my posts stand on their own. I hope you'll agree, I'm an individual offering constructive, viable solutions. The Alerus is here with 9 years of market data. Let's tweak the property to fit the market. Operating the facility as if it exists in a larger market is a proven loser. The major problem with my prior sentence is convincing the few "community leaders" who set up the structure of The Alerus to admit they've failed the community and changes need to be made. That will be the biggest challenge, in my opinion, for the newly formed task force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Local Boy Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Oh...I'd like to see this thread continue. Believe it, or not, this crap is probably the most valuable resource for the newly formed task force. Also, it would be a shame for a "naysayer" to be the smartest person in the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 UND should add mens lacrosse to add event dates to Alerus Center in the spring. Our Canadian friends would love it too. The preceding message was brought to you so you all could see GeauxSioux post a smilie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 UND should add mens lacrosse to add event dates to Alerus Center in the spring. Our Canadian friends would love it too. The preceding message was brought to you so you all could see GeauxSioux post a smilie. Actually, it is more like ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bincitysioux Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Feel free to continue the discussion without the personal attacks and name-calling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 If you're trying make a point - try to construct a sentence that actually makes SENSE! not "they need to open and honest in the future" - I'm amazed you actually spelled CONSENSUS right...right? (You're a douche!) The city lost a lot of money in the event fund last year. The newspaper reported a loss of $720,000. The Alerus Commission bought an ad saying they lost $680,000. This fall they're saying they lost $500,000. Last spring the paper reported a loss of $252,000 on the Neil Diamond Concert. Now they're saying it was $370,000. Other concerts have swung from the negative to positive side of the ledger but they haven't released any data. I put an open records request for all of the events they lost money on. Hyman sent me the Diamond concert figures. I haven't had time to do another request. Hyman has lied to us in records requests. Are you saying that they've been open and honest or are you saying they don't need to be when you dispute my statement? To be open and honest I don't expect anything but insults from the Alerus gang anymore. NOW you just being STUPID...8 MILLION DOLLARS? WHAT??? Last year the Alerus lost $720,000 on the event fund. That was covered by the city. The hospitality tax cost the public about $380,000. The rest of the eight million is the 3/4 percent sales tax. The bond payment fund surplus has been spent 100% on further projects at the Alerus. Anyone claiming that the Alerus isn't costing us that much is.....I'm searching for the word. The civic auditorium cost us $250,000 I've heard. That's it. The Alerus is costing us $8 million. Suppose you had a car that was costing you $200/month for repairs. Because of that you decide it's better to buy a brand new car. The new car is great but you have a payment of $500/month. Well you're ok with that but if it started breaking down every month and the dealer told you it's ok because it's not costing as much to repair as the old car you wouldn't buy it for a moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 LetsGoSioux!, Why the term "naysayer"? The Whistler and I are evaluating The Alerus from a postion of neutrality. SiouxMeNow, for example, is simply an advocate starting with a conclusion and attempting to connect the dots favorable for the "supporters". I hardly would claim to be neutral on the matter. I claim to be the #1 Alerus critic. I think perhaps Terry Bjerke would not agree with that. That's ok I have him at #2 on my list and I think he's got me in the same on his. However I endeavor to be fair and present my arguments full of facts rather than insults. It's not that I don't enjoy fleeing poo, but I don't think you change many minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMeNow Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I'd like you to explain your From: RALPH ENGELSTAD ARENA sig line....at first blush - it would SEEM like a slight conflict of interest! OH - and please enlighten us as to what we should do with the Alerus? (BITCHING is really easy and Terry "nutjob" Bjerke references do NOT help your arguement! - SERIOUSLY! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxperseven Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I hardly would claim to be neutral on the matter. I claim to be the #1 Alerus critic. I think perhaps Terry Bjerke would not agree with that. That's ok I have him at #2 on my list and I think he's got me in the same on his. However I endeavor to be fair and present my arguments full of facts rather than insults. It's not that I don't enjoy fleeing poo, but I don't think you change many minds. I'm actually curious who is "The Whistler"?? Sounds like a higher up somewhere. One thing to keep in mind is that it's built and we can't change that. The Alerus would not be here right now if everybody would have known that Ralph was building the Taj Mahal here in GF and that's a fact. But lets be honest about teh numbers we're given as taxpayers. And now another commission?? And what the heck is with the 6M in renovations to the outside....it's what they built with the money they were given originally. Typical government. Just keep voting till it gets past then spend excess money on what you wanted in the first place. Why not take the excess and pay down the debt?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I'd like you to explain your From: RALPH ENGELSTAD ARENA sig line....at first blush - it would SEEM like a slight conflict of interest! OH - and please enlighten us as to what we should do with the Alerus? (BITCHING is really easy and Terry "nutjob" Bjerke references do NOT help your arguement! - SERIOUSLY! ) SERIOUSLY, we get it... You love the Alerus. The fact remains that it's bleeding money and it's a drain on the city budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 To the Alerus naysayers, what needs to be done to fix things? Seriously I would recommend a bulldozer or a box of Dynamite. Okay maybe not but the City needs to run it so it's not costing the tax payers of Grand Forks $275,000-$1,000,000.00 every year. The city needs to be more transparent and stop hiding the actual cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Local Boy Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 SiouxMeNow!, I've provided operation alternatives for The Alerus Center. Do you have any alternatives? Here are the facts... The arena side of the center cannot present a show without a 100% guarantee incentive from taxpayers. The convention side was structured from day one to attack the private sector. Now, any gains that are realized by the convention side, come at the expense of privately owned local businesses. Are you fine with these facts? I'm sure you'll agree, it's time for change. What do you propose? Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choyt3 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Maybe they could mothball it, winterize it, and only have it open for UND football games, charging $200 per ticket (If that's enough???) so they could break even at least on those days. Short of that, what are some real solutions? Anyone? Is this thing on?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Local Boy Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Have you checked out my alternatives? (they're brilliant ) I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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