D-II vs. DI-AA level of play

[homer]

1. I agree with your points, but it is my opinion that there is a "wide" gap between the two divisions. Have you ever seen a DIAA football game? If not, go to one and then come back here and tell me there is a small gap.

What type of gap where you implying??

[BisonMav]

Mea culpa, I've honestly never heard that. Admittedly, the last I saw on the topic was late summer when NDSU's stance was adamant refusal. Do you have a link to NDSU making that offer since then?

I am talking about the original contract that was rejected in 2004

[IowaBison]

UNC went 3-2 against IAA teams in 03 (1-2 vs Fully Funded schools)

Since moving to IAA (03 for UNC/UCD, 04 for SU's), here are the records of schools vs fully funded IAA teams

UNC 3-13

UC-Davis 6-6

NDSU 6-4

SDSU 1-8

combined 16-31

vs DII over that same time span

a combined 19-1, (in 03 UCD lost to GVSU in OT)

That kind of gap.

[jimdahl]

I am talking about the original contract that was rejected in 2004

Well that's kind of unfair to raise an old offer when more contemporary negotations have occurred; Buning specifically raised the issue again this summer now that D-II playoff rules don't penalize UND even for defeating I-AA teams, as they used to. The situation, as it currently stands, is that UND has expressed interest in playing NDSU but NDSU said, "hell no".

I reiterate that NDSU's refusal to schedule UND is a combination of spite (UND refused to schedule NDSU when they began their transition) and fear of scheduling a lower division opponent that could beat them. Admittedly, a loss in such a game would hurt UND far less than NDSU, but if the gap were already so wide that NDSU's win was as guaranteed as some Bison fans speculate, the administration would jump at the guaranteed sellout.

[administrator]

I'm splitting this topic from the recruiting thread, should make both easier to follow.

[IowaBison]

I think a lot of folks missed an important part of the proposal

UND Proposal

"Taylor said UND proposed the game in Minneapolis to gain exposure for the schools there."

[jimdahl]

I think a lot of folks missed an important part of the proposal

UND Proposal

"Taylor said UND proposed the game in Minneapolis to gain exposure for the schools there."

I had considered that just an idea that Buning proposed to address the location problem (to the benefit of both schools) to help get things moving. Had NDSU said they didn't like that idea and instead proposed a reasonable home/home ratio or offered suitable guarantees, negotiations would have at least continued. Instead NDSU ran to the newspapers to declare they had absolutely no interest in playing those meanies at UND. I was just giving the other side of the story to the new member who suggested that it was UND that was currently unwilling to play NDSU.

Back on topic -- in moving all these posts, I didn't notice any of them claim I-AA is no better than II. In fact, the majority of Sioux fans bent over backwards to acknowledge that there's more talent at the top of I-AA. I think most were just claiming that there is some overlap between the two divisions so UND (one of the very top D-II teams) may be able to quickly fit into I-AA. We take the immediate, though perhaps modest, success of NDSU as supporting evidence that. Why does that get Bison fans so riled up?

[IowaBison]

I really don't know how much better aa is than DII.

Overall I definitely believe DIAA is stronger than DII, but I believe the Elite teams in DII are right there with almost all the top teams in DIAA.

If your best teams are as good as our best teams.....

... it is a pretty minor jump ....

The top teams in DII are right there with the top of DIAA.

Every division you go up gets arbitrarily better, as one would assume.

arbitrary: 1.Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle:

2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference

[Cratter]

I think most were just claiming that there is some overlap between the two divisions so UND (one of the very top D-II teams) may be able to quickly fit into I-AA. We take the immediate, though perhaps modest, success of NDSU as supporting evidence that. Why does that get Bison fans so riled up?

Well put Jim.

[Cratter]

If your best teams are as good as our best teams.....

arbitrary: 1.Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle:

2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference

Why do you keep backing up Sioux fans arguments?

Snaggles was asking a question as he didn't know the answer.

Heres what he also wrote

I will stick by my guns and say that aa is better than DII but not by the amount that the bison fans think.

Sultan wrote

I definitely believe DIAA is stronger than DII

as you even quoted.

BigGame again said it was a jump, but it was minor like many Sioux fans believe.

I, Cratter, wrote also

The fact is everyone knows AA is "better" than D2

Jim will thank you later for backing up his points.

I think most were just claiming that there is some overlap between the two divisions so UND (one of the very top D-II teams) may be able to quickly fit into I-AA. We take the immediate, though perhaps modest, success of NDSU as supporting evidence that. Why does that get Bison fans so riled up?

[IowaBison]

To some up then:

DIAA is better than DII-obviously.

But only a little bit.

well arbitrarily so.

In fact our best teams are as good as your best teams.

And of course, UND has had a better team than NDSU the past ten years and they're successful, so we'd be just as successful---nah, we'd be better.

[sultan]

crater is your word, not mine.

And I don't disagree that there are some very good DII programs (I still follow DII) that 'could play'. I would be surprised to see GVSU, UND, or Pittsburg State to be in the top 25 in the years immediately following a hypothetical move.

GVSU would be lucky to be above .500 in the Gateway (and I don't mean that to be derogatory to the Lakers). UND and Pittsburg would be about the same (at best) in the Big Sky or the Great West.

I agree with Jim (who I think you can agree is quite balanced and objective) that the Bison would probably beat the Sioux right now. That would put them in the middle of the Great West and outside the top 25.

If I'm not mistaken didn't NDSU finish top twenty something in there first year of DIAA. I believe just a few months earlier they couldn't beat UND or St. Cloud and didn't even make the playoffs in DII. Remember, that was just a few months, yes a few months earlier.. At that point UND would certainly have done just as well as NDSU. It is very obvious that the gap to DIAA is not nearly wide as most all ndsu fans want us to believe. From what I've read here, most UND fans agree that DIAA football is better than DII. UND fans just say that the gap is relatively small. There certainly is not this wide gap that Bison fans want us to believe. Once again you Bison fans should go back to your website where you get away with that kind of dribble.

[Cratter]

2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference

Arbitrary: as in it is my personal individual judegement that every division gets better as you would assume "going up."

As in: you can only argue, of which many people may do, as to which division is "better," because you can never base it on facts.

Lets say the champion of AA plays the champion of D2 and the D2 team wins (at the end of the season). Does that make D2 "better." I'd say no, some might say yes, but it is arbitrary = individuals judgements.

Do you get it now?

That might be to much thought for you. Your rationale thoughts seem to be few and far between. You have to try and not assume what people mean.

[IowaBison]

Arbitrary: as in it is my personal individual judegement that every division gets better as you would assume "going up."

As in: you can only argue, we many people may do, as to which division is "better," because you can never base it on facts.

Lets say the champion of AA plays the champion of D2 and the D2 wins (at the end of the season). Does that make D2 "better." I'd say no, some might say yes, but it is arbitrary = individuals judgements.

Do you get it now?

That might be to much thought for you.

I'm sure that's what you meant, but it doesn't fit the context.

You should have omitted the term, instead of using it incorrectly.

[Cratter]

To some up then:

And of course, UND has had a better team than NDSU the past ten years and they're successful, so we'd be just as successful---nah, we'd be better.

You mean "to sum up then:" and your giving me lessons.

UND fans agree NDSU is probably better than them right now. It would be foolish to think otherwise. But it is also foolish for NDSU fans to think that if UND didn't move up with NDSU at the same time that they couldn't be doing just as good as the Bison are now if not better. Based upon the facts that UND was generally better than NDSU the last few years they played.

[IowaBison]

If I'm not mistaken didn't NDSU finish top twenty something in there first year of DIAA. I believe just a few months earlier they couldn't beat UND or St. Cloud and didn't even make the playoffs in DII. Remember, that was just a few months, yes a few months earlier.. At that point UND would certainly have done just as well as NDSU. It is very obvious that the gap to DIAA is not nearly wide as most all ndsu fans want us to believe. From what I've read here, most UND fans agree that DIAA football is better than DII. UND fans just say that the gap is relatively small. There certainly is not this wide gap that Bison fans want us to believe. Once again you Bison fans should go back to your website where you get away with that kind of dribble.

Outstanding anecdotal evidence and I believe the number of months you omitted was 12 a full year, or about 13 months after the Bison took UND to overtime AFTER a 2-8 season. And of course, UND would have done as well, heck they would have gone 9-2-obviously, they had beaten the Bison the majority of the times in the last ten years.

Also, I love it when individuals make a provocative statement and then tell you to leave!

[IowaBison]

You mean "to sum up then:" and your giving me lessons.

I love it when folks bring up spelling and usage. Your error completely changed the meaning of your message, mine was still completely understandable. (Notice how petty it is that I will also bring up your misuse of your, it should be you're, as I understand the meaning of your post where you are trying to critique me.)

UND fans agree NDSU is probably better than them right now. It would be foolish to think otherwise. But it is also foolish for NDSU fans to think that if UND didn't move up with NDSU at the same time that they couldn't be doing just as good as the Bison are now if not better. Based upon the facts that UND was generally better than NDSU the last few years they played.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

[BisonMav]

Well that's kind of unfair to raise an old offer when more contemporary negotations have occurred; Buning specifically raised the issue again this summer now that D-II playoff rules don't penalize UND even for defeating I-AA teams, as they used to. The situation, as it currently stands, is that UND has expressed interest in playing NDSU but NDSU said, "hell no".

I reiterate that NDSU's refusal to schedule UND is a combination of spite (UND refused to schedule NDSU when they began their transition) and fear of scheduling a lower division opponent that could beat them. Admittedly, a loss in such a game would hurt UND far less than NDSU, but if the gap were already so wide that NDSU's win was as guaranteed as some Bison fans speculate, the administration would jump at the guaranteed sellout.

It is fair to bring up the past. If some one burns me in a business transaction, I will think twice about entering into a business agreement with that person again. You can call it spite, maybe NDSU is just afraid of getting burned again. I doubt they are afraid of winning/losing.

Along the lines of the topic, I think UND would be very competitive right away. Once the Scholarships got up to the max 63 the team will be right up there.

[sultan]

Outstanding anecdotal evidence and I believe the number of months you omitted was 12 a full year, or about 13 months after the Bison took UND to overtime AFTER a 2-8 season. And of course, UND would have done as well, heck they would have gone 9-2-obviously, they had beaten the Bison the majority of the times in the last ten years.

Also, I love it when individuals make a provocative statement and then tell you to leave!

I suppose it did seem a longer time frame to Bison fans since there final season in DII once again didn't involve any post season. In reality it was just a couple three months into the next season that you were ranked. Now that we have that settled, now you can go back home. By the way, thanks for reminding us that not long before the end of your demise in DII you had a record of 2-8. That statistic really helps support your argument. ,

[IowaBison]

USA Today/ESPN 2004 Week 13 Poll

The Bison weren't ranked until week 13.

Which is what mid-November?

The last game the Bison played in 2003 was November 15......is that about 12 months?

[Cratter]

USA Today/ESPN 2004 Week 13 Poll

The Bison weren't ranked until week 13.

Which is what mid-November?

The last game the Bison played in 2003 was November 15......is that about 12 months?

That kind of gap.

[IowaBison]

That kind of gap.

An exception doesn't prove the rule.

[Bison Dan]

I suppose it did seem a longer time frame to Bison fans since there final season in DII once again didn't involve any post season. In reality it was just a couple three months into the next season that you were ranked. Now that we have that settled, now you can go back home. By the way, thanks for reminding us that not long before the end of your demise in DII you had a record of 2-8. That statistic really helps support your argument. ,

Help me out, but didn't NDSU win the all sports ncc title their final year.

[SiouxMD]

Help me out, but didn't NDSU win the all sports ncc title their final year.

NCC CUP 2003-04

You're welcome.

[NDSU grad]

If I'm not mistaken didn't NDSU finish top twenty something in there first year of DIAA. I believe just a few months earlier they couldn't beat UND or St. Cloud and didn't even make the playoffs in DII. Remember, that was just a few months, yes a few months earlier.. At that point UND would certainly have done just as well as NDSU. It is very obvious that the gap to DIAA is not nearly wide as most all ndsu fans want us to believe. From what I've read here, most UND fans agree that DIAA football is better than DII. UND fans just say that the gap is relatively small. There certainly is not this wide gap that Bison fans want us to believe. Once again you Bison fans should go back to your website where you get away with that kind of dribble

And I seem to recall a 5-6 UND team in 2002 coming back a "few months" later to play in the DII championship game. Look at USD between 2003 and 2004. Believe it or not, teams can get alot better in one year.