Football Attendance 2005

[SiouxMD]

2005 NCAA Football Attendance

UND ranked 5th out of 147 DII football teams in attendance average for the 2005 season.

1) West Texas A&M (13,089)

2) Tuskegee (11,307)

3) Miles (10,214)

4) Angelo St. (9,483)

5) North Dakota (9,425)

6) Grand Valley St. (9,242)

...

14) South Dakota (7,597)

34) Nebraska-Omaha (4,893)

45) Minnesota State - Mankato (4,041)

47) St. Cloud State (3,935)

51) Minnesota Duluth (3,745)

61) Augustana (3,361)

92) Western Washington (2,588)

96) Central Washington (2,518)

In DI-A...UND would rank #115 (117 teams).

In DI-AA...UND would rank #34 (116 teams).

UND Average Attendance

2003 - 9,033

2002 - 9,488

2001 - 10,517

[IowaBison]

2005 NCAA Football Attendance

UND Average Attendance

2003 - 9,033

2002 - 9,488

2001 - 10,517

Looks like UND better do a $35 million capital campaign to expand the alerus!

i kid, i kid.

[jimdahl]

Looks like UND better do a $35 million capital campaign to expand the alerus!

i kid, i kid.

I had the exact same reaction when I first read "expand the Alerus" -- why would we do that when it's never even full? The answer that satisfied me was that we need more burst capacity for sellouts and need to be able to accomodate larger crowds if we want to attract interest from I-AA conferences. Think of all those years of NDSU playing to a half empty FargoDome, yet the extra space came in handy when the UND game came around and when NDSU started shopping itself to I-AA conferences.

Back to the topic, great attendance. UND is pretty definitively one of the biggest shows in D-II, and would be in the top third of I-AA if it maintained that attendance after a transition.

[The Sicatoka]

Looks to me like UND and NDSU are both averaging roughly 70-75% of full stadium capacity over the past five seasons.

Now there's talk of expanding a facility that's been running 70-75% full. What's strange about that? At least there are ways it could be done.

[UND92,96]

The interesting thing about the 2005 attendance is that for regular season games only, this was the second time UND has exceeded 10,000 per game, as the average was 10,126. That poorly-attended playoff game really cut into the average.

[IowaBison]

I had the exact same reaction when I first read "expand the Alerus" -- why would we do that when it's never even full? The answer that satisfied me was that we need more burst capacity for sellouts and need to be able to accomodate larger crowds if we want to attract interest from I-AA conferences. Think of all those years of NDSU playing to a half empty FargoDome, yet the extra space came in handy when the UND game came around and when NDSU started shopping itself to I-AA conferences.

Back to the topic, great attendance. UND is pretty definitively one of the biggest shows in D-II, and would be in the top third of I-AA if it maintained that attendance after a transition.

The size of the Alerus, and more importantly historical attendance, are more than enough to spur the interest of any DI-AA conference.

Besides Montana and NDSU, I don't know who the sure sellouts would be for at least in the first five years (hint to Bunning: schedule good games early in the season as most Sioux fans are casual and don't attend November games against good teams).

And don't forget the importance of atmosphere and jacking up the price due to short supply of seats. Adding 4,000 seats that will be empty for all but one game a year is pretty silly considering the cost.

[IowaBison]

Looks to me like UND and NDSU are both averaging roughly 70-75% of full stadium capacity over the past five seasons.

Now there's talk of expanding a facility that's been running 70-75% full. What's strange about that? At least there are ways it could be done.

Of course, the counterpoint to your argument is that UND should then build a stadium of infinite size as it will be 75% full.

[UND92,96]

The size of the Alerus, and more importantly historical attendance, are more than enough to spur the interest of any DI-AA conference.

Besides Montana and NDSU, I don't know who the sure sellouts would be for at least in the first five years (hint to Bunning: schedule good games early in the season as most Sioux fans are casual and don't attend November games against good teams).

And don't forget the importance of atmosphere and jacking up the price due to short supply of seats. Adding 4,000 seats that will be empty for all but one game a year is pretty silly considering the cost.

Late regular season games tend to have somewhat smaller crowds, but the much bigger dropoff occurs for early round playoff games. It's that way for basketball, and to a lesser extent hockey for the first round of the WCHA playoffs. I've never really understood why that is, but it nearly always happens. I think November football games would be better attended if they were played at night, but Lennon is on record as saying he doesn't like night games, so I doubt that will happen.

[IowaBison]

I always thought it was a hunting/hockey thing.

[The Sicatoka]

Of course, the counterpoint to your argument is that UND should then build a stadium of infinite size as it will be 75% full.

Is that what I said? No, that's not what I said. Nice try however.

My inference was that 25% "excess capacity" in a facility the size of The Al may not be what they want any more. A quick peek at DI-AA numbers from this year show a lot of teams running at an average more like 60% of house. 10000-ish average in a 17000-ish house would be about 60% average (reasonable) and would hold big games.

[IowaBison]

Is that what I said? No, that's not what I said. Nice try however.

My inference was that 25% "excess capacity" in a facility the size of The Al may not be what they want any more. A quick peek at DI-AA numbers from this year show a lot of teams running at an average more like 60% of house. 10000-ish average in a 17000-ish house would be about 60% average (reasonable) and would hold big games.

And in the years Yale-Harvard isn't in New Haven, Yale averages about twenty percent of capacity, the next year the rivalry game sells out and their numbers jump.

[The Sicatoka]

And in the years Yale-Harvard isn't in New Haven, Yale averages about twenty percent of capacity, the next year the rivalry game sells out and their numbers jump.

Yale's stadium was built (1914) when they and Army were the powers in college football.

They aren't that today and their attendance shows it; but they still have the stadium from that time.

Yale vs. Army, November 3, 1923: 80,000 attendance. (100% capacity)

[NDSU grad]

Is that what I said? No, that's not what I said. Nice try however.

My inference was that 25% "excess capacity" in a facility the size of The Al may not be what they want any more. A quick peek at DI-AA numbers from this year show a lot of teams running at an average more like 60% of house. 10000-ish average in a 17000-ish house would be about 60% average (reasonable) and would hold big games.

Does that line of reasoning apply to all sports or just football?

[The Sicatoka]

I guess I don't see what you guys think you see in what I'm saying.

I'm not saying building a bigger stadium will automatically increase average attendance**. (Note the 70-75% of house going to 60% in a more seats house.)

I'm saying a bigger building might be useful for "peak" or "high interest" games.

And depending on how "bigger" is done, might it be useful on days other than gameday? Again, who yet knows?

** I'm far from saying it here (because I don't believe it would happen for football at UND), but there is a local case of "build bigger stadium means bigger average attendance": Ralph Engelstad Arena.

[NDSU grad]

I guess I don't see what you guys think you see in what I'm saying.

I'm not saying building a bigger stadium will automatically increase average attendance**. (Note the 70-75% of house going to 60% in a more seats house.)

I'm saying a bigger building might be useful for "peak" or "high interest" games.

And depending on how "bigger" is done, might it be useful on days other than gameday? Again, who yet knows?

** I'm far from saying it here (because I don't believe it would happen for football at UND), but there is a local case of "build bigger stadium means bigger average attendance": Ralph Engelstad Arena.

But how many fans would you get for a UND-UM hockey game? 16,000-18,000? Wisconsin could even have the potential of bringing 15,000 or so. So why not expand REA to accomodate that potential crowd?

[The Sicatoka]

But how many fans would you get for a UND-UM hockey game? 16,000-18,000? Wisconsin could even have the potential of bringing 15,000 or so. So why not expand REA to accomodate that potential crowd?

I'd love to! How's it going to work and who's going to pay for it? A donation would be great!

Oh, yeah, those are the same open questions here.

We're in "notion tossed out by someone" stage right now (both Buning and you)!.

Why's everyone so uptight over it?

Or is it that NDSU fans are uptight about someone at UND publicly speculationg about a comparably-sized arena to FargoDome? Why should DI-AA fans worry about what a DII is doing?

[dakotadan]

But how many fans would you get for a UND-UM hockey game? 16,000-18,000? Wisconsin could even have the potential of bringing 15,000 or so. So why not expand REA to accomodate that potential crowd?

That is what I have been saying! We could take out one of the club lounges and continue the bowl seating around on that end of the rink. It could easily boost capacity up to 13-14,000. This would also allow us to sell more season tickets = more $$$!

If a NDSU grad says it, it must be right!!!

[NDSU grad]

That is what I have been saying! We could take out one of the club lounges and continue the bowl seating around on that end of the rink. It could easily boost capacity up to 13-14,000. This would also allow us to sell more season tickets = more $$$!

If a NDSU grad says it, it must be right!!!

It's about time you guys catch on.

I'm really not uptight about it or anything. It just seems odd (at least to me) that UND would talk about expanding the Alerus right now. For the record, I would also find it odd if NDSU started talking about spending money to expand the Fargodome to accomodate 25,000.

[Cratter]

It's about time you guys catch on.

I'm really not uptight about it or anything. It just seems odd (at least to me) that UND would talk about expanding the Alerus right now. For the record, I would also find it odd if NDSU started talking about spending money to expand the Fargodome to accomodate 25,000.

Even some Sioux fans find it odd. In reality it was probably nothing more than a sales pitch to get donations for athletics. (for a pending divisional move/keep up with da Bison.)

[IowaBison]

Even some Sioux fans find it odd. In reality it was probably nothing more than a sales pitch to get donations for athletics. (for a pending divisional move/keep up with da Bison.)

I think you're right.

[star2city]

I think you're right.

Sioux fans may find it odd, but why would Buning even bring up the subject if there wasn/'t some real possibility of significant private donations backing it. IMO, its 50/50 probability that UND will start construction on an indoor facility AND an ALERUS expansion prior to, as an example, NDSU's BSA being refurbished.

[IowaBison]

NDSU has raised nearly all the money needed for the BSA project.

Now UND might have a surprise donor or it might begin construction without money in hand but given those two exceptions I think you're off by a couple of months, if not years.

[bincitysioux]

I am perplexed by the discussion of expanding the seating in the Alerus. There has only been one sell-out in 5 years. There likely won't be any more sell-outs unless a DI move is made, and NDSU comes to town. That is also questionable, because by UND's numbers the final UND-NDSU game did not sell out either. I just don't see a need for it at this point in time. Perhaps after we've been members of the Big Sky for about 10 years, but not now. The only seating modifications that I think would be immediately beneficial to increasing attendance at the games, and relatively cost efficient, would be to add REA-style Club Lounges in the North and South concourses. The Clubs in the REA are always packed and offer a nice "upscale" alternative to the Suites, that both regular fans can afford and Corporations would be interested in owning seats in. Having a place in the building like this where fans are catered to would likely bring more people to the games just for the experience of being there, which is why alot of people come to hockey games, because it's the place to be on a Friday or Saturday night.

I know someone mentioned that moving FB games to 7 p.m. rather than 1 p.m. may help attendance. I'd agree. At least moving non-conference games to evening Kickoffs would certainly help attendance. Alot of people do work all day on Saturdays. Why does Coach Lennon oppose this?

[Hansel]

I am perplexed by the discussion of expanding the seating in the Alerus. There has only been one sell-out in 5 years. There likely won't be any more sell-outs unless a DI move is made, and NDSU comes to town. That is also questionable, because by UND's numbers the final UND-NDSU game did not sell out either. I just don't see a need for it at this point in time. Perhaps after we've been members of the Big Sky for about 10 years, but not now. The only seating modifications that I think would be immediately beneficial to increasing attendance at the games, and relatively cost efficient, would be to add REA-style Club Lounges in the North and South concourses. The Clubs in the REA are always packed and offer a nice "upscale" alternative to the Suites, that both regular fans can afford and Corporations would be interested in owning seats in. Having a place in the building like this where fans are catered to would likely bring more people to the games just for the experience of being there, which is why alot of people come to hockey games, because it's the place to be on a Friday or Saturday night.

I know someone mentioned that moving FB games to 7 p.m. rather than 1 p.m. may help attendance. I'd agree. At least moving non-conference games to evening Kickoffs would certainly help attendance. Alot of people do work all day on Saturdays. Why does Coach Lennon oppose this?

Most coaches and players like to play games at 1 pm,

also does the Alerus actually seat 13,500? Haven't the last few "sellouts" been counted around 12,500? I have been to FB games in the UNI-Dome (which seats 16,500- with Bleacher type seating) and the Alerus seems a lot smaller. Could we have a Betty-type situation where the Alerus doesn't hold as many as we thought???

[bincitysioux]

Most coaches and players like to play games at 1 pm,

also does the Alerus actually seat 13,500? Haven't the last few "sellouts" been counted around 12,500? I have been to FB games in the UNI-Dome (which seats 16,500- with Bleacher type seating) and the Alerus seems a lot smaller. Could we have a Betty-type situation where the Alerus doesn't hold as many as we thought???

The only Alerus Center sell-out that I am aware of is the 2001 Sioux-Bison game in which attendance is listed at 13,500, the listed capacity of the Alerus. There have been several games since then around 12,500 including the last Sioux-Bison game, but I have never heard of any other game being a sell-out. I have heard rumors that UND is notorious for underreporting football games at the Alerus. The Sioux Center situation is entirely different.