redwing77 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 The way I read it, the quoted portion provides a hypothetical scenario that the NCAA decided to avoid by pushing back the decision. The following, previously unquoted, portion makes that a little more clear: Precisely what I was trying to say. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 Precisely what I was trying to say. Thanks. I read your post a few more times and it still makes no sense to me. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 (PS - PCM owes me a for use of the "ox" line. ) You came up with the gored ox saying? You must be older than me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamKracker Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggler Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 You're right, this never will go away because even if UND gets the approval of every single tribe in the United States, you'll still come here bitching and whining about how horrible it is. I'm pretty sure you are the one who spends so much time on this issue as outside of this board, none of us are concerned about the name the way you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamKracker Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 You're right, this never will go away because even if UND gets the approval of every single tribe in the United States, you'll still come here bitching and whining about how horrible it is. I'm pretty sure you are the one who spends so much time on this issue as outside of this board, none of us are concerned about the name the way you are. Jeez, I wonder why that is diggler......could it be because YOU are NOT SIOUX? Just a little FYI....the National Congress of American Indians passed a resolution asking UND to quit using the FS logo/mascot. So the chances that UND would get the approval of "every single tribe" is about as good as Ralph going to.....nah, better not go there.....but anyways, I don't spend as much time on this issue as other "Jo"shmo's I know, actually I was too busy the last couple weeks hanging out with true "Sioux" people. I will skim over what is being talked about in these forums, but that's about it. It is nice to see that even though I'm not here all the time I'm talked about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggler Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Jeez, I wonder why that is diggler......could it be because YOU are NOT SIOUX? OK, so you say you think it's crazy the amount of time people here spend on this issue. I respond that you likely spend way more time on this issue and you get defensive. No one is Sioux but you. People who are Sioux and disagree with you aren't really Sioux. Like I said in the other thread we get it. You are all knowing and no matter what happens you will spend the rest of your life whining about the Sioux nickname because of all the perceived slights in your life. It's all because of the nickname. Everyone is against you. Life sucks. It's all because of the nickname. We get it. You win. We all are better off because you have educated us. Please teach us more. Since you are always right and anyone who dares disagree is always wrong, I guess I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamKracker Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 OK, so you say you think it's crazy the amount of time people here spend on this issue. I respond that you likely spend way more time on this issue and you get defensive. No one is Sioux but you. People who are Sioux and disagree with you aren't really Sioux. Like I said in the other thread we get it. You are all knowing and no matter what happens you will spend the rest of your life whining about the Sioux nickname because of all the perceived slights in your life. It's all because of the nickname. Everyone is against you. Life sucks. It's all because of the nickname. We get it. You win. We all are better off because you have educated us. Please teach us more. Since you are always right and anyone who dares disagree is always wrong, I guess I'm done. I'm not saying that I'm the only Sioux in here, what I am saying is that YOU, DIGGLER, are not SIOUX. Simple as that. And even though you blame me for everything, blame me for NCAA coming down on UND, blame me for all of the protests, and you think I'm the only living soul who is against the name, I am only one person. The facts I present to you go unheard. I know Sioux people who are for the name. I also know white people who are against it. So what? When I bring up the fact that the SIOUX nation does not want you to use the FS name/logo, its because it is a very powerful and commanding fact that needs to be addressed. Yet everyone dances around it likes its trivial. Its not. And you know what? UND will lose its appeal because of this fact. Not because it doesn't have enough Indian programs on campus, or not because only 4% of the student population on campus is Native, no it will lose because the SIOUX tribes are against UND's use of the name/logo. Plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 UND will lose its appeal because of this fact. You seem to believe that when that happens, it will be the end of everything and a victory for you. It won't be the end of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 There are bigger issues here, bigger than a moniker and logo, bigger than UND, bigger than the beloved Sioux Nations, bigger than North Dakota. Let me hit y'all with some of the issues here: - a sub-committee within an organization UND belongs to is trying to usurp its own by-laws and constitution to ramrod things down the member's throats. That's great if you're the rodder, crappy if you're the roddee. For example, GK, you wouldn't like it if all tribal policy came solely from the tribal secretary and not the chair and full council, would you? You have to stand up and fight those fights (usurped by-laws) in any organization when it happens. - "the best little monopoly in America" (BusinessWeek On-line, Dec. 9, 2002) is attempting to put illegal restraints on trade in almost sure violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. - an organization that UND belongs to, which has clearly defined process for reviews, keeps changing the process at their own whims. Let's put this into simpler terms: How frustrated would anyone be if your department or major kept changing, moving, or adding to the graduation requirements on you? An organization that does that, without following legislated process to make changes within the organization, must be stood up to and challenged. - UND was called "hostile and abusive." It's not the case and must be challenged. What else would you expect. - There's a difference between "hostile and abusive" and "offensive". Nobody has clearly set the standards within the NCAA. (See "moving target" above) By the standard that really matters (the courts) UND isn't "hostile and abusive." Personally, I think UND has been slandered by the NCAA using those words. - (quoting UND's 35 page response) "Should any group be given the exclusive right to control the image of their ancestors? ... . Giving ethnic groups a proprietary right over historical images is a principle which should be rejected outright." Like I said before, if this alleged "exclusive right" did exist soon only Democrats could tell us about Clinton and only Republicans tell us about Bush. Better yet, only Nazis and Aryans about Nazis and Aryans. I reject the "exclusive right" notion; I favor the First Amendment. - UND holds the legal rights on the moniker "Fighting Sioux" and on the Ben Brien artwork used as a logo. All of that is intellectual property. If the NCAA forces this they've devalued UND's intellectual property. That's damage. Damage is recoverable. - the NCAA is trying to justify their position using suspect (at best) data. If there is such a thing as due process anywhere, all of the data used in making a decision should be available and have been reviewed (thoroughly, by disinterested parties). This isn't the case in this matter. The NCAA is using unpublished studies (not publicly reviewed), studies that don't report process and method, key in any study, as a basis. This is wrong and most likely won't stand a test in a court room. - and finally, the NCAA created a "namesake tribe" exemption (even though the research they seem to love to cite says that shouldn't matter) but continues to refuse to accept Spirit Lake Tribe Resolution No. A05-01-041. That resolution is yet to be overridden or recinded by Spirit Lake Tribal Council (the only group that matters, as GK has told us). What we have here are some fundamental issues: - breech of contract (NCAA constitution is a contract with UND) - intellectual property rights - anti-trust (NCAA actions as a monopoly) - due process (following process, using reliable data and evidence to make decisions) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 What we have here are some fundamental issues: - breech of contract (NCAA constitution is a contract with UND) - intellectual property rights - anti-trust (NCAA actions as a monopoly) - due process (following process, using reliable data and evidence to make decisions) Very good synopsis. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Very good synopsis. Thank you. We're even (the ox thing). But now I think I owe someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 I think its crazy how much time y'all spend on this issue. It makes me all giddy inside know that in April, after completely picking apart the 2nd appeal, the NCAA will deny UND, again. This will no doubt be the dagger that puts this beast out of its misery. Yes, I know the "Sioux loving" people will try to honor the people they despise by wanting to take legal action, but this only make UND look even more ignorant of the fact that they are using a logo that should have been retired 30 years ago. I don't mind the fact that NCAA prolonged this decision until April because it gives UND the entire 05-06 year to prepare for "changes", very honorable and respectful of the NCAA, and it also gives everyone in here hope for at least a couple more months. But like I stated before, do you really think this issue will EVER go away, or that it will get better for "fans of the FS logo/nickname"? I honestly don't see how. Hetche to. 1. Uhm, here you are along with the rest of us. But your presence doesn't annoy me. Does give me a good laugh at times and other times makes me pity your inability to formulate a good defense in the face of the Name Supporters aggressive offense. 2. Until I read the rebuttal, I, too, fully expected the NC$$ to deny UND's second appeal. Now I don't know that that will actually happen. We'll have to wait and see. (Who the he!!, despises the Sioux? As far as I can tell you're the only one on this board, well mako and KTF too, who mentions hate, racist insults, etc.) 3. No one at UND is going to bend over and accept any 'dagger'. Read the rebuttal, the 'beast' is armed, pissed, and ready for whatever the NC$$ has in it's arsenal. 4. UND's use of the name and logo is honorable, respectful, and will not fall to the NC$$ or demands of Name Changers. 5. UND will not be preparing for any 'changes' if the 2nd appeal is denied. They'll be busy preparing to win a case against the NC$$ in federal court. 6. No one is going to accept being denied constitutional (U.S.A.'s and NC$$'s) rights. That would definitely not make things better for any institution with a NC$$ contract. With that in mind, the name and logo will keep things 'better' for 'fans of the FS logo/nickname. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 but anyways, I don't spend as much time on this issue as other "Jo"shmo's I know GK, I thought I was on your 'ignore button'? But I knew all along you really love me and wouldn't stay away for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakotadan Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 When I bring up the fact that the SIOUX nation does not want you to use the FS name/logo, its because it is a very powerful and commanding fact that needs to be addressed. Not so very powerful and commanding as this fact - UND holds the legal rights on the moniker "Fighting Sioux" and on the Ben Brien artwork used as a logo. All of that is intellectual property. If the NCAA forces this they've devalued UND's intellectual property. That's damage. Damage is recoverable. I can just imagine UND's finance people and lawyers, singing, 'I'm in the money.' Recent judgments againt the NC$$ have been in the tens of MILLIONS of dollars. Think of all the good that money could do for ALL the students at UND. I say, 'Bring it on Myles. I want my kids' tuitions lowered, more support services for all students, AND our own football arena (just getting greedy here)! Oh and, 'Vaya con Dios!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Not so very powerful and commanding as this fact I can just imagine UND's finance people and lawyers, singing, 'I'm in the money.' Recent judgments againt the NC$$ have been in the tens of MILLIONS of dollars. Think of all the good that money could do for ALL the students at UND. I say, 'Bring it on Myles. I want my kids' tuitions lowered, more support services for all students, AND our own football arena (just getting greedy here)! Oh and, 'Vaya con Dios!' Hmmm Damage is recoverable. Maybe we could use the money we get off of this landmark to fund a move to DI? Like... 100% of the move is covered by the NCAA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Hmmm Damage is recoverable. Maybe we could use the money we get off of this landmark to fund a move to DI? Like... 100% of the move is covered by the NCAA What makes the finances all the more interesting is that damages get tripled in the case of an antritrust violation. What would be UND's compensation from the NCAA for 3 times the negative publicity value in the New York Times, Washington Post, and on Nightline for falsely representing UND as hostile and abusive? UND Shopping list: 1. Trust fund for DI scholarships 2. Indoor practice facility 3. American Indian Museum / Student center 4. Biolab 5. other ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aff Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 What makes the finances all the more interesting is that damages get tripled in the case of an antritrust violation. What would be UND's compensation from the NCAA for 3 times the negative publicity value in the New York Times, Washington Post, and on Nightline for falsely representing UND as hostile and abusive? UND Shopping list: 1. Trust fund for DI scholarships 2. Indoor practice facility 3. American Indian Museum / Student center 4. Biolab 5. other ? You guys haven't even beat the name issue yet, and you're already discussing uses for $100 million worth of projects that are going to be funded by the NCAA. Incredible. You would NEVER win an antitrust / liable suit against the NCAA, unless you know something that the Marquette law students / teachers along with the other scores of teams that have changed their names couldn't figure out, but I guess I shouldn't intrude with reality for you guys. My advice: Work on winning the name issue. If UND can get out of that unscathed they should thank their lucky stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 You guys haven't even beat the name issue yet, and you're already discussing uses for $100 million worth of projects that are going to be funded by the NCAA. Incredible. You would NEVER win an antitrust / liable suit against the NCAA, unless you know something that the Marquette law students / teachers along with the other scores of teams that have changed their names couldn't figure out, but I guess I shouldn't intrude with reality for you guys. My advice: Work on winning the name issue. If UND can get out of that unscathed they should thank their lucky stars. Thanks for the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aff Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Thanks for the advice. Sorry PCM, I don't know how I could be so rediculous. Is there going to be a meeting soon about how this defamation money is going to be spent? My idea is to use it to use it lure Phil Jackson away from the Lakers, then use UND's basketball success to join either the Big 10 or Big 12. We can decide between the two by seeing which one wants to give UND the most money for the honor of joining their conference. I heard from a reliable source that the big 12 has already agreed to give UND all of the basketball tournament revenues for the next 10 years, and half the BCS bid money that comes into the school. And to think that awhile ago people were woried about keeping our mascot. What a bunch of idiots. I mean it was so blatantly obvious that we would win a defamation suit against the NCAA over that. Just look at all of the newspaper articles discussing how the defamation suits would play out in court. Apparently some people in "the main stream" have never heard of such a law suit and think that we probably are going to lose alumni dollars based on what happens with our naming issues, but here in fighting sioux land we know that we are going to make millions off of this. I credit the foward thinking of the new AD for this move, obviously planned ahead of time to get us into the Big 12. HAPPY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeftyZL Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Thanks for the sarcasm AFF....apparently you can't understand sarcasm or people "wishfully" thinking nowadays....I think everyone on here is realistic about what will happen. Heck, everyone will be happy if/when we are allowed to keep our name. Maybe you just missed the sarcasm in PCM's post, maybe not. But I'm pretty sure it was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmrg74 Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 UND Shopping list: 1. Trust fund for DI scholarships 2. Indoor practice facility 3. American Indian Museum / Student center 4. Biolab 5. other ? Two-ply Toilet paper in every public bathroom at the university and their athletic facilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-cia Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 You guys haven't even beat the name issue yet, and you're already discussing uses for $100 million worth of projects that are going to be funded by the NCAA. Incredible. You would NEVER win an antitrust / liable suit against the NCAA, unless you know something that the Marquette law students / teachers along with the other scores of teams that have changed their names couldn't figure out, but I guess I shouldn't intrude with reality for you guys. My advice: Work on winning the name issue. If UND can get out of that unscathed they should thank their lucky stars. Geeze, aff, lighten up. What's wrong with a little 'jocularity' (thanks, Sicatoka), high hopes, wishful thinking and sarcasm! Having read UND's rebuttal, I have confidence in the points of law that it referenced and in the legal team (I don't know if they have law students/teachers on board but they do have practicing lawyers) that UND has working on it. Not having read Marquette LAW STUDENTS/TEACHERS reviews, I can't comment on them. Why have other schools been so quick to roll over? Don't know. Maybe they lack the passion, and the drive to fight for their legal rights that UND has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 You would NEVER win an antitrust / liable suit against the NCAA, unless you know something that the Marquette law students / teachers along with the other scores of teams that have changed their names couldn't figure out, but I guess I shouldn't intrude with reality for you guys. Yes, and judging by the quality of UND's rebuttal, and the issues raised therein, I seriously doubt it was written by anybody from Milwaukee. BTW: What's a "liable" suit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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