UND's DI review committee

[The Sicatoka]

IMO, SCSU is only going to make a DI move IF UND leaves the NCC.

I won't disagree. But they dared say "DI" aloud in St. Cloud which was truly surprising. And that same pressure would also be felt in Vermillion. And of course "if SCSU can do it" the folks in Duluth and Mankato will say ....

Honestly, if the NCC dominos fell that way, I'd see Augie to the NSIC and UNO to the MIAA (backfilling Missouri-Rolla's spot) and the rest taking a shot at DI-AA. (I said "shot." Success is a whole other matter.) Then again, UNO might look at a non-conference, all bus trip, BB schedule that could easily include Creighton, Drake, UNI, Iowa, Iowa State, and "Big Red".

It's going to get more confusing before it gets clearer.

[DamStrait]

Then you, DamStrait, have no common sense at all.

Wow, skippy, guess you really told me. Got some advice for ya: People that live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. You come on to this board with your back handed comments towards UND, and then wonder why some may be less than completely pleasant when responding to you. Are you really THAT obtuse?

Please tell me, since you are quite confident in your statement, which current NCC schools will be going DI and when they will announce their decision to do so.

Assuming SDSU and NDSU would join, which they might do in the short term (I hope you would agree that any school would immediately abandon the conference given the offer of any other conference), which other schools would move?

(You need 5)

1. UND

2.

3.

4.

5.

As mentioned previously (and just above by UND92, 96), if UND does move then all the remaining members will have to decide what to do. Already the conference has had to go all the way to WA for associate members in football. They can rob from ths NSIC (maybe, if any would be interested) but it would result in a weakened NCC. I could see any of the following determining that the least undesirable option (should UND leave the NCC) would be joining a new DIAA NCC (in no particular order): SCSU, 'kato, UMD, NDSU, SDSU, UNO, USD, maybe even CSP.

Also, even if UND were to drop golf, do you think if that were the deciding criterion in order to join the BSC (I don't think they want us though, actually), that it couldn't be added at that time? With Ray Richards already in existence, I just don't think the program startup costs would be at all significant. How's that for common sense?

[IowaBison]

Yep, that makes perfect sense!?! Eliminate a sport that UND will almost certainly need to sponsor for conference affiliation.

Also, I enjoy the inclusion of CSP on your DI NCC list, they spend how much on athletics?

[The Sicatoka]

Also, I enjoy the inclusion of CSP on your DI NCC list, they spend how much on athletics?

The M-SP area non-NCC school with the wherewithall (is that a word?) to make a jump to a potential DI-AA NCC would be St. Thomas (long before C-SP).

[DamStrait]

Yep, that makes perfect sense!?! Eliminate a sport that UND will almost certainly need to sponsor for conference affiliation.

...sigh...why do I bother? 1. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT IS CONVINCED IT IS "ALMOST CERTAINLY" NECESSARY. 2. STARTUP COSTS FOR REINSTATING IT (IF NECESSARY) ARE LOW. Are you illiterate as well as obtuse?

Also, I enjoy the inclusion of CSP on your DI NCC list, they spend how much on athletics?

I list eight when you say I need four, and then you question the only one of the eight I qualify? I guess if you derive that much enjoyment out of being a jackass, there is nothing anyone can do or say that will bring about your improvement. It's obvious I've underestimated just how obtuse you really are.

Just go away. I'm done responding to your drivel, as your only intent is not a reasonable, intelligent discussion, but only to make snide comments, camouflaged in 'who me?' feigned innocence.

[DamStrait]

The M-SP area non-NCC school with the wherewithall (is that a word?) to make a jump to a potential DI-AA NCC would be St. Thomas (long before C-SP).

Yes, thank you Sica, that is who I meant, not CSP. My bad, hey, I got the town right anyway.

[IowaBison]

...sigh...why do I bother? 1. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT IS CONVINCED IT IS "ALMOST CERTAINLY" NECESSARY. 2. STARTUP COSTS FOR REINSTATING IT (IF NECESSARY) ARE LOW. Are you illiterate as well as obtuse?

I list eight when you say I need four, and then you question the only one of the eight I qualify? I guess if you derive that much enjoyment out of being a jackass, there is nothing anyone can do or say that will bring about your improvement. It's obvious I've underestimated just how obtuse you really are.

Just go away. I'm done responding to your drivel, as your only intent is not a reasonable, intelligent discussion, but only to make snide comments, camouflaged in 'who me?' feigned innocence.

(DamStraight-Feel free to ignore this post)

If you are so sure of your brilliance, why don't you run your ideas by Bunning?

Please list any conference scenario where golf doesn't make sense for UND? Even if a DI NCC materialized it would likely require a minimum number of male sports, even at the height of riduculousness I'd imagine they would mandate at least 5 (as would membership in the Mid-Con and of course the Big Sky requires golf). I can't think of many non-revenue sports which are less expensive than golf.

Just because it would be possible to drop and then reinstate golf, even at 'low cost'. That doesn't make any sense. You're going to tell a group of kids and a coach to get packing, only to try to reestablish a program later? It seems like you are grabbing at straws just so you can support your previous statements.

I question any NCC or NSIC school moving up, the inclusion of CSP was utterly ridiculous. Your ability to name a number of current NCC members doesn't prove much of anything, let alone any institution's interest or ability to sponsor division I athletics.

Please tell what above or in any previous posts that is unreasonable?

[Jamestown]

I think these figures demonstrate that a Division I move by UND isn't the huge leap that many naysayers make it out to be. We would be competitive right away with division I mid- majors in women's basketball and would soon be in men's basketball. Football would be competive at the I-AA level immediately. We need to do this as soon as possible before NDSU gets too far ahead of us. The fact is if we continue to play with the UMC- Crookstons and UMary's of the world, while they're playing Montana it's only a matter of time before the casual ND sports fan starts placing the quality of their athletic program ahead of ours. As a former Sioux athlete who was a part of teams that routinely beat the Bison this thought truly bothers me. Moving up is in UND's best interest and if we continue to remain Division II we almost certainly will begin to sacrifice the success of our revenue sports (football, BB), so that our non- revenue ones can prosper against marginal competition.

The separation between the Bison and Sioux programs has been and will continue to widen amoung the fans of the region and state. Statewide TV coverage of Bison football against Montana St. at the same time UND is playing Duluth. Local sportscasts showing the Bison mens basketball score against Kansas St. and then the UND score against Minot St. The top instate football recruit signing with the Bison even though all of the factors were in UNDs favor. Just a few examples to show that the separation between the athletic programs of these two fine institutions is real.

[bincitysioux]

The separation between the Bison and Sioux programs has been and will continue to widen amoung the fans of the region and state. Statewide TV coverage of Bison football against Montana St. at the same time UND is playing Duluth. Local sportscasts showing the Bison mens basketball score against Kansas St. and then the UND score against Minot St. The top instate football recruit signing with the Bison even though all of the factors were in UNDs favor. Just a few examples to show that the separation between the athletic programs of these two fine institutions is real.

UND football had four television broadcasts this year. NDSU's game with their presidentially mandated "rival" wasn't even on TV. I believe there is even a thread on Bisonville.com discussing how unhappy NDSU fans are that UND seems to get just as much if not more media coverage both in Fargo let alone throughout the state. I agree about the top ND football recruit, and I think that will be more common place as long as NDSU competes in a higher division. UND's men's basketball program is just simply in disarray. It is a down year, and not necessarily an indication of a huge gap between the programs. UND won 20 games last year. 4 years ago NDSU went 11-15 and finished 8th in the conference, that was a down year. That is the type of year UND is having.

[The Sicatoka]

If you are so sure of your brilliance, why don't you run your ideas by Bunning?

Firstly, it is Buning. Secondly, I can't speak for others, but I've put the word "lacrosse" and the thoughts of dropping baseball and golf past Mr. Buning (and others in key positions at UND).

Please list any conference scenario where golf doesn't make sense for UND?

Can't the same be said of swimming for about any conference (save the Big Sky)? (Or do we not want to talk swimming because NDSU doesn't have teams and most nearby DI conferences sponsor swimming?)

Under the counting rules for sports for DI, UND currently has 20 sports:

M(9): FB, BB, hockey, golf, baseball, S&D, CC, indoor track, outdoor track.

W(11): BB, hockey, golf, soccer, VB, softball, tennis, S&D, CC, indoor track, outdoor track.

The DI rules only mandate 6M and 8W sports. The key is to not drop "track" (which gets you CC, indoor, and outdoor teams counting for "3" teams per sex relatively cheap). Beyond that, personally, I'd say go with what makes fiscal and competitive sense.

And again, UND can't control potential conference affiliation requirements. UND can only control what is its to control.

Edited January 5, 2006 by The Sicatoka

[IowaBison]

Can't the same be said of swimming for about any conference (save the Big Sky)? (Or do we not want to talk swimming because NDSU doesn't have teams and most nearby DI conferences sponsor swimming?)

I was making the assumption that golf is less expensive than swimming and diving.

Also no conference that the Bison might join require it (Big Sky, Mid-Con, the hypothetical NCC).

Beyond that, personally, I'd say go with what makes fiscal and competitive sense.

And ignore the conference question altogether?

And again, UND can't control potential conference affiliation requirements. UND can only control what is its to control.

I agree with that completely, but does that mean that the University should ignore the relative necessity of conference affiliation?

[The Sicatoka]

.... but does that mean that the University should ignore the relative necessity of conference affiliation?

No, but which conference? All we have here is hypotheticals! Heck, we could dream up a conference that could require lacrosse if we really wanted to.

And would you really want to join a conference where golf, or even swimming, (not the revenue sports) is the deal-breaker?

You can't control hypothetical bids to hypothetical conferences. You can control what's yours to control.

PS - The NCC and Mid-Con sponsor swimming, but don't require it for membership. What an interesting concept: sponsor, not require.

Edited January 5, 2006 by The Sicatoka

[IowaBison]

But the NCC and Mid-Con require a minimum number of sports by gender. As golf is relatively inexpensive ($16,000 according to numbers previously in this thread (mens)), why would the University ax it? That fits into your fiscal category, Sikatoka.

Also, I think that NDSU would add/eliminate any sport to get into a conference right about now.

[The Sicatoka]

Also, I think that NDSU would add/eliminate any sport to get into a conference right about now.

I looked at the NCC and the five nearest DI (A or AA or AAA) conferences: Big 10, Big Sky, MAC, Missouri Valley, MidCon. What'd I find?

All sponsor:

M: BB, golf, CC, I Tr, O Tr.

W: BB, golf, CC, I Tr, O Tr, Soc, Tennis, VB

Note: UND fits all of those perfectly. NDSU has no W Tennis.

All but the BSC sponsor:

M: baseball, swim

W: softball, swim

Note: UND fits all that perfectly. NDSU has no swim teams.

All but the NCC sponsor M tennis.

Note: That fits neither UND or NDSU.

If somebody is worried about "conference", not having any tennis or swimming (including an Olympic pool) seems to be the bigger issue than fans on a chat board tossing about the notion of maybe dropping M/W golf.

As far as fiscal sense, golf is cheap, but it's also sure red ink: no gate.

On a personal note, I believe this "minimum number of sports" concept is crazy. How about sports departments that play what they and the fans can and will support.

[coachdags]

You guys are missing the most important of Points.......?

WHERE ARE WE GOING TO GET THE MONEY???

There are alot of good fits,Conferences we can make or join....HOW ARE WE GOING TO SUPPORT DIV1...?

We will have to at least Double our current Budget....That by the way lost money again last year....with a 4 year old FREE REA?

[Cratter]

You guys are missing the most important of Points.......?

WHERE ARE WE GOING TO GET THE MONEY???

There are alot of good fits,Conferences we can make or join....HOW ARE WE GOING TO SUPPORT DIV1...?

I think your missing the important point..

And I have possed the question a thousand times, where do other schools get the money? If they can do it so can UND.

I am willing to bet there are at least 5 other current AA schools that are no better off financially than UND currently is.

Lets cut the bull...UND will be Division I fairly soon. Whether you or I want it to be.

[coachdags]

good luck then ...UND....i give between 14-15 thousand a year to the UND athletic department and alumni,of which i am not.....i am tapped out....no more....i hope everyone else can step up...?

[dlsiouxfan]

UND may have to move up to Division I if they wish to make money. With football now apparently running into the same recruiting problems that have plagued the men's basketball team, we're now faced with the possibility of the casual ND sports fan writing off UND athletics as inferior to NDSU's. If attendance starts dropping in the Alerus as casual fans start heading south to watch NDSU play Montana as we play Mesa State the athletic department will be even further in the red. Kupchella needs to stop sitting on his hands on this, the committee better recommend a Division I move or we'll have to settle for being second fiddle to the Bison on the ND sports scene for the next 10 years. Alumni dollars will be there to fund a D-I move and if we have to cut a few non- revenue sports to balance the budget so be it. The sacrifices will be well worth it.

[coachdags]

UND may have to move up to Division I if they wish to make money. With football now apparently running into the same recruiting problems that have plagued the men's basketball team, we're now faced with the possibility of the casual ND sports fan writing off UND athletics as inferior to NDSU's. If attendance starts dropping in the Alerus as casual fans start heading south to watch NDSU play Montana as we play Mesa State the athletic department will be even further in the red. Kupchella needs to stop sitting on his hands on this, the committee better recommend a Division I move or we'll have to settle for being second fiddle to the Bison on the ND sports scene for the next 10 years. Alumni dollars will be there to fund a D-I move and if we have to cut a few non- revenue sports to balance the budget so be it. The sacrifices will be well worth it.

I hope everyone realizes the cost of such a move?...I really do not buy the Watch the Bison arguement, beacause I know of no one who does that?, A Sioux Fan is a Sioux Fan...They were not streaming to Fargo tonite to catch NDSU men play Utah Valley State,,I guessing Women vs Saginaw Valley Drew around the same...Div1 Men vs Div2 women..?

Coaches Salaries,Support Staff,Administration,Travel, Game GTD's,Officials,all these costs go up....

So Attendance, and Ticket prices will have to...just to keep are heads above water..

Not to Mention the Increase is Scholarships, and Gender equity dollars to try and make us competative?

[GCWaters]

UND may have to move up to Division I if they wish to make money.

Something that a number of people, including me, have tossed around is the frozen four monies. I can't find a reliable estimate of how much is distributed, though. ESPN has an article stating that from '81 to '91 the tourney dispersed an average of $100,000 per year to the tournament teams, with the highest year being about $650,000 to the field of 12. Since then, though, they've changed the format, and the monies don't go to the teams but to the D1 conferences that each belongs to.

So, does anyone know how much is being distributed now? I know the revenues have gone up greatly in the last few years....

[dakotadan]

I have never bought into the "we should go DI cause NDSU did". I don't think very many people consider that as any sort of valid argument for DI. It simply makes UND fans look jealous, envious, and ignorant.

I am however concerned about our schedules in DII. Currently our non-conference schedules are filled with NSIC and DAC8 schools. This does not excite me at all. Next year, the NSIC will have 2 more conference members. NSIC members will play less non-conference games. This will cause all NCC schools to have even more trouble finding non-conference games. Does this mean we are going to see even more games with DAC8 members? This honestly worries me.

I feel that when the NCC was at 9 members, it was the best possible position for UND. We had a great conference schedule with just enough room for some good quality non-conference games. If we were in this same situation, I would not be promoting a move to DI. However things have changed greatly. We have lost 3 well known, fully funded, state-named schools from the conference. That creates alot more non-conference games that we have to fill. Unfortunately the schools that replaced games against UNC, NDSU, and SDSU are very low funded, unknown named schools. I do not want to see even more games with Minot State, Mayville State, Valley City State, etc. I don't remember us playing Dickinson State recently. Maybe we can get a few games with them too.

So now we are left looking for possible new members for the NCC. I think the addition of the Washington schools in FB was a good move. They seem like quality programs from decent sized, state named schools. Unfortunately this does not solve any of our scheduling problems in all of our other sports. So who are we going to try to convince to move to the NCC? Winona State is the name thrown around the most. I see two problems with this. 1. Why would Winona want to give up their status as one of the top schools in the NSIC? They receive an autobid in all sports when they win their conference. And to compete in the upper half of the NCC they would have to increase their schollarships, increase recruiting budgets, and most likely have more travel. And 2. Winona State does not excite me any more than playing DAC schools. So who else do we look at? The only other schools in the region that I would like to see are Northern Michigan and Michigan Tech. Are they possible? Who knows.

I am sorry for such a long post. But UND athletics have changed alot since 2000. We have began playing in some amazing new facilities. Unfortunately the quality of the teams we are playing against in these facilities has gone down.

[coachdags]

totally agree dakotadan.....

but are we going to be able to raise the money..?

as far as nonconference, why not spend some dollars to play teams in the gliac,miacc,rmac,and once in a while bring in, or go home and home with north alabama,kennisaw state,valdosta,bloomsburg...ect...there are over 250 div2 schools in america...

we do not have to play the dac 10, or naia,....maybe a top couple in the nsic, for regional purpose....

i would think the money would be alot less then a full div 1 schedule with 70-80% on the road like down south....?

[dakotadan]

as far as nonconference, why not spend some dollars to play teams in the gliac,miacc,rmac,and once in a while bring in, or go home and home with north alabama,kennisaw state,valdosta,bloomsburg...ect...there are over 250 div2 schools in america...

FYI: Kennesaw State University is now DI.

As far as the other teams mentioned, I don't know. Someone in the athletic department would have to answer that.

[BisonMav]

I hope everyone realizes the cost of such a move?...I really do not buy the Watch the Bison arguement, beacause I know of no one who does that?, A Sioux Fan is a Sioux Fan...

There will be more Alumni that become involved in UND athletics because of the DI move. The money will be a factor though as you have stated.

There are a few Sioux jackets and sweatshirts in the crowd at Bison football games.

[IowaBison]

I looked at the NCC and the five nearest DI (A or AA or AAA) conferences: Big 10, Big Sky, MAC, Missouri Valley, MidCon. What'd I find?

All sponsor:

M: BB, golf, CC, I Tr, O Tr.

W: BB, golf, CC, I Tr, O Tr, Soc, Tennis, VB

Note: UND fits all of those perfectly. NDSU has no W Tennis.

All but the BSC sponsor:

M: baseball, swim

W: softball, swim

Note: UND fits all that perfectly. NDSU has no swim teams.

All but the NCC sponsor M tennis.

Note: That fits neither UND or NDSU.

If somebody is worried about "conference", not having any tennis or swimming (including an Olympic pool) seems to be the bigger issue than fans on a chat board tossing about the notion of maybe dropping M/W golf.

As far as fiscal sense, golf is cheap, but it's also sure red ink: no gate.

On a personal note, I believe this "minimum number of sports" concept is crazy. How about sports departments that play what they and the fans can and will support.

But Sikatoka you know, as do I, that sponsor does not have the same definition as require.

The need for a minimum number of sports, in my opinion, is that it prevents schools from cherry picking sports which defeats the whole point of having a conference.