Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[Goon]

Here is some more objective writing from this guy.More of the same

Here is one where he calls us a bunch of Radicals and worse.

[Hawkster]

Maybe your not getting it. What is dishonest is that Williams and the media is dishonestly trying to pass an article off as being objective social science when before the paper is written/presented the conclusion have already been made. That isn't science in my opinion nor is it value free sociology. That is social engineering. This so called scientific study is nothing more than jaming a leftist pc political view down our throats and that is not what soicology or social science was meant to be. The fact that person was presented as being objective is academically dishonest, the fact that no one challenged the news papers is also dishonest, in my opinion.

We not stupid just because we support the Fighting Sioux name. The minutes I saw this person name in the news paper I could tell you that research the Forum and Herald is trying to pass off as objective is a farce. I could tell you what the result was going to be before the paper was even written.

I think you are the one not getting it. The Williams article is objective. It points out the many problems with keeping the Sioux name. Just because he had the opinion for some time that the name had to go doesn't mean he isn't objective. I suppose you would say the same about me. I didn't just decide last week the name is offensive. This goes way back for me too.

[Sioux-cia]

On tonights news was a story on Spirit Lakes Clinic

To bad UND can't help train & help them on management of all phases of Tribal Govt. - How can the cycle be broken (or fixed) money is not the only answer

The comments are quite telling.

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/20...tate/144663.txt

[PCM]

I have to say that I really resent the myth that's often spread here that UND hasn't doesn't done enough to help the tribes in North Dakota. Could it do more? Certainly. Could it do better? Yes. But the idea that UND has done less than other schools is really bogus.

From my perspective, the university has many programs on campus and on the reservations intended to benefit Native Americans and help solve some of the problems they face. I believe that UND hasn't gone out of its way to brag about those programs precisely because it didn't want to create the perception that they were tied in any way to the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname.

As a result, UND is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. But nobody should think that the university hasn't made any real or significant efforts to reach out to the tribes because it has.

[Goon]

I think you are the one not getting it. The Williams article is objective. It points out the many problems with keeping the Sioux name. Just because he had the opinion for some time that the name had to go doesn't mean he isn't objective. I suppose you would say the same about me. I didn't just decide last week the name is offensive. This goes way back for me too.

There is nothin objective about Dana Williams research you can spin it anyway you want, its a ruse, the research is done by a biased researcher. The herald did a disjustice by trying to pass this off as objective. Ah, there you go, its another I am against the name so his research is objective. Go it. Your probably employed by the Herald as well...

[Hawkster]

There is nothin objective about Dana Williams research you can spin it anyway you want, its a ruse, the research is done by a biased researcher. The herald did a disjustice by trying to pass this off as objective. Ah, there you go, its another I am against the name so his research is objective. Go it. Your probably employed by the Herald as well...

No, I'm not employed by the Herald or any other newspaper. I am, however, trying to figure out how only the Sioux name supporters can be objective? Rather then calling Dana Williams biased, I prefer the think of him as qualified and well informed when it comes to this subject. He has, after all, done research papers on the topic.

[ScottM]

The comments are quite telling.

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/20...tate/144663.txt

Substitute "Spirit Lake" for nearly any other reservation in the nation, and you will probably have the same issues presented, unfortunately.

[ScottM]

No, I'm not employed by the Herald or any other newspaper. I am, however, trying to figure out how only the Sioux name supporters can be objective? Rather then calling Dana Williams biased, I prefer the think of him as qualified and well informed when it comes to this subject. He has, after all, done research papers on the topic.

Hi Dana.

[Fetch]

gee I look forward to Gov. Health care

[PCM]

I am, however, trying to figure out how only the Sioux name supporters can be objective?

Nobody is saying that except you. No Fighting Sioux nickname supporters are claiming to be more objective than Dana Williams. What Williams is doing that they're not doing is attempting to pass off his research based on recycled, seven-year-old data as if it's some new finding based on science. Contrary to how the Herald portrayed Williams, he quite obviously has a long, personal stake in the Fighting Sioux nickname issued based on his previous writings and associations.

Why does that matter? Here's what the National Institutes of Health says about the need for objectivity in research:

Objectivity of researchers is an essential value in scientific research and

the basis for public trust. Researchers should be led by their data, not by

other interests that might undermine the scientific integrity of their work.

[Hawkster]

Hi Dana.

Nope. Absolutely not. In fact, I have never met Dana Williams, but I have the highest respect for his work on this subject.

[Hawkster]

Nobody is saying that except you. No Fighting Sioux nickname supporters are claiming to be more objective than Dana Williams. What Williams is doing that they're not doing is attempting to pass off his research based on recycled, seven-year-old data as if it's some new finding based on science. Contrary to how the Herald portrayed Williams, he quite obviously has a long, personal stake in the Fighting Sioux nickname issued based on his previous writings and associations.

Why does that matter? Here's what the National Institutes of Health says about the need for objectivity in research:

Unlike, say medical research, some personal feelings are going to creep into any statement made regarding the changing of a nickname. That same bias is evident in the arguments thrown out by both sides. Does that make my opinion less valid because of my opposition to the Sioux name?

It's hard to measure the racism that comes into play because of the continued use of the name. We have to defer to the namesake culture and let their leaders decide. Since they have stated repeatedly the name has to change, let's just do it. Again, why can't we just move forward, embrace a new name and work to the common good?

[Sioux-cia]

gee I look forward to Gov. Health care

OMG!!! Don't even joke about that!!! You want to know what socialized medicine is going to get you, go to an Indian Health Service facility. The government tells me what I can and can't order (medicine), who can or can't be referred to specialty care, who can or can't get assistive devices, what testsetc. The abuse of the 'free' health care by many of it's recipients has been a contributing factor for all the rules, regulations, etc.

[ScottM]

Nope. Absolutely not. In fact, I have never met Dana Williams, but I have the highest respect for his work on this subject.

Sure, Dana.

[PCM]

Unlike, say medical research, some personal feelings are going to creep into any statement made regarding the changing of a nickname.

It is possible for personal feelings, self-interest and bias to influence the outcome of any research, which is why the scientific community takes great pains to guard against it. Biased research is not credible research. Attempting to pass off obviously biased research as being scientifically objective is destructive to researchers and scientists because it damages their credibility in the eyes of the public.

That same bias is evident in the arguments thrown out by both sides.

Let me state this once again because you clearly are not getting it.

Nobody here who supports the Fighting Sioux nickname is claiming that their scientific research proves them right.

Does that make my opinion less valid because of my opposition to the Sioux name?

We're not talking about your opinion. We're talking about Williams' alleged "scientific research."

[Diggler]

[Oxbow6]

OMG!!! Don't even joke about that!!! You want to know what socialized medicine is going to get you, go to an Indian Health Service facility. The government tells me what I can and can't order (medicine), who can or can't be referred to specialty care, who can or can't get assistive devices, what testsetc. The abuse of the 'free' health care by many of it's recipients has been a contributing factor for all the rules, regulations, etc.

Heck, go to Minnesota or Mass. A couple of the most "socialized" healthcare industries in the US. It's a joke! I practice in Fargo but dealing with MN healthcare plans makes me want to start saying "Welcome to Starbucks. What can I get for you this morning..."

Free! I always like that one, but the abuse, as you mentioned, is the main problem. Going to the ER because you threw up after gorging your face after Thanksgiving dinner?? But can't keep up with regualr follow-up for your diabetes because you are too busy! Lack of personal responsibility/accountability for ones own health always amazes me. Get lung cancer because you have smoked for 40+ years and can't figure out why the Dr. said there is nothing we can do to help you--it's terminal and you have 6 months to live. Healthcare has become a fast food mentality.

[The Sicatoka]

Seems how clinics are run is how they run businesses ... they get the work on a preferred supplier contract and then can't follow instruction on how to build (how to weave!) body armor for American soldiers.

Spirit Lake tribe settles Kevlar body armor manufacturing case

The Associated Press

Published: December 19, 2007

FARGO, North Dakota: A tribal business has agreed to pay $1.9 million (

[Goon]

Nobody is saying that except you. No Fighting Sioux nickname supporters are claiming to be more objective than Dana Williams. What Williams is doing that they're not doing is attempting to pass off his research based on recycled, seven-year-old data as if it's some new finding based on science. Contrary to how the Herald portrayed Williams, he quite obviously has a long, personal stake in the Fighting Sioux nickname issued based on his previous writings and associations.

Why does that matter? Here's what the National Institutes of Health says about the need for objectivity in research:

Oh my god that is beautiful. Value FREE Sociology is also supposed to be conducted the same way as well.

[Fetch]

you get $406,350 for reporting a screw up

That's the way the law is set up," Wrigley said. "That's the way you get relators, which otherwise you might not have."

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Sure, Dana.

No, no, no. Not a writer. Still in school at some level. Don't forget, this poster informed us over the summer that he and his classmates had already discussed this (presumbably, that was so the rest of us would be spared the heavy lifting of actually thinking for ourselves); and they concluded that Sioux had to go and something "nice and neutral" should be adopted instead.

You know, like "Pork Chop". Something everybody can get behind. Non-controversial. A name nobody can say is demeaning....

BTW, you can read this week's Sports Illustrated for some absolutely priceless rationalization about Pork Chop. Apparently the minor league team thinks its absolutely okay to just rename their mascot at any time. So their new nickname will be rotated out any day now I guess.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I have to say that I really resent the myth that's often spread here that UND hasn't doesn't done enough to help the tribes in North Dakota.

For some, there will simply never be "enough". And its not as if that situation is unique to either North Dakota or to your particular American Indian population. Its just that you have given this group of complainers not only a bullhorn to scream out their nonsense all night, but also a sledgehammer to whack you over the head with.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Wait a minute. His interests NATURALLY led him to nicknames?

Which part is natural? An undergrad in Computer Science? (The fact that he took that undergrad and went on to grad school for sociology is interesting in and of itself.) The grad work in Sociology?

Are we to assume that everone with a BS from North Dakota in Computer Science who go on for a Masters or doctorate in Sociology should study "American Indian sports nicknames"??

[Hawkster]

No, no, no. Not a writer. Still in school at some level. Don't forget, this poster informed us over the summer that he and his classmates had already discussed this (presumbably, that was so the rest of us would be spared the heavy lifting of actually thinking for ourselves); and they concluded that Sioux had to go and something "nice and neutral" should be adopted instead.

You know, like "Pork Chop". Something everybody can get behind. Non-controversial. A name nobody can say is demeaning....

BTW, you can read this week's Sports Illustrated for some absolutely priceless rationalization about Pork Chop. Apparently the minor league team thinks its absolutely okay to just rename their mascot at any time. So their new nickname will be rotated out any day now I guess.

While you weren't specific, I'm assuming that this little outburst is somehow directed at me. I will inform you that I am no longer in school, and have graduated for some time now. Well employed using my Poli Sci degree, I might add. I just love how anyone who supports the Native Americans in there quest to rid UND of a racist logo will be ridiculed. I said a long time back that the Sioux name would be retired and I was right What I can't figure out is why we seemingly have refocused our attention from finding a new name that conveys what we are at UND to bickering over keeping the old name. BTW, since you aren't even a UND grad, I don't see where you even have a horse to race in this event.

[Oxbow6]

While you weren't specific, I'm assuming that this little outburst is somehow directed at me. I will inform you that I am no longer in school, and have graduated for some time now. Well employed using my Poli Sci degree, I might add. I just love how anyone who supports the Native Americans in there quest to rid UND of a racist logo will be ridiculed. I said a long time back that the Sioux name would be retired and I was right What I can't figure out is why we seemingly have refocused our attention from finding a new name that conveys what we are at UND to bickering over keeping the old name. BTW, since you aren't even a UND grad, I don't see where you even have a horse to race in this event.

We are the FIGHTING SIOUX!! That conveys what WE are at UND. The general public thinks so, the majority of those on the reservations thinks so, but a few PC (Poli-Sci educated??) objectioners are once again trying to ram down the throats of the majority an "I'll show you" agenda. Read thru the many threads on this topic, read the many articles sited that show that the real issues of those involved, i.e. NAs, are once again being glossed over so a few who feel they have been "abused" can become powerful. Racist logo is an OPINION by some. You really should be a little more objective from a societial value standpoint when trying to argue your case. When those who are claiming racist logo are the same ones that are basically leading their own people down the same road of unchangable dispair and hopelessness, I will voice my opinion, as will others, on how obsurd we feel this nickname/logo argument has become when you look at the totality of what NAs are dealing with. Come to me with some quote or study on how His Horse Is Thunder is going to provide food for undernurished children, or proper heat for the elderly on the reservation without saying "we need more money" and I'll listen to you, but in the mean time you come across as some arrogant, look at my degree, pinhead PC liberal.