Facilities Master Plan

[GeauxSioux]

A DI basketball program should have a facility designed for basketball. The Alerus is a football stadium with a makeshift basketball court. The atmosphere would be horrible. Even with a healthy increase in interest in UND basketball, the Ralph is still much too big. And the split-schedule idea is ridiculous.

Simply put, the Betty was built too small. It was built for "today" as a very good DII facility, but it leaves no room for any growth in interest as the program moves up to DI. At the time it was built, UND hadn't yet declared a move to DI, but most people even slightly aware of what was going on knew that division classification was still an unsettled issue and that UND would almost certainly move up to DI in a matter of time. Either a DI facility should have been built, or no facility should have been built at that time.

You only get a few opportunities to build brand new facilities. You should be looking out 30 to 40 years when you do. To build a DII facility under the circumstances was inexcusable IMO. UND will not be in a position to build a new basketball facility for decades and will be stuck with an undersized venue. If money was an issue, they should have waited until they could afford a bigger facility. With the money it took to build the Betty, they would been 2/3 of the way there before the fundraising drive even started.

I agree with that REA may be too big with the schedule that UND is playing right now, but when you start getting some higher profile schools in, that will change. I watched a few conference games a couple of years ago when all of the conference games were being played in the Ralph and enjoyed it. Additionally, wouldn't REA make more money off concessions and suites if the games were held in REA instead of BESC??

I'm thinking that just the lower bowl and suites would be used for BB. What would be the capacity in that scenario?

[MplsBison]

Conference affiliation, among other issues, will answer that. If UND is heading to the MidCon, as you are so firmly convinced, it would be highly doubtful that LAX would be added.

Whereas if UND goes to the Big Sky, LAX would certainly be added seeing that...no BSC members have it...?

Actually, not a single western conference sponsers the sport.

[mksioux]

I agree with that REA may be too big with the schedule that UND is playing right now, but when you start getting some higher profile schools in, that will change. I watched a few conference games a couple of years ago when all of the conference games were being played in the Ralph and enjoyed it. Additionally, wouldn't REA make more money off concessions and suites if the games were held in REA instead of BESC??

I'm thinking that just the lower bowl and suites would be used for BB. What would be the capacity in that scenario?

If UND's goal is to move up to DI the proverbial "right way", then using the lower bowl of the hockey arena for the basketball team fails the test. Basketball needs its own home with an appropriate seating capacity. Perhaps someone can educate me on seating capacities for successful mid majors, but I'm pretty sure it's more than 3,500 and less than 13,000.

[MplsBison]

UNI just built a new 6500 (around there) bball arena for 30 million.

I don't think UND is going to spend 30 million just for a new bball arena.

[mksioux]

UNI just built a new 6500 (around there) bball arena for 30 million.

I don't think UND is going to spend 30 million just for a new bball arena.

The McLeod Center looks like a very nice facility. Not to quibble, but according to this site, total cost was $26 million and it was originally projected to be quite a bit less than that. They exceeded their fundraising goals and put a lot of extras into it. I'm sure you could build a 6,500 seat facility for less than $30 million if you wanted. But obviously UND is not going to spend $10, let alone millions, to build a new basketball facility when they already have a brand new one.

I think the Betty was $7 million plus or something like that. But my point was that if money was the reason they didn't make the Betty bigger, they could have invested the money used to build it instead of immediately building an undersized facility. At that point, the fundraising drive to get the remaining funds necessary to build a new 6,500 seat facility would not have been insurmountable. But it's too late now.

I'm not even a basketball fan, but the only reason I continue to harp on this issue is because -- on the surface -- it appears to represent an obvious lack of vision by UND officials. Actually, I'm kind of hoping someone will articulate why I'm wrong and say why the Betty is the right size. Maybe I'm missing something.

[UND92,96]

The McLeod Center looks like a very nice facility. Not to quibble, but according to this site, total cost was $26 million and it was originally projected to be quite a bit less than that. They exceeded their fundraising goals and put a lot of extras into it. I'm sure you could build a 6,500 seat facility for less than $30 million if you wanted. But obviously UND is not going to spend $10, let alone millions, to build a new basketball facility when they already have a brand new one.

I think the Betty was $7 million plus or something like that. But my point was that if money was the reason they didn't make the Betty bigger, they could have invested the money used to build it instead of immediately building an undersized facility. At that point, the fundraising drive to get the remaining funds necessary to build a new 6,500 seat facility would not have been insurmountable. But it's too late now.

I'm not even a basketball fan, but the only reason I continue to harp on this issue is because -- on the surface -- it appears to represent an obvious lack of vision by UND officials. Actually, I'm kind of hoping someone will articulate why I'm wrong and say why the Betty is the right size. Maybe I'm missing something.

There was a pretty long thread on this subject last year. I believe the problem is that the Betty was rushed so that it would be completed in time for use during the world juniors a couple of years ago. I place far more blame on REA than on UND for the problems with its size and to a lesser extent its design. Had the men's basketball program been anywhere close to the level it was during the early 90's, there's no way the Betty could have been used for conference games last year, at least not without losing out on a huge amount of revenue due to ticket demand far exceeding supply. Most basketball fans I know are quite disappointed with the seating capacity of the Betty.

[dakotadan]

And disappointed in the lack of any sort of concourse.

[bogeyboge50]

I dont have any sources but... My dad was telling me that UND Football is getting a 100,000,000$ football stadium! Gunna be built by know other then Ms.Ralph Engelstad! has anyone heard of this also!!

[bincitysioux]

The thing that is most disappointing to me about the Sioux Center is the attendance. And for that reason I don't believe it is at all undersized. It's listed capacity is 3,300.............so until the Sioux start drawing 3,300 on a regular basis for basketball games, it isn't undersized in my opinion.

Those who think it was built too small for a Division I UND, consider this: basketball is a tertiary sport at UND, behind hockey and football, and it always will be. For argument's sake, let's comapare it to Gonzaga, which is unquestionably the most successful "mid-major" basketball program in the country. IIRC, they not to long ago built a new 6,000 seat basketball arena. Does anybody really think that UND basketball will one day equal Gonzaga's program and its popularity? While I would love to see it, I don't think it is going to happen. What the Sioux Center does offer is a state of the art playing facility for both basketball and volleyball. And when it is filled up with fans, it provides an outstanding atmosphere for both the fans and the players. And I must admit that I am in the camp that thinks if certain games that would be large draws warrant it, I don't think there is anything wrong with being able to move the game 300 feet to the right into the REA. Most schools would love to have that option for their tertiary sport.

I for one think that UND had great vision when building the Sioux Center. They probably have one of the nicest volleyball facilities in the country, they probably have one of the nicest basketball venues (comfort, atmosphere, luxury-wise) in the country, probably one of the nicest basketball practice facilities in the country, and if interest does grow by leaps and bounds........well, then they'll probably be playing in a $110 million basketball arena.

[UND92,96]

The thing that is most disappointing to me about the Sioux Center is the attendance. And for that reason I don't believe it is at all undersized. It's listed capacity is 3,300.............so until the Sioux start drawing 3,300 on a regular basis for basketball games, it isn't undersized in my opinion.

Those who think it was built too small for a Division I UND, consider this: basketball is a tertiary sport at UND, behind hockey and football, and it always will be. For argument's sake, let's comapare it to Gonzaga, which is unquestionably the most successful "mid-major" basketball program in the country. IIRC, they not to long ago built a new 6,000 seat basketball arena. Does anybody really think that UND basketball will one day equal Gonzaga's program and its popularity? While I would love to see it, I don't think it is going to happen. What the Sioux Center does offer is a state of the art playing facility for both basketball and volleyball. And when it is filled up with fans, it provides an outstanding atmosphere for both the fans and the players. And I must admit that I am in the camp that thinks if certain games that would be large draws warrant it, I don't think there is anything wrong with being able to move the game 300 feet to the right into the REA. Most schools would love to have that option for their tertiary sport.

I for one think that UND had great vision when building the Sioux Center. They probably have one of the nicest volleyball facilities in the country, they probably have one of the nicest basketball venues (comfort, atmosphere, luxury-wise) in the country, probably one of the nicest basketball practice facilities in the country, and if interest does grow by leaps and bounds........well, then they'll probably be playing in a $110 million basketball arena.

I think attendance is down all over the NCC due to having too many non-conference games in a short period of time and often on weeknights, and the loss of traditional rivals which drew very large crowds, bringing up the season average. Finally, the odd-number of teams in the NCC has resulted in a lot of one-game weekends, with that one game often being on a Thursday. Thursday games are never going to draw as well as Friday or Saturday, although I realize Thursday-Saturday games will be the norm for a dI conference.

I have been going to UND basketball games my entire life, and I can recall many seasons where every conference game had crowds far in excess of the Betty's capacity. Granted, with the move to dI and the fact that men/women doubleheaders will cease to happen, things may never be exactly the same as they were, but I have no doubts that 3300 will be far too small of a capacity once UND is in a dI conference, and has decent teams.

[dakotadan]

What about something a little like this?

Brailsford & Dunlavey

Jackson State University is looking at building this stadium in the neighborhood of $80 Million. While 40,000 might be a little big to begin with, starting at 30,000 and then expanding to 40,000 would be about right.

[SiouxMD]

What about something a little like this?

Brailsford & Dunlavey

Jackson State University is looking at building this stadium in the neighborhood of $80 Million. While 40,000 might be a little big to begin with, starting at 30,000 and then expanding to 40,000 would be about right.

Where is the retractable roof?

[Rick]

I dont have any sources but... My dad was telling me that UND Football is getting a 100,000,000$ football stadium! Gunna be built by know other then Ms.Ralph Engelstad! has anyone heard of this also!!

I wouldn't be surprised if UND is looking at a new stadium, but I'd be shocked if your sources of the funds are correct.

[dakotadan]

Where is the retractable roof?

I figured that would come after we expanded up to 75,000.

[Matt]

I figured that would come after we expanded up to 75,000.

I would like aggressive attendance goals like that from the marketing department! Now, how do we get every man, woman, and child in the area to go to every football game?

[MplsBison]

I wouldn't be surprised if UND is looking at a new stadium, but I'd be shocked if your sources of the funds are correct.

I think he was joking.

Why would UND want a new facility when they have a 5 year old (right?) one? Just because it's not on campus?

With new turf, the Alerus would be a top 10 facility in the CS.

[The Sicatoka]

Why would UND want a new facility when they have a 5 year old (right?) one? Just because it's not on campus?

A possible (albeit speculative answer) is that with the Canad Inn coming on-line at The Al soon, the convention center aspect of the facility may become more important than the football aspects.

[MplsBison]

But there's no way they'd simply say "well, UND football, we need this place as a convention center more than a football arena, even though there are 10k permanent seats as well as suites that have no function during conventions".

That doesn't make much sense.

2 new hotels opened up next to the Fargodome, but they certainly aren't going to be kicking the football team out any time soon.

[The Sicatoka]

I'm not sure you understand.

Canad Inn isn't "a hotel across the street" from The Al.

It's a multistory, multi-restaurant, convention and destination complex with its own indoor waterpark.

And it's connected to the north end of The Alerus Center (at the Aurora ballroom).

http://www.canadinns.com/grandforks/ and http://www.canadinns.com/photogallery/gall...p?gallery_id=20

[mksioux]

I'm not sure you understand.

Canad Inn isn't "a hotel across the street" from The Al.

It's a multistory, multi-restaurant, convention and destination complex with its own indoor waterpark.

And it's connected to the north end of The Alerus Center (at the Aurora ballroom).

http://www.canadinns.com/grandforks/ and http://www.canadinns.com/photogallery/gall...p?gallery_id=20

Don't get me wrong, the Canad Inns will be great for the Al, but the Al will still very much need UND football. Every major facility like that needs an anchor tenant that has consistent scheduling it can rely upon.

Having said that, I still think UND should be thinking long term about a new on-campus football facility.

[GeauxSioux]

Buning said he anticipates that a completed master plan report will be available for presentation to the public and University community in the fall of 2006.

Aren't we quickly approaching the end of fall? Has anyone heard anthing on the report or even rumors of the report?

[The Sicatoka]

Aren't we quickly approaching the end of fall? Has anyone heard anthing on the report or even rumors of the report?

I'm hearing "February" ...

[GeauxSioux]

I'm hearing "February" ...

Do you hear any other little tidbits?

[The Sicatoka]

Do you hear any other little tidbits?

Nope.

[MplsBison]

I'm not sure you understand.

Canad Inn isn't "a hotel across the street" from The Al.

It's a multistory, multi-restaurant, convention and destination complex with its own indoor waterpark.

And it's connected to the north end of The Alerus Center (at the Aurora ballroom).

http://www.canadinns.com/grandforks/ and http://www.canadinns.com/photogallery/gall...p?gallery_id=20

My argument still stands.

What are they going to do with those 10k seats and the suites? They serve no function during a convention.