To begin a journey of a 1000 miles....

[Diggler]

It won't effect DIA football because they have no playoffs and the NCAA doesn't have rule over the Bowls. It will effect every other sport in every other division though, including DII football. UND will not be allowed to host.

[bisonguy]

It won't effect DIA football because they have no playoffs and the NCAA doesn't have rule over the Bowls.

[BigGame]

GrahamKracker = KnowtheFacts

[GrahamKracker]

GK changed his name to Knowthefacts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Negative,

I didn't change my name, nor do I plan on it, just a little FYI. You know, believe it or not, there are more people out there than just me that would like to see this name changed.

As for me. Yes, I am a UND student. Yes, I am Lakota. Yes, I am a veteran. Yes, I am one of the few who can actually claim to be SIOUX on this campus. And yes, I am the owner of www.siouxcrew.com.....just give me a couple weeks, I'll have it up and running!!! I hope you all can come and see my awesome website dedicated to all of the wonderful "FS" fans that eat SIOUX DOGS and drink H-SIOUX-O, then belittle the ones who are the rightful owners of the name. Hetche to yelo. I would be willing to sell this website to someone though, say for $100,000,000.00?? LOLOLOL

[Diggler]

So you own the name now? What has been done to belittle the rightful owners? Anything beyond just having the name Fighting Sioux? Anything beyond isolated incidents that we all agree were caused by idiots?

It is amazing to me that you come to this board and say that people are always purposely showing disrespect to the Lakota, Dakota, etc. by using the name. But at the same time, you purposely show disrespect for others on this board and start threads that aren't so much for discussion, but rather for attacking those that disagree with you. It is possible to have a civilized discussion on this matter and you've even asked for that. Yet you often go against your own requests and make threads like the one you just started making fun of Engelstad. Is it do as I say, not as I do or what?

[bigmrg74]

I posted this on another board, and I wanted you all to see it as well.

****

If anybody here that should be offended by an Native American name like the Fighting Sioux, it should be me*. It's not because I am Native American or partially NA. I'm actually mostly German with some Scottish in me. But, on my dad's mother side of the family, I have a very famous victim of Sioux violence. General George Custer. Should I be pissed off about there being a team out there that glamorizes the people who bumped him off? I could be, but I'm not. I know damn well it was his stubborn pride and pigheadedness (Runs in the Family!) that led him to go into the Little Big Horn when he could have pulled out, or have even surrendered his forces as well. Hell, given what I know about him, he was pretty darn lucky to make it as far as he did without having somebody wack him. Lucky me eh??

My point is, that other people on a side of this issue can have an oppinion that does count even though they don't have a drop of NA blood in them. I haven't seen anything wrong with how North Dakota has used the name Sioux for their teams, other than perhaps they should drop the "Fighting" part. That's pretty much the same for the Illini, Chipawa's, and Seminoles. Some of the Generic team names, like Redman, Redskins, Indians, Braves, Warriors and Savages probably should go, but if schools have a local tribe or more that support that school's use of that name, well, I don't see a need for any changes then.

* Me being used to make a point, so lay off.

****

[ScottM]

So you own the name now?  What has been done to belittle the rightful owners?  Anything beyond just having the name Fighting Sioux?  Anything beyond isolated incidents that we all agree were caused by idiots?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Considering "sioux" will generate around 6M hits on Google and over 20M on Yahoo, and given the wide ranging uses of the name online, from various American Indian groups to tools to cities to steam cleaners to energy companies and pottery, it can safely be said that nobody really "owns" the name. If somebody claims ownership, they had better get off their lazy asses and start enforcing their "rights" to the name under "the white man's law".

[The Sicatoka]

And yes, I am the owner of www.siouxcrew.com.....just give me a couple weeks,

If you are so sure this NCAA action will finally garner "victory" (and I use that term in the hollowest, weakest possible manner) why waste your time or efforts. Or are you not sure.

And of course you realize your site will be worthless, a net fiscal worth of $0, on the open market once you have achieved this "victory" and the Sioux are extinct from the realm of the collegiate.

More efforts with no tangible benefits. Must be frustrating.

[KnowtheFacts]

[KnowtheFacts]

Knowthefacts:  Why haven't you answered the question of why you don't focus on things that would DIRECTLY HELP Native Americans?  I.e. poverty, crime, drug and alcohol abuse and teenage pregnancy rates both on and off the reservation? 

Don't evade.  Please answer the question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You forgot a really huge issue that still faces Native Americans in your list. That is having to deal with racism and stereotypes imposed by people like you. It's kind of hard to get out of a rut when everyone thinks of you as a poor pregnant criminal who abuses alcohol and drugs. What are YOU doing? After all you are "honoring" the Sioux right?

I'm working on MY part. but since I am currently studying at UND where I get to deal with *this* every day. I work on the name issue, because I believe that what people learn about the Sioux from the UND experience leads them to treat NA's poorly in real life. Yes if the name is changed, the poor treatment will continue. but in time that will change because we wont be raising our children on these false beliefs.

see quote below as well.

[Diggler]

I'm working on MY part.  but since I am currently studying at UND where I get to deal with *this* every day.  I work on the name issue, because I believe that what people learn about the Sioux from the UND experience leads them to treat NA's poorly in real life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is *this*? The nickname? What negative things do people learn from UND about the Sioux? Specific things that UND does, not just generalizations.

[dagies]

You forgot a really huge issue that still faces Native Americans in your list. That is having to deal with racism and stereotypes imposed by people like you. It's kind of hard to get out of a rut when everyone thinks of you as a poor pregnant criminal who abuses alcohol and drugs. What are YOU doing? After all you are "honoring" the Sioux right?

I'm working on MY part. but since I am currently studying at UND where I get to deal with *this* every day. I work on the name issue, because I believe that what people learn about the Sioux from the UND experience leads them to treat NA's poorly in real life. Yes if the name is changed, the poor treatment will continue. but in time that will change because we wont be raising our children on these false beliefs.

see quote below as well.

Of the discussions you and I have had on this the last couple of days this one I find the most difficult to understand.

I just don't see how UND having the nickname Sioux causes poor treatment of Native Americans. Your comments above imply (at least to me) that the Sioux nickname is one cause of these problems and that eradicating the nickname is the first step in the process of fixing them.

I just don't see that.

Now, I won't disagree that there are racist people. I won't disagree there are people who "just don't get it". We've seen some of those comments posted in these discussions. I just don't see the nickname as the cause of that. In the end I'm either right, or I'm ignorant. Maybe in time I'll understand my ignorance, but I'm looking for it now and not seeing it (ok, everyone, take your shots! )

I know many years ago people thought it was just fine to sit blacks in the back of the bus and not serve them at restaurants. Now society understands these issues better. Racism still exists but overall we've come a long way. Will that happen with the nickname issue?

I still just don't see how the nickname is causing these problems.

[sucka]

I am white and not from North Dakota. My parents live in Denver. I had never heard of or cared about the Sioux. But after coming to UND I have learned about the Sioux and become aware of their existence. Had UND not honored the Sioux I never would have cared or heard about them. Call me ignorant but if you have no exposure to something you never really get the chance to learn about it. WHy would you anti fighting sioux posters not want people to know about your culture and respect it as I do.

[Fetch]

This says it all - anything else is just trouble making

The University of North Dakota chose the name of the Fighting Sioux in the 1930

[GrahamKracker]

[GrahamKracker]

I am white and not from North Dakota.  My parents live in Denver.  I had never heard of or cared about the Sioux.  But after coming to UND I have learned about the Sioux and become aware of their existence.  Had UND not honored the Sioux I never would have cared or heard about them.  Call me ignorant but if you have no exposure to something you never really get the chance to learn about it.  WHy would you anti fighting sioux posters not want people to know about your culture and respect it as I do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So know you know all about the Sioux, huh? Did you learn this by drinking H-SIOUX-O and eating SIOUX Dogs? Or did you learning by taking Indian Studies classes offered by Non-Indians, or did you learn it by hanging out at American Indian Student Services? I don't remember seeing you there, but then again, I don't see many Non-Indians there.

And you know what? There are millions who don't care about the Sioux, and I don't expect them to. Just like the Norwegians, I could care less about them, too, but because of the Vikings I learned so much about their culture living in this part of the country. Again, please tell me how you were "exposed" to the Sioux. And don't tell me that seeing a drum group and a couple dancers constitute knowing and understanding my culture, because that is very far from the truth.

[PCM]

1. First of all, Now you know that your joke is offensive to some people.  Will you continue to tell it?

If I thought the one offended person's reaction to the joke was unwarranted and unreasonable, then, yes, I would continue to tell it. However, if I told the joke to 20 more people and 6 of them said they were deeply offended, I'd probably stop telling the joke.

Or will you show respect for that persons feelings and "interpretation" and hold back.

I can't possibly know how each person is going to react to or interpret a joke, especially if it's a joke that I don't consider offensive. Certainly there is humor that's easily recognizeable as being offensive to most people, but there's also a lot of it that some people will laugh at while others are offended.

Should I stop telling jokes completely just because some people have no sense of humor or take things too seriously or interpret things too literally or are totally irrational in their thinking? Humor would soon be outlawed in this country if we operated on the principle that any humor that offended any person for any reason should be banned.

Maybe even try a different joke?  It is one think to do something and not know it is offensive.  It is an entirely different thing to continue doing something once you know how it affects people.

While watching Comedy Central, I constantly hear comedians tell jokes based on race, sex and stereotypes that I'm sure many people find offensive. And I'm quite certain that when the comedians tell these jokes, they do it knowing full well that someone, somewhere will be offended.

But there's this concept upon which our nation was founded that's known as freedom expression. Just because I'm offended, it doesn't give me the right to censor comedians that I find offensive.

I can always change the channel, refuse to buy their CDs and urge others to boycott them. If most people agree with me, the the offensive comic will either have to clean up his act or risk losing popularity and sales. If they don't, he'll go right on doing what he's doing without me being able to do anything about. And that's the way it should be.

2.  Maybe you need to go visit the archives for yourself. Then base your knowlege on facts instead of rumors you hear at the bar.  I did my research. 

Actually, a few years ago, I spent about a week in the special collections section of the Chester Fritz Library conducting research on the history of the Sioux hockey program. In the process of doing that research, I read a great deal about how UND came to adopt the Sioux name.

The discussion happened in the Dakota Student for a couple weeks, the students went to the President, asked to change the name and it was done.  Shortly thereafter, they were referring to themselves as the Sioux.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's actually quite a bit more to it than that. Athletes and students had been unhappy for years about the Flickertails nickname. And even if your facts were 100 percent accurate, it still doesn't mean that the one letter to the editor you cited is a fair representation of the entire rationale for UND adopting the Sioux name. It was simply one person's opinion.

[The Sicatoka]

So in your mind this all comes down to the mighty dollar ...

Weren't you pontificating about UND not spending enough on Indian programs recently? The almighty dollar, eh?

[Diggler]

So know you know all about the Sioux, huh?  Did you learn this by drinking H-SIOUX-O and eating SIOUX Dogs?  Or did you learning by taking Indian Studies classes offered by Non-Indians, or did you learn it by hanging out at American Indian Student Services?  I don't remember seeing you there, but then again, I don't see many Non-Indians there. 

  And you know what?  There are millions who don't care about the Sioux, and I don't expect them to.  Just like the Norwegians, I could care less about them, too, but because of the Vikings I learned so much about their culture living in this part of the country.  Again, please tell me how you were "exposed" to the Sioux.  And don't tell me that seeing a drum group and a couple dancers constitute knowing and understanding my culture, because that is very far from the truth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He never claimed to know everything about the Sioux, just that he has now been exposed to them. Probably the same amount of exposure you've had to Vikings through the football team. You are attacking a guy for things he never claimed.

How about you try discussing things without attacking and belittling people. And don't say that you are doing it because that is what is done to you through the nickname. That is what a three year old does. If you truely want your viewpoint to be respected, show some maturity and quit attacking people for giving their honest opinion.

[PCM]

And whatever you say, please please please don't bring up the Vikings, because they were not an entire culture.  That issue is talked about elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, and you never did answer the questions I posed in that discussion.

[The Sicatoka]

"Vikings"?

What about Irish, and Vandals, and Quakers, and Aztecs.

[GrahamKracker]

Weren't you pontificating about UND not spending enough on Indian programs recently? The almighty dollar, eh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a difference in appropriating money to the largest Minority group on campus and kissing the a$$ of the alumni. You should know this with a name like Sicatoka, but the True Sioux don't sell out. There is hundreds of millions in trust that prove this point.

[GrahamKracker]

"Vikings"?

What about Irish, and Vandals, and Quakers, and Aztecs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Irish, that school was founded by the Irish. I've never heard of the Vandals as a cultural entity. The Quakers are a religious group, not a people. The Aztecs are a Native American group, central American, but one none the less. What's your point?

[GrahamKracker]

[The Sicatoka]

There's a difference in appropriating money to the largest Minority group on campus and kissing the a$$ of the alumni. 

I believe we looked at those numbers and saw that American Indians got a larger proportion of those monies than their fraction of campus population would warrant.

What I don't understand is this: The Florida Seminole ("Unconquered") Nation is fighting to support FSU. Have they "sold out"? If so, isn't that their right?