Spirit Lake withdraws support for logo

[kfah1]

Time to click the ignore button.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I second that motion...

GK has become that anti-thesis of the anti-Fighting Sioux name crowd. I'm beginning to think that GK is now only using this post as an outlet to attack and spew his/her hateful and ignorant beliefs against everyone who is not of his/her ilk.

Of course, maybe GK can become the leader of this "change the name" cult and end up pissing everyone he/she comes across and end up really showing everyone what he/she really stands for; thus only hurting those who really have a point to make.

I would think any rational Native American (or any one else for that matter) would look upon you as an embarrasment for the movement you claim to support and believe in.

Of course, you don't care... people like you normally don't. People like you normally lose in the end and never see real victory.

Time to click the ignore button...

[HockeyMom]

Turtle Mountain Tribal chair: UND has done 'a good job'

It appears that reports that Turtle Mountain would draft a resolution opposing UND's appeal were premature.

Yes, the Turtle Mountain tribe is Chippewa, but at least it's something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That made me smile.

[PCM]

KnowtheFacts,Sep 1 2005, 05:00 PM

I wasnt here at the time of the SBHE's decision but I know that there were things that happened in the background (because of leaked documents and such...) that were NOT public information. Anyway, I wasnt referring to that event. I was referring to the event that I recommended.

North Dakota has an open meetings law. Therefore, the meeting you recommended would have to be open to the public. There's no way around it.

Dont you think that if Kupchella cant get the easy facts straight then he isnt going to get the hard ones right either?

I don't know that he doesn't have his facts straight. I know that you have your version of how and why and when the Sioux name was adopted. It doesn't jibe with everything I know. And there's a possibility that Kupchella is referring to some information that neither of us has seen. Suffice it to say that there a lot on the history of the name that's open to interpretation. I still don't really see how it matters that much.

REA dictates what the Athletic Department does and doesnt do in regards to hockey from all I have heard.

This is an entirely different issue from what you originally stated, which was that "officials at REA dictate how we run our school." I don't see what it has to do with this discussion.

Thats why Students are so pissed off about hockey tickets every year....

Which has what to do with the Sioux name issue or how American Indian students are treated on campus?

PLUS REA announced they weren't covering the logos no matter what - before UND/Kupchella ever made a statement to that effect.

I don't think so. As I recall, Kupchella said during his Aug. 12 news conference that he couldn't envision covering up the logos at the REA. I hadn't heard anyone from UND or the REA say anything like that before that date. If you have a source that says otherwise, I'd like to see it.

They can talk about other things too, but we are talking about the logo in here.

That's what I thought we were discussing, too, but you're dragging in other subjects that have little or nothing to do with the name and logo.

Here is the American Indian Student Services Report to the NCAA.  Sorry I dont have the exact spot, but it states a few times that AISS was not consulted before a response was drafted.  Then when they were consulted, their recommendations were not addressed in the final report.

I've read and heard all about that. I've also thoroughly read the minority report. To be perfectly honest, parts of it very insulting to those of us on campus who have worked hard in an Indian-related program to benefit Native Americans on campus and in other parts of the state. It's difficult to see something in which I take great pride being discussed as if it's insignificant or doesn't matter. I hope you can understand my perspective.

As I read this report, I get the distinct impression that the authors feel that any meeting held with the administration in which the nickname issue isn't up for discussion is essentially a meaningless meeting. Am I wrong about that impression?

This isnt about a chip on my shoulder.  Im not accusing all of you of being the person who yelled the racial slur.  I am trying to say that it does happen.  And I know that it will happen whether the name is changed or not. 

And you should know that the vast majority of people in town and on campus in no way condone such behavior. If I saw anyone doing that, they'd hear about it. It's inexcuseable. That's why it pains me when I see accusations made that paint Grand Forks as a racist town or UND as a racist school. That doesn't mean that there is no racism, but I do strongly believe that such characterizations are grossly unfair.

Honestly I think that when the name is changed it will get worse, because people value the sanctity of their logo more than a human being.

It might get worse temporarily, but I don't think it will stay that way for long. There will be a few idiots who'd use the loss of the Sioux nickname as an excuse to do and say stupid things. Again, they will be in the minority. The vast majority of people around here won't put up with that behavior.

But FEAR is not a good reason to let the logo stay, neither is threatening to take away NA programming, and neither is harrassment.

I agree completely and have said so in previous posts. Fear and intimidation -- in any shape or form -- should not be a part of why the name is retained or changed.

I DO think that racism is not just obvious things.  While the obvious acts such as racial slurs and SIOUX-per dogs are easy to point out, the majority of racism is a very subtle thing.  Like the unspoken act of crossing the street when you see a group of dark-skinned individuals walking your way... Or a female holding her purse tighter as a black man walks by... an employee following a minority around the store while he or she shopping...

I'm sure you're right that we all do things that are biased or appear biased, sometimes without even thinking about it. However, you also have to admit that there are people who look for reasons to be offended and will cry racism simply because they interpret something in a way that was never intended. What can anyone do about that?

For example, I have a relative who's gay. She's very difficult to be around or to speak to because she's constantly interpreting what even her closest relatives say as being anti-gay or homophobic. She, of course, has every right to her hair-trigger sensitivity on gay issues. However, many of her relatives and former friends choose not to communicate with her or involve her in activities because she's so difficult to be around. It has nothing to do with her being gay and everything to do with how she treats the people who care most about her. It's sad, really. It doesn't have to be that way.

Thank you for the reasonable discussion. I enjoyed it.

[Goon]

Turtle Mountain Tribal chair: UND has done 'a good job'

It appears that reports that Turtle Mountain would draft a resolution opposing UND's appeal were premature.

Yes, the Turtle Mountain tribe is Chippewa, but at least it's something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hum, that is an interesting article. It appears that not all AI are against the name.

[Goon]

REA dictates what the Athletic Department does and doesnt do in regards to hockey from all I have heard.  Thats why Students are so pissed off about hockey tickets every year....  PLUS REA announced they weren't covering the logos no matter what - before UND/Kupchella ever made a statement to that effect.

I would like to see the documentation that backs up this claim. Any way you could post that on the web here so we can view it.

[dagies]

Turtle Mountain Tribal chair: UND has done 'a good job'

It appears that reports that Turtle Mountain would draft a resolution opposing UND's appeal were premature.

Yes, the Turtle Mountain tribe is Chippewa, but at least it's something.

"They have used it as an opportunity to promote awareness of the culture of all Indian nations, not just the Sioux," Davis said. "When racial or bigoted incidents occur it provides an opportunity for the UND community to eradicate this type of behavior in an educational setting.

NO! You MUST blame bigotry on the name. This man is SO misguided!

[cheppi]

LOL.....the term "rabbit choker" is used in our Indian community, which obviously you have no ties to, that signifies a Chippewa/Ojibway. If you take offense to that, and you want to compare it to calling someone on campus a "prairie Nigger" or a "dirty Indian, then you really need to spend more time in Indian country because there is a vast difference. I don't say anything behind anyones back. I'm not like those on campus that hide behind others. try me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How is that not meant to be derogatory/ racist in nature. If I were to say: in my community we call indians "prairie niggers"so its OK to do it elsewhere. This would immediately and rightly be labeled a racist notion and condemed by many. How can this be considered acceptable when you disparage a tribe that is not of your heritage? Please explain to us uneducated.

ps. I hope the anonymous threat of physical violence over the internet makes you feel like a big man.

[GrahamKracker]

[dakotadan]

[UND92,96]

According to a report on the WDAZ news tonight, the Spririt Lake tribal council delayed a vote on the resolution to oppose UND's use of the Fighting Sioux name until they can meet with Kupchella next week. According to the report, an informal vote was taken today, with two members voting to oppose UND's use of the name, and two voting not to oppose it. Presumably, the tribal chairperson would be the deciding vote. At least the door remains open to the Spirit Lake tribe offering some semblance of support for UND's continued use of the name and logo.

[HockeyMom]

According to a report on the WDAZ news tonight, the Spririt Lake tribal council delayed a vote on the resolution to oppose UND's use of the Fighting Sioux name until they can meet with Kupchella next week. According to the report, an informal vote was taken today, with two members voting to oppose UND's use of the name, and two voting not to oppose it. Presumably, the tribal chairperson would be the deciding vote. At least the door remains open to the Spirit Lake tribe offering some semblance of support for UND's continued use of the name and logo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's great news! At least they are talking about things and not just throwing support out of the window.

[Diggler]

Good job by UND and Kupchella. They had to have petitioned Spirit Lake for this to happen. Amazing what can happen when you talk.

[mikejm]

Good job by UND and Kupchella.  They had to have petitioned Spirit Lake for this to happen.  Amazing what can happen when you talk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And Diggler, I'm amazed at how intuitive and insightful you've been throughout this whole debate. I feel like I've watched you grow up right here on this forum.

[HockeyMom]

Reading through the appeal again that the University of North Dakota sent to the NCAA, I am really encouraged by this split vote, and by this part of the appeal:

"The Chair of the Spirit Lake Nation, Myra Pearson, was quoted in the newspaper here recently as saying that people on her reservation laugh about this issue, indicating that there are far more important issues to be addressed."

[PCM]

Good job by UND and Kupchella.

[dagies]

[Diggler]

Hey! I can be smart when I want to be! I just usually don't want to be!

[SiouxMeNow]

Hopefully UND Officials will be able to make the case this can be a mutually beneficial relationship. UND dropped the ball 5 years ago when the last big flap was going on by not following through on promises to build a relationship with the Spirit Lake tribe and that's primarily why they're wavering now - but they shouldn't think Lucy G's 40 year old display of "Sammy the Sioux" stuff is what's going on today! (and that's what SOME people here would have you believe!) It's not! - should not! - and will never be again! The Spirit Lake Tribal Council needs to listen to ALL their people and weigh the decision from that. They need to realize the REAL LOSERS in this whole thing would be themselves!

[Sioux-cia]

[Sioux-cia]

[HockeyMom]

I doubt that UND had to say anything after Turtle Mountain flipped. Ask yourself why Turtle Mountain might have flipped. Then ask yourself why some light bulbs suddenly came on at Spirit Lake. UND didn't have to lift the phone or a finger. That's the beauty of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did Turtle Mountain flip, or did Jesse Taken Alive misrepresent how the tribe felt to the news media?

[mksioux]

One issue I've been wondering about that I don't think has been addressed is the conditinos that Skip Longie referred to in his comments earlier in the week. He said there were a "string of conditions" that went along with Spirit Lake's permission to use the name. One of those conditions was to require all freshmen at UND to take a trip to the reservation.

My question is, where do these conditions come from? Were they written down? Was it a verbal understanding, and if so, between whom?

The resolution itself requires 1) zero tolerance on racist activity (which UND has done), and 2) to "begin the process of establishing a cultural awareness course for all students"

I have to think there are plenty of cultural awareness courses available for all students at UND. Did it mean a required course? Did it mean specific to American Indians? And if it is a required course, what does "begin the process of establishing" mean? All of these terms are quite subjective. And I see no mention in the resolutino for the other "string of conditions" that Mr. Longie was referring to, including the required trip to the reservation.

This is an honest question. I'm not saying there wasn't a separate agreement, I'm just curious as to what that was if it existed.

Another question I have with the 2000 resolution, is that Spirit Lake approved the nickname and the "present logo." The resolution passed in December 2000, before the teams started using the new Bennett Brien logo (that wasn't until October 2001, I believe). However, hadn't the new logo been introduced and approved as of December 2000? Which logo(s) does the resolution refer to?

[mksioux]

Here is the story on it from the GF Herald

Also, Friday, several members of the Spirit Lake Nation near Devils Lake were anticipating that the tribe's council would formally adopt a resolution of opposition against UND's nickname and logo, but one member of the council told the Herald at the end of a closed meeting that that did not happen.

Speaking on the condition of anonymity, the council member said that the issue only was discussed briefly and that nothing was decided. No formal votes were taken either, the council member said.

"We have a lot of other issues that needed to be discussed," the council member said.

The member said that the council likely would wait until it can visit with UND leaders before making a decision. Earlier in the week, a general assembly of tribe members showed strong disfavor for the nickname and logo, prompting leaders to consider signing the resolution.

[PCM]

Did Turtle Mountain flip, or did Jesse Taken Alive misrepresent how the tribe felt to the news media?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would assume that Jesse Taken Alive had at least some reason to believe that Turtle Mountain was with him. Maybe he assumed too much. Or maybe I'm assuming too much.

[PCM]

One issue I've been wondering about that I don't think has been addressed is the conditinos that Skip Longie referred to in his comments earlier in the week.  He said there were a "string of conditions" that went along with Spirit Lake's permission to use the name.  One of those conditions was to require all freshmen at UND to take a trip to the reservation.

My question is, where do these conditions come from?  Were they written down?  Was it a verbal understanding, and if so, between whom?

Those are good question. I've wondered about some of them myself. Operating strictly from memory, it seems to me that at least some of the things Longie mentioned happened around 1994 during Kendall Baker's tenure.

Exactly what UND agreed to do and what was verbal and what was in writing, I can't say. There must be stories in the Herald's and Dakota Student's archives about the conditions to which UND agreed.

Another question I have with the 2000 resolution, is that Spirit Lake approved the nickname and the "present logo."  The resolution passed in December 2000, before the teams started using the new Bennett Brien logo (that wasn't until October 2001, I believe).  However, hadn't the new logo been introduced and approved as of December 2000?  Which logo(s) does the resolution refer to?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, this is from memory, so I could be wrong. Kupchella became UND's president in 1999. Quite early into his tenure, he introduced the new Sioux logo designed by Bennett Brien. That created a storm of controversy. But I don't remember anyone saying that UND had broken a promise to use the geometric logo.

I also believe that the new logo became official well before October 2001, although it wasn't in widespread use until the new Ralph opened and the hockey team began wearing the new uniforms. I would guess that the logo referred to in the Spirit Lake resolution -- passed in December 2000 -- is the Brien logo because the resolution says it's in response to the controversy surrounding the logo change.

If I wanted to take the time and spend the money, I could go back into the Herald's archives and find the answers to these questions. It'd be even better if the Herald would do a story with a timeline of events to help us understand what Longie was referring to and what UND agreed to.