DI Conference Speculation

[MplsBison]

Any structure with the name or logo in a "non-consumable" condition (i.e. architectural).

Such as...?

[The Sicatoka]

I'm not the facilities manager at UND. But I'd guess you'd find conditions very difficult to change architecturally in old Memorial, Hyslop, The Ralph, The Betty, and other places used by Athletics.

[82SiouxGuy]

Good question.

How about another that's never been answered:

What is the total cost of a moniker change (turf, courts, facilities changes, uniforms, gear, lapel pins for "suits", and whatever else)?

You have to weight everything together, not just pieces that suit a point of view.

The cost of changing a name on the turf at the Alerus Center would probably be rather minor, and I believe that a replacement for that turf is already in discussion anyway because of its age. I don't know what other turf would need to be changed. Changing the name on basketball courts is again a minor cost, and probably would be done as part of regular maintenance. For instance, they have to resurface wood courts on a regular basis. I have no idea what facilities changes you are talking about other than the needed changes at the Ralph that have been discussed many times. Most of those would also be done as part of regular maintenance and remodeling. And many items would be left as is as part of the history and structure of the buildings. The only other potential facilities changes might be some signing at other buildings.

You may not have noticed, but the teams get new uniforms and new gear on a regular basis. There is no additional cost to get new equipment with a different name, they don't charge less because of the Fighting Sioux name. Not really much of a long term cost there. The same with lapel pins or whatever other stuff you want to talk about. The only cost would be the unused items they currently have in stock, which they could probably sell and make a profit on before any official change takes place.

There would definitely be a cost to change the name. But most of it has been well defined either through the settlement or through other discussion. Most of what you are throwing out there are costs that the University will have anyway in the next 3 to 5 years as a cost of doing business whether they change the name or not. The only cost that is going to be hard to define is the loss of alumni support. Some will happen, but no one knows how much will happen with a change or how much of that may or may not come back eventually.

[82SiouxGuy]

Maybe cause its irrelevant.

About as irrelevant as me saying: it doesn't matter cause, news flash, UND is already in a conference. Why do they need to move to a different one. I understand its shortcoming, but nothing that can't be changed in the years to come. Add some more members, wait a few years, and BAM!

You happy I answered your question. Let me guess its not the "answer" you wanted?

You need conferences UND could join? Couldnt' you look that up yourself? Or is there some criteria you need to qualify for your answer? Do they have to be close to the Dakotas? Have to be "hiring?" Big Sky? Missouri Valley? Ohio Valley Conference?

There's 14 FCS conferences. Maybe you could pick some too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_I#Conferences_2

I'm happy you tried, but you really didn't provide an answer. Why do they need a different conference? Maybe because it isn't an autobid conference. Unless the requirements are changed dramatically, it can't become an autobid conference for at least 10 years (I would have to go back and look at the requirements, but I believe that under the present rules the conference would have to exist as a conference with a certain number of members staying together the whole time for 13 years before it can become an autobid). And it probably won't ever survive long enough to be an autobid conference. It is a temporary home for schools that are looking for something more long term. Plus, it has teams all over the United States. Travel costs are huge for the University. A conference such as the Summit or the Big Sky would limit travel a great deal, which would limit or at least contain some of the travel costs.

I am looking for a legitimate answer to which autobid conference would be a possible fit for UND Athletics. If you haven't paid attention to the discussion earlier, we have looked it up before and gone over just about every possibility. Here are a few of the answers. First, we throw out all of the FBS conferences because none of them has shown any interest in adding a brand new Division I school. That means no Big 10, no Big 12, no WAC, no Mountain West, etc. Besides, UND would have to get a new football stadium and dramatically increase football attendance to even qualify for FBS. Second, the conference has to make some geographic sense. None of the East Coast conferences or Southern conference or something like that are going to add a single school on the Northern Plains. Travel costs are too great and there is no connection to the existing schools. So yeah, the conference needs to be at least somewhat close to the Dakotas. That eliminates the Big South, the Colonial, the Ivy League, the Mid-Eastern, the Northeast, the Patriot, the Pioneer, the Southland, the Southern and the Southwestern. What are left that are even possible? The Big Sky, the Summit, the Ohio Valley and the Missouri Valley. The Ohio Valley and the Missouri Valley are both questionable on the geographic basis alone, but they are also both considered "better" conferences than the Summit or Big Sky, at least in basketball. It is very doubtful that they would even consider adding a brand new Division I school that is all alone on the Northern Plains. UND is more than 500 miles from the closest school in either the Ohio or Missouri Valley conferences. Neither one is probably a very legitimate possibility for UND at this time.

That leaves 2 possibilities, the Summit and the Big Sky. The Big Sky has already said they aren't interested in adding schools this far east. They had the opportunity to add NDSU and SDSU and said we don't want schools in the Central time zone. Again, UND is more than 500 miles from the closest school in the Big Sky. And that is if they were looking at adding schools, which isn't currently in the works and probably won't be unless the Montana schools leave to move up. The chances of getting into the Big Sky are almost nil. That leaves the Summit. They currently have 10 teams (with USD replacing Centenary as the 10th) but they are interested in adding 2 more to prepare for potential changes in the future. UND isn't the only school out there looking for a home. All of the other members of the Great West would jump at a chance to join the Summit. And there are schools looking at moving up after the moratorium that would also be interested. UND is the best fit for the Summit. It is a good fit academically. It is an adequate fit geographically, although schools on the other sides of the conference might question that. UND has a relationship and a history with several of the other schools in the Summit. But if the Summit wants to move forward now and get their plans in place, they could easily leave UND out of the plans and select other schools. That would leave UND in limbo for an undetermined length of time. And that uncertainty is what is helping drive the potential change in time lines. UND would have a very difficult time surviving as an independent, or even as a member of the Great West, for any length of time. And by that I mean another 5 or more years which is definitely possible if they don't get into the Summit during the next couple of years. The wildcard is the potential shakeup of conferences that might happen after the moratorium on change ends in a couple of years. But that uncertainty is not good for a vulnerable program like a brand new Division I UND.

So I've done the homework. I don't see a lot of options. Where else do you thing UND Athletics could find a legitimate home in an autobid conference at the Division I level?

[MplsBison]

I'm not the facilities manager at UND. But I'd guess you'd find conditions very difficult to change architecturally in old Memorial, Hyslop, The Ralph, The Betty, and other places used by Athletics.

See 82's post.

There isn't really any other costs are aren't being considered. But we'll be happy to consider any specific examples you want to discuss.

[MplsBison]

So those changes won't have "trickle down" effect on aspirational leagues for current Summit teams?

You're not that naive.

Propose a scenario! Be specific!

It's waaaaay too easy to sit back and say it will happen.

Who do you think is going where? Why is it so obvious that a Big Ten or Pac10 expansion or a Big East split will ultimately cause current Summit members to go elsewhere?

[Cratter]

Why do they need a different conference? Maybe because it isn't an autobid conference. Unless the requirements are changed dramatically, it can't become an autobid conference for at least 10 years. And it probably won't ever survive long enough to be an autobid conference. It is a temporary home for schools that are looking for something more long term.

Like I said I realized the shortcoming of the Great West. But who cares its only 13 years. Not a big deal in the long run. Be happy UND is currently in a conference and don't be so eager to jump ship. And yes its all over the US but so is the Summit. It might currently be home for teams looking otherwise but who are you to say it will always be that way. That is very naive on your part.

The Big Sky, the Summit, the Ohio Valley and the Missouri Valley. The Ohio Valley and the Missouri Valley are both questionable on the geographic basis alone, but they are also both considered "better" conferences than the Summit or Big Sky, at least in basketball. It is very doubtful that they would even consider adding a brand new Division I school that is all alone on the Northern Plains.

Your only arguement is you don't think they would add UND based on Location? You, my friend, have a weak argument. You want to quit the race before it starts? As I mentioned earlier the Summit stretches from North Dakota to Louisiana, Utah to Michigan. That sir is not helping "contain travel costs."

That leaves 2 possibilities, the Summit and the Big Sky. The Big Sky has already said they aren't interested in adding schools this far east. They had the opportunity to add NDSU and SDSU and said we don't want schools in the Central time zone. Again, UND is more than 500 miles from the closest school in the Big Sky. And that is if they were looking at adding schools, which isn't currently in the works and probably won't be unless the Montana schools leave to move up. The chances of getting into the Big Sky are almost nil.

That's what people are saying. Things change. Just cause what's true today doesn't make it true tomorrow. (The shakeup is coming!) The Summit League would love to add UND. The conference is desperately trying to find stability. It's added four teams in less than five years!

Let me put it in terms you might understand. The WCHA wasn't looking to expand when they added BSU but they did.

Where else do you thing UND Athletics could find a legitimate home in an autobid conference at the Division I level?

Wow you really did throw out alot of criteria!.....Oh I get it now! Your real question is what do you think the "best" conference for UND to get into right now is with an autobid? Oh that's easy. Should have said so at first.

That would be the conference that our Dakota Peers are in: and that would be the Summit League. Everyone knows that. People knew that before any of this was ever started happening: Best Possible UND Conference

The point of this all is some people are being very short sighted. 5, heck ten years means little to a 100+ year old university. Conferences will come calling again the Summit would love to have UND on its ship.

But to act like the sky is falling; like its now or never; do or die.....is preposterous! Sit back. Take a deep breathe and realize if UND doesn't get into the Summit League this year, its not the end of the world!

[FargoBison]

In my mind the only change that could create Summit League issues would be a Big East split. That is something that could maybe trickle down into the Horizon and MVC if Midwest private schools decide to create their own league. The Big 10 will only have a major effect if they go crazy and move to 14 or 16. The Pac 10 will greatly shake things up out west, but if SUU leaves the league would probably be happy to see them go.

That said, UND is in a bad situation, you are very isolated and need a travel partner. They are all in the Summit, so if you wanted to move into another conference you would probably need to get one to come along with you. Maybe something like that happens, maybe the WAC gets so raided that Montana schools enter the league along with the North Dakota schools. That may sound far fetched, but the potential is out there for a considerable amount of movement.

[MplsBison]

Like I said I realized the shortcoming of the Great West. But who cares its only 13 years. Not a big deal in the long run. Be happy UND is currently in a conference and don't be so eager to jump ship. And yes its all over the US but so is the Summit. It might currently be home for teams looking otherwise but who are you to say it will always be that way. That is very naive on your part.

Your only arguement is you don't think they would add UND based on Location? You, my friend, have a weak argument. You want to quit the race before it starts? As I mentioned earlier the Summit stretches from North Dakota to Louisiana, Utah to Michigan. That sir is not helping "contain travel costs."

That's what people are saying. Things change. Just cause what's true today doesn't make it true tomorrow. (The shakeup is coming!) The Summit League would love to add UND. The conference is desperately trying to find stability. It's added four teams in less than five years!

Let me put it in terms you might understand. The WCHA wasn't looking to expand when they added BSU but they did.

Wow you really did throw out alot of criteria!.....Oh I get it now! Your real question is what do you think the "best" conference for UND to get into right now is with an autobid? Oh that's easy. Should have said so at first.

That would be the conference that our Dakota Peers are in: and that would be the Summit League. Everyone knows that. People knew that before any of this was ever started happening: Best Possible UND Conference

The point of this all is some people are being very short sighted. 5, heck ten years means little to a 100+ year old university. Conferences will come calling again the Summit would love to have UND on its ship.

But to act like the sky is falling; like its now or never; do or die.....is preposterous! Sit back. Take a deep breathe and realize if UND doesn't get into the Summit League this year, its not the end of the world!

You're not wrong, probably in 5 years and certainly in 10 years things will be different and UND will be able to find a conference with an automatic birth to MBB tournament in that amount of time.

But the idea that it's "acceptable" to make the rest of the sports wait another 5-10 years (on top of the 4 years of no postseason in the transition) to have a legitimate chance at a postseason tournament is the only thing I find preposterous.

No, of course it's not acceptable. It's not just not acceptable, it's pathetic, it's childish and it's selfish.

[Shawn-O]

Good question.

How about another that's never been answered:

What is the total cost of a moniker change (turf, courts, facilities changes, uniforms, gear, lapel pins for "suits", and whatever else)?

You have to weight everything together, not just pieces that suit a point of view.

For the record, this has dragged out long enough where I think it now needs to play out to the original November date. If that means another year of Independent/Great West status, I say so be it. But some here need to come to grips with the fact that November may come, with no Standing Rock resolution.

[Shawn-O]

The point of this all is some people are being very short sighted. 5, heck ten years means little to a 100+ year old university. Conferences will come calling again the Summit would love to have UND on its ship.

To the people at UND that are accountable for things like wins, losses, athletic budgets, alumni donations, enrollment, and general growth of the university I'd say that five years means a whole hell of a lot. I do agree with you in that I now think the Summit will still be there in December 2010 after this is allowed to play out one way or the other.

[The Sicatoka]

Why are Bison fans so worried about UND getting into the Summit?

Shouldn't NDSU fans be wanting UND to stay in DI purgatory (independent/Great West)?

Or do NDSU, SDSU, and soon USD, want UND in the conference to help fill buildings with visiting fans?

[The Sicatoka]

For the record, this has dragged out long enough where I think it now needs to play out to the original November date. If that means another year of Independent/Great West status, I say so be it. But some here need to come to grips with the fact that November may come, with no Standing Rock resolution.

Dude, that's exactly where I'm at.

Nov 2010 brings closure, one way or another.

[The Sicatoka]

Propose a scenario! Be specific!

In my mind the only change that could create Summit League issues would be a Big East split. That is something that could maybe trickle down into the Horizon and MVC if Midwest private schools decide to create their own league. The Big 10 will only have a major effect if they go crazy and move to 14 or 16. The Pac 10 will greatly shake things up out west, but if SUU leaves the league would probably be happy to see them go.

That said, UND is in a bad situation, you are very isolated and need a travel partner. They are all in the Summit, so if you wanted to move into another conference you would probably need to get one to come along with you. Maybe something like that happens, maybe the WAC gets so raided that Montana schools enter the league along with the North Dakota schools. That may sound far fetched, but the potential is out there for a considerable amount of movement.

I guess I didn't have to. A Bison fan laid out a couple.

[82SiouxGuy]

Like I said I realized the shortcoming of the Great West. But who cares its only 13 years. Not a big deal in the long run. Be happy UND is currently in a conference and don't be so eager to jump ship. And yes its all over the US but so is the Summit. It might currently be home for teams looking otherwise but who are you to say it will always be that way. That is very naive on your part.

Your only arguement is you don't think they would add UND based on Location? You, my friend, have a weak argument. You want to quit the race before it starts? As I mentioned earlier the Summit stretches from North Dakota to Louisiana, Utah to Michigan. That sir is not helping "contain travel costs."

That's what people are saying. Things change. Just cause what's true today doesn't make it true tomorrow. (The shakeup is coming!) The Summit League would love to add UND. The conference is desperately trying to find stability. It's added four teams in less than five years!

Let me put it in terms you might understand. The WCHA wasn't looking to expand when they added BSU but they did.

Wow you really did throw out alot of criteria!.....Oh I get it now! Your real question is what do you think the "best" conference for UND to get into right now is with an autobid? Oh that's easy. Should have said so at first.

That would be the conference that our Dakota Peers are in: and that would be the Summit League. Everyone knows that. People knew that before any of this was ever started happening: Best Possible UND Conference

The point of this all is some people are being very short sighted. 5, heck ten years means little to a 100+ year old university. Conferences will come calling again the Summit would love to have UND on its ship.

But to act like the sky is falling; like its now or never; do or die.....is preposterous! Sit back. Take a deep breathe and realize if UND doesn't get into the Summit League this year, its not the end of the world!

UND can't wait 10 years to get into an autobid conference, or even 5 years. It would be financial suicide. It would badly damage most if not all of the sports other than football and basketball. Most University Presidents, Athletic Directors and coaches don't last 10 years in their positions under normal circumstances. The financial pressures of sitting in limbo for 10 years would cause a great deal of turnover in most areas of the administration and the athletic department. No one is going to allow that to happen.

As far as comparing travel between the Great West and the Summit. First, the Louisiana school will be gone before UND ever gets into the conference. Southern Utah is an outlier, but is also a potential school to leave the conference since they would love to get into the Big Sky. As it currently sits, the Summit has a row of schools basically from Fargo to Tulsa plus Southern Utah in the west and another grouping in Indiana, Illinois area with a school in Detroit. They are trying to add schools so that they can have 2 divisions. You would play more games against your division and fewer against the other division. So a lot of competition could go back to bus travel with trips to Fargo, Brookings, Vermillion and Kansas City.

In the Great West there will be no bus trips once USD switches. The closest school is Chicago State, which is also going to try to get into the Summit. Then you have schools in New Jersey and Texas and Utah. The Utah school is trying desperately to get into either the Summit or the Big Sky. So far the Summit won't even return their phone calls. But the Big Sky might be willing to look at them along with Southern Utah if the Montana schools decide to move up. If Chicago State and UVU both get other conferences the Great West would be UND, a school in New Jersey and 2 schools in Texas. That sounds like a great backbone to build a conference on don't you think?

If they can get some kind of assurance that the opportunity to join the Summit will be available at the end of 2010, both the SBoHE and the administration would be foolish to not let the issue play out. But if they get good information that the Summit is going to make their decisions during the next 4 months and announce those additional schools before July 1 then the SBoHE and the administration are going to have to do what is in the best interest of the school for financial reasons and for stability.

[star2city]

As far as comparing travel between the Great West and the Summit. First, the Louisiana school will be gone before UND ever gets into the conference. Southern Utah is an outlier, but is also a potential school to leave the conference since they would love to get into the Big Sky. As it currently sits, the Summit has a row of schools basically from Fargo to Tulsa plus Southern Utah in the west and another grouping in Indiana, Illinois area with a school in Detroit. They are trying to add schools so that they can have 2 divisions. You would play more games against your division and fewer against the other division. So a lot of competition could go back to bus travel with trips to Fargo, Brookings, Vermillion and Kansas City.

...

If they can get some kind of assurance that the opportunity to join the Summit will be available at the end of 2010, both the SBoHE and the administration would be foolish to not let the issue play out. But if they get good information that the Summit is going to make their decisions during the next 4 months and announce those additional schools before July 1 then the SBoHE and the administration are going to have to do what is in the best interest of the school for financial reasons and for stability.

As you stated, the Summit is building an I-29 division. So why would they not have interest in UND beyond November when UND is basically the only school that fits that criteria?

I'll state again: UND has a better TV contract than basically the entire Summit League. Who has leverage here that wasn't in place before the Summit nickname proclamation? UND.

The Summit League is like a potential employer telling a prospective employee to divorce an estranged wife as an employment demand, when the employee still has hopes of saving the marriage. Not Kosher.

[MplsBison]

As you stated, the Summit is building an I-29 division. So why would they not have interest in UND beyond November when UND is basically the only school that fits that criteria?

I'll state again: UND has a better TV contract than basically the entire Summit League. Who has leverage here that wasn't in place before the Summit nickname proclamation? UND.

The Summit League is like a potential employer telling a prospective employee to divorce an estranged wife as an employment demand, when the employee still has hopes of saving the marriage. Not Kosher.

(staying in line with your ridiculous analogy) Except that the estranged wife could potentially cost the potential employer many millions of dollars and the divorce judge has already ruled that the husband may divorce her at any time without penalty. There was no requirement that the wife be given until Nov to decide in the prenuptial agreement.

[MplsBison]

To the people at UND that are accountable for things like wins, losses, athletic budgets, alumni donations, enrollment, and general growth of the university I'd say that five years means a whole hell of a lot. I do agree with you in that I now think the Summit will still be there in December 2010 after this is allowed to play out one way or the other.

They could be. Then again, they could decide that they will be choosing 2 additional teams for expansion to 12 this late spring.

I put either scenario at about 50-50, right now.

Rest assured, they will move on without UND, if required!

[MplsBison]

Why are Bison fans so worried about UND getting into the Summit?

Shouldn't NDSU fans be wanting UND to stay in DI purgatory (independent/Great West)?

Or do NDSU, SDSU, and soon USD, want UND in the conference to help fill buildings with visiting fans?

I want North Dakota to have the best representation at the DI level as possible, not only for the sake of the state, but for the sake of the state's future student athletes who want to compete at the DI level. That can only happen with both NDSU and UND in auto-bid conferences. And the Summit is UND's only option for the foreseeable future.

[star2city]

They could be. Then again, they could decide that they will be choosing 2 additional teams for expansion to 12 this late spring.

I put either scenario at about 50-50, right now.

Rest assured, they will move on without UND, if required!

Yeah, they'll add Houston Baptist and UTPA, and then the piss off the entire eastern wing of the conference. Add two and lose 4: very smart politically there, MplsBison.

[MplsBison]

I guess I didn't have to. A Bison fan laid out a couple.

Look, the only way the Summit loses teams in the immediate future is if the Horizon somehow loses teams. Then it is possible that the Horizon could ask Oakland or the IUPU schools to join the Horizon. That's not a certainty and it's also not certain that they would leave the Summit for the Horizon. But it is the only possibility.

No one has even touched who from the Horizon is going to leave that league and into what conference they would switch.

I don't see any plausible scenarios. But I am willing to entertain theories.

[star2city]

(staying in line with your ridiculous analogy) Except that the estranged wife could potentially cost the potential employer many millions of dollars and the divorce judge has already ruled that the husband may divorce her at any time without penalty. There was no requirement that the wife be given until Nov to decide in the prenuptial agreement.

Like the MWC with Utah, or the ACC with Florida State, or the MAC with Central Michigan all have prenups if their tribes pull the names.

[MplsBison]

Yeah, they'll add Houston Baptist and UTPA, and then the piss off the entire eastern wing of the conference. Add two and lose 4: very smart politically there, MplsBison.

Or they could add Chicago State, to appease the great lakes schools and Utah Valley to appease Southern Utah.

[star2city]

Look, the only way the Summit loses teams in the immediate future is if the Horizon somehow loses teams. Then it is possible that the Horizon could ask Oakland or the IUPU schools to join the Horizon. That's not a certainty and it's also not certain that they would leave the Summit for the Horizon. But it is the only possibility.

No one has even touched who from the Horizon is going to leave that league and into what conference they would switch.

I don't see any plausible scenarios. But I am willing to entertain theories.

It's been laid out by me a million times, but you're just too obstinate to acknowledge it.

[MplsBison]

Like the MWC with Utah, or the ACC with Florida State, or the MAC with Central Michigan all have prenups if their tribes pull the names.

None of those schools have an issue with their respective tribes. UND does.

Life's tough.