Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[ScottM]

I feel perpetually threatened, angry, and saddened, because this logo is being used as an improper and inaccurate representation of Native culture - and it's everywhere.

Oh, poor baby. Life's tough, sweetheart. Wear a helmet. (To paraphrase Denis Leary)

Furthermore, their decision to hold this "ceremony" is a complete disregard for the many Native people at UND and beyond who do not support the nickname, and do not support the Engelstad Arena's further exploitation of Native people and Lakota culture.

While you conveniently ignore or malign those NAs who do support the continued use of the name/logo.

We cannot blame Native people who have been persuaded by the REA to participate in this ceremony. We will respect their decision to do so.

Stop lying. You'll call them "hang around the fort Indians" or something similar.

Nice to see Dartmouth lowered its standards to meet some quota.

[mksioux]

Just thought that I would share the article from today's Dakota Student about the logo and the flag ceremony this weekend

Logo and REA Ceremony

The thing is - you can keep saying how much this logo hurts and offends you, but if you want me to have empathy for you, you need to come up with articulate and persuasive reasons why it hurts and offends you. That's the part that is always missing.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Quote from the letter-writer..

Well, this person claims to be a student at Dartmouth, and yet he/she wrote a letter saying that a decision is a "complete disregard" (sic)? Apparently grammar isn't a requirement for college admission anymore.

Does it ever occur to this person that a decision to cancel this ceremony would be a "complete disregard for the many Native people at UND who

DO

support the nickname, and support the Engelstad Arena's further recognizing the many accomplishments of Native people and Lakota culture"

Can this letter writer talk to the members of the tribe who will be there to give the flags to arena? What do they think about your three-page diatribe about how your feelings are hurt and "why can't people accommodate

ME

"

It's astounding to think that at Florida State, people walk around seeing the Seminole symbol and somehow aren't quite as outraged. Same thing with Notre Dame. Or Michigan State. Or USC. (Or any of the international visitors to San Diego State.)

Or maybe its just that those schools realize that they'll never be able to please everyone, and going thru life responding to each childish "affront" felt by someone who feels that they are a perpetual victim will accomplish nothing but further spoil these children?

The thing is - you can keep saying how much this logo hurts and offends you, but if you want me to have empathy for you, you need to come up with articulate and persuasive reasons why it hurts and offends you. That's the part that is always missing.

Please. They've told you that their feelings are hurt: that's enough. Can't you see that their feelings are far, far, FAR more important than your feelings?

[Let'sGoHawks!]

Just thought that I would share the article from today's Dakota Student about the logo and the flag ceremony this weekend

Logo and REA Ceremony

Absolute garbage.

The plan to demonstrate was just released in a campus wide email to all UND employees. This has just opened the floodgates on using the UND email list serv to talk about demonstrations from PETA to anti-Abortion to anti-Obama or McCain. I am completely embarrassed to be a UND employee right now.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

I should add, now that there is going to be a protest, I feel threatened, angry, and saddened about going to the game. Am I going to get beat up for wearing my jersey by this group? Does my opinion matter? Nope.

[Diggler]

I know I'd feel disrespected and exploited if UND allowed a group of Germans to read historical documents and sing historical German music! How prejudice can UND be? How dare they allow my people to perform things of historical importance to them on campus!! :(

If I hear Wind of Change or Rock You Like a Hurricane one more time on campus, I'm going to the UN Human Rights Council!

[GeauxSioux]

Book sheds light on First Nations players

He's scouting the University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux," says Marks. "At the time Ralph Engelstad was going to pull his funding for the new arena because the local Sioux tribe objected to being used as mascots. Now the white farmers are afraid they're losing their arena. Delorme doesn't know any of this but he stops at a local rest area. Three white guys say it's 'you Indians' fault we're losing our arena'. There's no consideration it might be racism to use someone as a mascot. They started to beat him up. He's a tough guy but he gets in his car. He fled. They blocked I29 with pickups and he ended up going up the interstate the wrong way with three farmers firing bullets at him."

So a life story takes Marks into a discussion about mascots and native culture. "I can get beyond the Tomahawk Chop or Chief Knock-A-Homa and ask things like does it infantilize their culture? Does it make them look primitive? But I get into it with a fun story."

I wasn't there, but this book sounds like fiction. Was it widely known at the time that Ralph may pull funding for REA? I thought that it only became known after the issue was resolved.

[The Sicatoka]

You'll understand if I say I'm somewhat skeptical of a story that includes:

They blocked I29 with pickups and he ended up going up the interstate the wrong way with three farmers firing bullets at him.

Yes, I-29 is desolate in some areas, but you don't block a Federal highway and fire weapons at someone and have it go completely unnoticed by law enforcement.

[Goon]

You'll understand if I say I'm somewhat skeptical of a story that includes:

Yes, I-29 is desolate in some areas, but you don't block a Federal highway and fire weapons at someone and have it go completely unnoticed by law enforcement.

I have to agree we would have heard about that one on the news because that would be like a felony.

[ScottM]

Yes, I-29 is desolate in some areas, but you don't block a Federal highway and fire weapons at someone and have it go completely unnoticed by law enforcement.

Obviously, he forgot to include the appearance of the alien "mother ship", Mother Teresa's ghost and Elvis at this road block.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Now the white farmers are afraid they're losing their arena. Delorme doesn't know any of this but he stops at a local rest area. Three white guys say it's 'you Indians' fault we're losing our arena'. There's no consideration it might be racism to use someone as a mascot. They started to beat him up. He's a tough guy but he gets in his car. He fled. They blocked I29 with pickups and he ended up going up the interstate the wrong way with three farmers firing bullets at him."

Yes, it was quite a coincidence that the

ONLY

time this has ever happened the supposed "victim" was an NHL scout and former player.

-And: said NHL scout/player never bothered to call the police, file a complaint, etc.

-Or maybe it

has

happened more than once, and other victims aren't calling the cops either: instead, they're also writing a book.

(I assume that the shooters also said "hey, we're farmers. Not authors, not students, not professors but FARMERS. Get that straight for your future book.")

Now the white farmers are afraid they're losing their arena.

BTW, thanks for drawing conclusions. I guess

all

the "white farmers" are "afraid that they're losing their arena." Enlightened people like the non-white, non-farmers are on your side. It's easy to figure that out since you've spent a good 6-7 hours in North Dakota. (Here's a guy who wouldn't sign a hockey player without extensive research, yet he feels free to disparge a race, occupation and area based on one "incident" that may have occured only in his own mind. Nice reporting by the Winnipeg paper. What's the Canadian equivilent of a Pulitzer Prize?)

Yes, I-29 is desolate in some areas....

Apparently so. I guess at least two, and as many as four cars somehow managed to drive the wrong way for miles without causing any sort of traffic problem for anyone else.

He unveils a Canadian society that sees itself as being all-inclusive and at the same time one that fails to live up to those beliefs. And, he does it all without getting preachy.

...and...

But we don't want some 68-year-old woman, hiking up her dress and hauling through six feet of snow in minus-40 degree winter to go have a whiz because that's what it's like in some places ... there's no running water. That shouldn't exist in a country as wealthy as Canada."

Thanks for not being "preachy". The words "

that shouldn't exist in a country as wealthy as Canada

" certainly doesn't sound

preachy

, does it?

And can you tell us exactly

WHERE

this outrage is occuring?

And can you assure us that its

ONLY

happening to "First Nation" people?

And can you guarantee that its only happening

BECAUSE

they're "First Nation" people?

I'd love for you to come to Chicago this winter. Lately we've had senior citizens found frozen to the floor of their homes in the city: I hope you can help out by showing that they're somehow victims of their ethnicity.

I can get beyond the Tomahawk Chop or Chief Knock-A-Homa and ask things like does it infantilize their culture? Does it make them look primitive?

...and...

...after scoring I'd pretend to pull an arrow out of a quiver and shoot the goalie. One night I pretended to shoot Don Cherry...

Can anyone explain the difference?

Yes, I-29 is desolate in some areas, but you don't block a Federal highway and fire weapons at someone and have it go completely unnoticed by law enforcement.

Quite true.

But above and beyond the desolation, just why would an NHL scout be on that highway? Are there any other major sources of NHL talent within driving distance? Can't you catch just as many flights from your city as any other city within a normal drive?

[redwing77]

You'll understand if I say I'm somewhat skeptical of a story that includes:

Yes, I-29 is desolate in some areas, but you don't block a Federal highway and fire weapons at someone and have it go completely unnoticed by law enforcement.

Though I get your point, I must say that I-29 is desolate in MOST areas. Certainly from Winnipeg to Omaha, NE it's desolate... Though I'm still debating if it is more desolate than Highway 2 between Minot and Grand Forks...

[Chewey]

Though I get your point, I must say that I-29 is desolate in MOST areas. Certainly from Winnipeg to Omaha, NE it's desolate... Though I'm still debating if it is more desolate than Highway 2 between Minot and Grand Forks...

It's more desolate between Minot and Grand Forks. As one who's driven that passage for over 20 years -- since college -- from MN, I know it well. But, one should try between Minot and Williston or Williston and Havre, MT on for size. A few years ago, two hippies from Lansing, Michigan we taking a RV/camper trip and I saw them getting gas at my uncle's truck stop. It was about 8 at night. They thought that there would be a lot of places to get gas for their gas hog past Williston. I wonder what happened to them.

[star2city]

Ralph is still a major player

The North Dakota hockey team is called the Fighting Sioux. During the construction of The Ralph, when the NCAA was putting pressure on its members to abolish politically incorrect nicknames, Englestad, who once played goalie for North Dakota, threatened to pull financing of the arena if the name was changed.

Then he put the Indian head logo in about a million places around the arena, so removing them would be cost prohibitive.

The school has until 2010 to convince the Sioux tribes to let the name stand.

If it doesn't, that sound you hear will be of bulldozers and jackhammers removing the Fighting Sioux logo from everything that moves and a lot of things that don't. And of the real Ralph rolling over in his grave.

Mental Floss

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Ralph is still a major player

I really don't think this is going to happen-nor do I think someone sitting in

Las Vegas

is the ideal source for whether or not this is a requirement.

Engelstad is best known for his collection of Nazi memorabilia, for which he once was fined $1.5 million by the Nevada Gaming Commission.

A) First, this has no relevance to the current topic of the Sioux nickname and the NCAA; but with that said...

B) Is this REALLY the reason someone is fined by a Gambling commission? Please. Many people are collectors of WWII & Nazi memorabilia. Its absolutely legal to do this. IMHO, this can't be the entire story (if its accurate at all).

Also, on the Canadian story about some hockey scout claiming that all sorts of "farmers" have nothing better to do but wait at rest areas, ride around on expressways (the wrong way) and shoot rifles at someone: I think there are a grand total of THREE rest areas on that highway within your state. One of them is between your two major cities, and they're about an hour apart by car IIRC. So yes, if he really had a LOT of coffee that night he might have needed that rest area. But IMHO that limits it to TWO rest areas. So the question remains, is there any reason for someone to be driving anywhere at that point? Are there airports, other hockey schools, etc. that he would need to drive to?

[Goon]

Also, on the Canadian story about some hockey scout claiming that all sorts of "farmers" have nothing better to do but wait at rest areas, ride around on expressways (the wrong way) and shoot rifles at someone: I think there are a grand total of THREE rest areas on that highway within your state.

Yeah, I am with you I seriously doubt this ever happen.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Yeah, I am with you I seriously doubt this ever happen.

It's sad that someone feels the need to make this stuff up: you wonder if his NHL team knows about this type of thing. If I was running a company, I'd seriously question this guy's credibility on all matters. And it's even sadder that a newspaper in Winnipeg didn't even bother to ask the simplest of questions. Having a major league team doesn't make you a major league city with a major league paper.

The newspapers can whine all they want about how "bloggers have no credibility": when they surrender what little credibility they ever had by printing this out-and-out garbage, the papers lower themselves to the very standards they criticize.

[Chewey]

It's sad that someone feels the need to make this stuff up: you wonder if his NHL team knows about this type of thing. If I was running a company, I'd seriously question this guy's credibility on all matters. And it's even sadder that a newspaper in Winnipeg didn't even bother to ask the simplest of questions. Having a major league team doesn't make you a major league city with a major league paper.

The newspapers can whine all they want about how "bloggers have no credibility": when they surrender what little credibility they ever had by printing this out-and-out garbage, the papers lower themselves to the very standards they criticize.

I'd trust the blogs way more than the papers.

[Matt]

From today's Milwakee Journal-Sentinel regarding UW playing in bowl games:

Nickname not at issue

The University of Wisconsin has a policy that discourages scheduling athletic competitions with schools that use Native American mascots or imagery.

UW is set to play the Florida State Seminoles in the Champs Sports Bowl on Saturday.

But the policy UW has in place does not apply to Florida State for two reasons.

First, Wisconsin did not schedule the game.

Second, Florida State is off the list of schools the NCAA considers subject to restrictions.

Indian tribes have endorsed the use of "Seminoles," in the same way tribes have approved the nicknames for the Catawba College "Indians," Central Michigan University "Chippewas," Mississippi College "Choctaws" and University of Utah "Utes."

Last year, the UW athletic department and athletic board recommended changes in the UW policy to make it consistent with current NCAA policy. In November 2007, UW's faculty senate approved the changes.

[ScottM]

"UW is set to play the Florida State Seminoles in the Champs Sports Bowl on Saturday.

But the policy UW has in place does not apply to Florida State for two reasons.

First, Wisconsin did not schedule the game."

So, in reality: Money talks and bullsh** walks.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

So, in reality: Money talks and bullsh** walks.

You better believe it. Do you think the Big Ten office is going to let a multi-million dollar bowl payday (split among all conference teams, BTW) go to some other school from another conference because of some crazy student "referendum"? (Not to mention that we'd tee off our cable TV partner.) No way Jim Delany would let that happen, he has bills to pay. Let's make the rules so pliable you couldn't stand them up if you nailed them to a 2x4. Certainly everyone absolutely knows that without exception Indian names are always, always offensive: unless the vote of a small group of certain people says they aren't offensive. And everyone will realize the logic behind that, and say "see that guy lighting a spear and throwing it into the ground? He's very very different than a guy at Illinois. Sure, they may appear to be the same, but the difference is obvious."

If you think about it, in theory that vote could come down to one person being "not" offended. And how many millions of people will see the Badgers play this game?

I don't know for sure that this rule (I mean "bending of the rule") actually exists on their books. Wisconsin always said they'd play against anyone in a bowl, even before the NCAA got their

official

S-list up and running. So five or ten years ago, they would have put their moral outrage aside for a few days to get to Florida or Arizona or Texas in the middle of winter.

[Hambone]

Didn't know where to put this, so thought I'd put here. Looks like Miles Brand is suffering from pancreatic cancer. While I don't agree with how the NCAA managed the nickname debate, I will keep Mr. Brand and his family in my prayers.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/bask...r.ap/index.html

[redwing77]

Didn't know where to put this, so thought I'd put here. Looks like Miles Brand is suffering from pancreatic cancer. While I don't agree with how the NCAA managed the nickname debate, I will keep Mr. Brand and his family in my prayers.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/bask...r.ap/index.html

I said it elsethread, but...

I can't stand Brand. He's ruined many programs in his past. He's a huge hypocrite and an idiot to boot.... that being said, I wanted him to retire. I didn't want him to contract cancer.

It's too bad for him and his family.

[Goon]

Brand, who was president of Indiana University from 1994 to 2002, is perhaps best known for his dismissal of basketball coach Bob Knight in 2000 for violating a "zero-tolerance" policy for misbehavior. Knight, who led Indiana to three national championships in 27 years, was fired after grabbing the arm of a student who greeted him by his last name.

I am afraid Brand will be remembered for firing Bobby Knight and taking down UND logo and name. I am sorry he is ill but

a lot of us at UND aren't big fans of him.

[redwing77]

I am afraid Brand will be remembered for firing Bobby Knight and taking down UND logo and name. I am sorry he is ill but

a lot of us at UND aren't big fans of him.

Something tells me IU basketball fans aren't a big fan of him either. IU post Knight haven't exactly been.... dominant or even...well... all that good.