Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

IU post Knight haven't exactly been.... dominant or even...well... all that good.

We're getting far away from the point of this thread, but here's some thoughts from someone who's a bit interested in IU hoops, even though I'm about the farthest thing from a Hoosier fan that there is...

In the last few years of the Knight regime at Indiana, their basketball program was slipping. I am of the opinion that Hoosier basketball fans weren't happy with the way that Knight was shown the door, but OTOH they would have been even less happy had he stayed on as he wasn't going to retire gracefully from Indiana. So he became somewhat of a "martyr" there when he was let go.

Mike Davis, their next coach, was almost predestined to fail (as are

virtually

all coaches who directly follow a "legend"); and he did fail. But the real problem was Kelvin Sampson. He singlehandedly drove Indiana to depths previously unplumbed in Hoosier history: and the sad part is that he came in with the reputation as a cheater, he cheated and ignored some sanctions or safeguards and then he was finally taken out (loudly protesting his innocence all the way) when the rumblings became way too loud.

All of this has done nothing but make Knight even more of a revered figure in Hoosier land; but in this person's view the problem wasn't the firing of Knight but rather the rush to replace his success via a coach that was an unrepentant cheater.

Tom Crean will do a good job at Indiana. And additionally, he has a Bobby-like firey persona which appeals to the faithful. Something that's contributing to their downfall this year is that allegedly there was quite a bit of drug use last year and some of the people who transfered might have thought that Crean was going to crack down hard. That comes directly from the Hoosier superstar who jumped to the NBA after his freshman season.

And regarding Brand-more than a few IU fans say that he virtually trapped or baited Knight into getting himself fired. In my view that's stretching things, but some Hoosiers will believe that forever.

[Goon]

And regarding Brand-more than a few IU fans say that he virtually trapped or baited Knight into getting himself fired. In my view that's stretching things, but some Hoosiers will believe that forever.

That was what I remember from the situation.

[Herd]

The administration at liberal schools like Wisconsin choose a stand against playing teams with Indian mascots for two primary "public" reasons. The pressure to support the Indian tribes that are against the use of their nickname, and the pressure to support the NCAA who is against their use. There is also the money issues and conference affiliations which are real, but not something that you stand behind in a press conference.

Therefore, there is no "public" reason today for Wisconsin not to play Florida St. With both NCAA support and tribe support, what message would Wisconsin be sending? If you spoke out again playing FL St, instead of supporting the Indians tribes who support the name, you'd be insulting them.

Wisconsin's position toward Florida St. is consistent with both NCAA and tribe positions. Florida St. is no longer a Cause for liberal schools like Wisconsin. I don't see WI's position as hipicritical as some suggest. The tribe's position speaks for itself.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I don't see WI's position as hipicritical as some suggest. The tribe's position speaks for itself.

Well, the Seminole tribe has never had a position against the use of their name.

BUT

, the original Wisconsin statement wasn't specific to FSU. The exceptions written in by Wisconsin were for postseason play and conference play. That implies that even

before

the NCAA committee got involved, if somehow the Badgers had been invited to a bowl to play the Savages, the Tribe or the Utes they would have done it. Sorry, I see that as hypocritical on its face.

And none of the exceptions to their policy covers the ACC/Big Ten Challenge in basketball. Yet, they played Florida State. Sure, it was after the NCAA took them off the S-list, but if you're against the symbolism but make exceptions if a majority of "owners" of that symbolism give you permission: well, to me that's simply a case of not standing behind your words.

(FWLIW, they'll gladly play the Aztecs today, anytime and any place.

No need for permission, as the descendants of the Aztecs are across a border and in a country that doesn't give them as much political power as the US does. )

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

That was what I remember from the situation.

I guess the way I look at is that Brand arrived at Indiana to find that someone had already hired a very popular man-eating tiger as their head coach. Now I personally don't think you can just talk to a tiger and get him to go on a vegetarian diet; but sooner or later, once that tiger has done enough damage it's time to get rid of him. I don't see Brand as baiting Knight, but finally saying "enough is enough".

One other thing I will say: if at any time within the last say, 10-15 years of Knight's regime you had a player say "I didn't know what I was getting into" I would say that player is so dumb he shouldn't be at any college. The same cannot be said for the average student at IU, nor the other employees of Indiana basketball.

[Herd]

Well, the Seminole tribe has never had a position against the use of their name.

BUT

, the original Wisconsin statement wasn't specific to FSU. The exceptions written in by Wisconsin were for postseason play and conference play. That implies that even

before

the NCAA committee got involved, if somehow the Badgers had been invited to a bowl to play the Savages, the Tribe or the Utes they would have done it. Sorry, I see that as hypocritical on its face.

And none of the exceptions to their policy covers the ACC/Big Ten Challenge in basketball. Yet, they played Florida State. Sure, it was after the NCAA took them off the S-list, but if you're against the symbolism but make exceptions if a majority of "owners" of that symbolism give you permission: well, to me that's simply a case of not standing behind your words.

(FWLIW, they'll gladly play the Aztecs today, anytime and any place.

No need for permission, as the descendants of the Aztecs are across a border and in a country that doesn't give them as much political power as the US does. )

Schools like Wisconsin don't take their stand for the hell of it. They do it because there are Indian tribes who are outspoken against the use of the nicknames, and liberal schools like Wisky jump on board in support of that stand.

All I am saying, the situation at FSU is diffused. There is no Wisconsin cause at FSU anymore. The list of schools w/o tribal support is getting small. This whole thing is less of an issue today at Wisconsin for a reason.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Schools like Wisconsin don't take their stand for the hell of it. They do it because there are Indian tribes who are outspoken against the use of the nicknames, and liberal schools like Wisky jump on board in support of that stand.

Well I'm not sure I can think of a school that isn't considered "liberal".

But if they're going to make a stand, then make a stand and stick to it. Don't want to play "Indian nickname" schools? Fine, but stick to that rule 365 days a year. And for that matter, don't limit it to Indians: all ethnicities should be equal.

I don't think Wisconsin does that (or ever did that). All the spine of a jellyfish IMHO.

And IMHO, there never was a situation

AT

Florida State. The situation was at their opponents. FSU and Utah had a very strong argument even before the NCAA committee involved themselves in issues they didn't understand. And ironically, IMHO by placing FSU on the S-list the NCAA just may have made the support FSU gets from the Seminole tribe that much stronger.

[SoCalSiouxFan]

Here is a reprint of an older article in the Los Angeles Times related to the nickname issue. http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jul/07/ma...e/tm-nicknames7

Getting worked up over school nicknames is a lot of wasted energy, a futile exercise in abstraction that has nothing to do with real-life discrimination against categories of people.

[TheGreatSiouxNation]

Here is a reprint of an older article in the Los Angeles Times related to the nickname issue. http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jul/07/ma...e/tm-nicknames7

Today's Devils Lake Journal has a pretty good article on the Sioux name. devilslakejournal.com Finally a vote by the people without the influence by the media.

[GeauxSioux]

Linky

Several members of the Spirit Lake met at the Blue Building in Fort Totten yesterday to discuss UND's Fighting Sioux nickname. The group, who is in favor of keeping the name, will be proposing a vote to the Tribal Council next week.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

Linky

Well that looks like a good sign to me.

[redwing77]

Well that looks like a good sign to me.

Too little too late.

I think the vote will either have massive flaws or, more likely, not be cast at all.

Who cares.

I expect, if a vote is cast, to find it overwhelmingly in favor of the name change... the numbers won't lie because most of the people who will show up to vote will be those who are against it. The rest will be too busy working to care.

Really, I just say ride it out until the whole thing expires and then change the name.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I think the vote will either have massive flaws or, more likely, not be cast at all.

...

I expect, if a vote is cast, to find it overwhelmingly in favor of the name change... the numbers won't lie because most of the people who will show up to vote will be those who are against it. The rest will be too busy working to care.

Really, I just say ride it out until the whole thing expires and then change the name.

I'm going the other way. I think many people here have talked about how unfair it is

not

to have a vote, that a few people are denying the wishes of the many. Yes, some sort of "vote fraud" may occur; or only those motivated one way may turn out on election day. And certainly those are things you run into in any election. But in spite of all that, I'd say let the vote take place. And if there are "massive flaws" then hopefully they will be reported as such and discussed openly.

And this group's proposal now stands as a motion for a vote: if it doesn't come off, someone from the leadership should be asked to explain.

I will agree with the idea to use all of the time though. I hope that a solution can be reached, but it looks as if it won't be quick.

A few quotes from the article:

"...If someone asks me about my tribe, I say I am Dakotah. I

[redwing77]

How can a vote be certified legit?

They don't trust third parties and they've had a history of alterring things including laws and policies to suit their needs.

So maybe the vote will indeed happen... and more than likely it will be what the tribal leaders will want.

[Chewey]

I agree completely with the group. Let it be put to a vote. I think there are a lot of natives who support the name, as this group does. If this group took enough time to meet publicly about it and cared enough to speak openly about it to the press, I think that speaks volumes. Finally, we have media coverage of what is likely the majority reservation viewpoint. I commend this group. They see that the name is not intended to be disrespectful at all and they see that much good can come out of working with the school.

Regardless of anyone's view concerning the outcome, this is a positive. I don't see where the Herald reported this. I am sure if a group had met publicly about changing the name, the Herald would have been all over it. Forum Communications is probably 2 steps away from bankruptcy and it's fishwraps like the Herald that will get FC there.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

How can a vote be certified legit?

They don't trust third parties and they've had a history of alterring things including laws and policies to suit their needs.

So maybe the vote will indeed happen... and more than likely it will be what the tribal leaders will want.

If I'm reading this the right way, you seem to be saying that the tribal governments are pretty much like Iraq under Saddam. Or maybe Cuba or Venezuela. (Or the City of Chicago for that matter.

)

I don't know very much about the way the governments of the tribes operate, so for all I know you could be right on. But regardless, I'm still going to say that

holding

an election is better than

not holding

an election.

If the vote turns out to be tainted, so be it: as long as the election conditions are no better or worse than any other on the reservations, the common people have no one to complain to IMHO.

Let's say the vote turns out to show that the majority of the tribe members do NOT object to the name Sioux. In that case, do you think the leaders will try to declare the vote tainted? And if so, won't that lead to some rigorous oversight of a revote, and/or some rigorous oversight of every vote on the reservations?

I commend this group. They see that the name is not intended to be disrespectful at all and they see that much good can come out of working with the school.

Exactly-and in that order too! They start with the idea that the nickname isn't meant to denigrate: it was chosen to evoke the ideals of bravery, honor, valor, the spirit of healthy competition and never giving up. Every team chooses a nickname that way! And then this committee goes on to propose some good things that can occur as long as they work together with the University.

As many have noted, it's a start; the first time (AFAIK) that this has even been proposed. There may be a lot of work to be done, but IMHO its quite a step in the right direction.

[redwing77]

Let's say the vote turns out to show that the majority of the tribe members do NOT object to the name Sioux. In that case, do you think the leaders will try to declare the vote tainted? And if so, won't that lead to some rigorous oversight of a revote, and/or some rigorous oversight of every vote on the reservations?

Do I expect that?

I'd be SHOCKED if they didn't say that.

I just wonder if they'll wait for a recount before declaring it or will they just wait until 1 minute past the vote tally counting to declare a misvote.

[Goon]

I agree completely with the group. Let it be put to a vote. I think there are a lot of natives who support the name, as this group does. If this group took enough time to meet publicly about it and cared enough to speak openly about it to the press, I think that speaks volumes. Finally, we have media coverage of what is likely the majority reservation viewpoint. I commend this group. They see that the name is not intended to be disrespectful at all and they see that much good can come out of working with the school.

Regardless of anyone's view concerning the outcome, this is a positive. I don't see where the Herald reported this. I am sure if a group had met publicly about changing the name, the Herald would have been all over it. Forum Communications is probably 2 steps away from bankruptcy and it's fishwraps like the Herald that will get FC there.

If RHT doesn't let the his Standing Rock Tribe vote the concensus in Spirit Lake means nothing.

I don't see him changing his mind. I think UND could have done some outreach a long time ago.'

I think it is a little too late now.

[Siouxmama]

Spirit Lake Tribal Chairwoman Myra Pearson is VERY MUCH AGAINST the Sioux name. Not sure if it would have to go through her to get to the voting stage.

[siouxforeverbaby]

Spirit Lake Tribal Chairwoman Myra Pearson is VERY MUCH AGAINST the Sioux name. Not sure if it would have to go through her to get to the voting stage.

It would have to go through her. However, I believe that she said at one point that she would not mind seeing it go to a vote of the tribes. I do not remember when she said this. Mr. His Horse is Thunder does not want it to go to a vote at all.

[Stromer]

Spirit Lake Tribal Chairwoman Myra Pearson is VERY MUCH AGAINST the Sioux name. Not sure if it would have to go through her to get to the voting stage.

Not only is she very much against the name, but she is very much against anything that is not in the best interests of the people in power or any attempts to clean up the corruption that runs riot in tribal government. It isn't going to be an easy task.

[redwing77]

Not only is she very much against the name, but she is very much against anything that is not in the best interests of the people in power or any attempts to clean up the corruption that runs riot in tribal government. It isn't going to be an easy task.

Hey Chief,

I think I can rest my case.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I think I can rest my case.

Well, I never said it would be an easy task.

Let's face it, there was a newspaper story about something as

democratic

as an holding an election. It's obviously quite the occassion to have a tribal election-otherwise it wouldn't be news.

As noted, places like Venezuela, Cuba and Soviet-era Russia had "strongmen" government for up to 70-some years. It's not right, but it happens. Hopefully, a little sunlight will be a good disinfectant.

Better to have an election (or at least try to have an election) than to give up. Make this woman go on record opposing an free election.

I just wonder if they'll wait for a recount before declaring it or will they just wait until 1 minute past the vote tally counting to declare a misvote.

If

there is an election and

if

the side favoring the nickname wins and

if

the small number of elders/rulers declares that the election was invalid, wouldn't they say that they

need

impartial observers in order to hold a fair election?

(Same thing would hold for the next general tribal vote for leadership, wouldn't it? Might be self-defeating for them to scream "fix" too loudly on an election that doesn't affect the people in power.)

I think UND could have done some outreach a long time ago.'

I think it is a little too late now.

I'll let the locals comment on this-but are there no "outreach" programs right now? No scholarships, no favored admissions?

There's a long way to go, but if the tribe is willing to negotiate I'd say the other side (the University) has everything to gain and nothing to lose by listening and talking.

[Ray77]

Just saw this...thought it was interesting.

Spirit Lake tribal members want referendum on nickname

[Goon]

Just saw this...thought it was interesting.

Spirit Lake tribal members want referendum on nickname

If we don't get an up or down vote from the Standing Rock tribe this will be meaningless.