To begin a journey of a 1000 miles....

[GrahamKracker]

One must take that first step. Thanks NCAA for taking that first step!!! Someday, you people will have to treat the Natives of this continent with respect, respect that your forefathers didn't give my ancestors.

You can call it HONOR, but I have copies of resolutions from all but ONE federally recognized Sioux Tribes calling for an end of the use of the name fighting sioux by this Institution. Its not what YOU think, it what and entire Sioux NATION thinks!! Hetche to yelo!!

[PCM]

Someday, you people will have to treat the Natives of this continent with respect, respect that your forefathers didn't give my ancestors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We didn't win a championship, but we won a lot of respect. - Cary Eades, North Dakota Fighting Sioux Assistant Coach

You could learn something from Cary Eades and the Fighting Sioux hockey team. Respect can't be legislated. It can't be mandated. It can't be coerced. You can't force anyone to respect you.

You get respect the old-fashioned way. You earn it.

[Runninwiththedogs]

One must take that first step.  Thanks NCAA for taking that first step!!!  Someday, you people will have to treat the Natives of this continent with respect, respect that your forefathers didn't give my ancestors. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, my forefathers lived in Minnesota in the mid 1800's and actually got along well with the Natives in the area. So why don't you learn who you're talking to before you open your mouth.

[BigGreyAnt41]

This isn't an argument that I really want to be a part of but PCM is right. Respect isn't given out for free, it has to be earned.

Just because the NCAA is taking "that first step," doesn't mean any more respect will come. I'm not saying there isn't already some respect, but sometimes I get the feeling the tribes don't accept the respect they are given.

[iramurphy]

One must take that first step.  Thanks NCAA for taking that first step!!!  Someday, you people will have to treat the Natives of this continent with respect, respect that your forefathers didn't give my ancestors. 

  You can call it HONOR, but I have copies of resolutions from all but ONE federally recognized Sioux Tribes calling for an end of the use of the name fighting sioux by this Institution.  Its not what YOU think, it what and entire Sioux NATION thinks!!  Hetche to yelo!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a load of bull. I doubt you were around when the so called Indian wars took place. Some people respected your ancestors, some feared them, and some hated them. Some even tried to help them. Your ancestors were treated just like anyone else during that time period by their enemies. Not very well. Have you and the tribal leaders tried to get reparations form those tribes who defeated your ancestors and took their land or do you just want to go after the "deep pockets".

If you review history, your ancestors were treated much worse by some of the Native Tribes who invaded your ancestors land and took it away from them. They stole their livestock, kidnapped women and children and enslaved some of them.

The white guys did much the same except then tried to assimilate them to our culture. There were crooked government agents and corupt military and government officials who did whatever awful things they did but at the end of the day, the United States provides billions of dollars for housing, health care, and education. The United States government also tried to allow the Native Tribes to maintain their Sovereign Nations within the reservations. Obviously that hasn't been working so great, but find another country like the United States who has tried to do what it has done for the armies they have defeated and that includes your ancestors.

I don't know whether or not the NCAA ruling will cause a change in the UND Fighting Sioux name or not. If that occurs, you will lose the support of thousands of UND Alumni around the country who have tried to help Native Americans and supported Native American issues in our communites and state because of the Sioux Name. Many of them will never set foot in an Indian casino again nor attend a Native American pow-wow.

It would have been a lot smarter to have approached the issue with an open mind and tried to work with our culture the use the Fighting Sioux issue as a tool to help your people especially the kids on the reservations. The NCAA crowd may win this battle for you but you will again lose the war.

How can you not see this as discrimination against an entire culture? Have you not noticed that Native Americans are the only cultural group included in this ban? You guys just got hoodwinked by the crooked Indian agent (the NCAA) again.

[CVCL]

One must take that first step.  Thanks NCAA for taking that first step!!!  Someday, you people will have to treat the Natives of this continent with respect, respect that your forefathers didn't give my ancestors. 

  You can call it HONOR, but I have copies of resolutions from all but ONE federally recognized Sioux Tribes calling for an end of the use of the name fighting sioux by this Institution.  Its not what YOU think, it what and entire Sioux NATION thinks!!  Hetche to yelo!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GK, you are right in one comment. It is about this, "Someday 'you people' will have to treat the Natives of this continent with respect". With that, I believe the one step is not enough. Let's take more steps. Lets make real decisions with real implications.

You feel that 'people' or 'the man' are holding you down. Time to get rid of reservations and government subsidation. Seperate but equal does not wash. Reciprocities for times and actions gone by need to cease.

You are correct about respect, it wasn't given. It is now, let it go. Respect is earned one on one, out of ethical, moral, and spiritual actions.

[HockeyMom]

GrahamKracker,

I have read a few of your posts, I'd like to know a little about you.

I believe you are a UND student. If you are what are you studying? Why did you choose the University of North Dakota, and what do you plan on doing once you graduate?

And, it really doesn't hurt if you are calling us crackers with your sign name.

[mksioux]

Do you honestly think anyone is going to respect you more for whining about nicknames and how they "offend" you? The recent actions by the NCAA may show that your whining may lead to condescending pity from white elitists, but it won't lead to true respect from anybody.

[Diggler]

Why do you keep starting all these threads? You keep saying the same things over and over again. Why don't you just keep it in one thread?

Just because you don't get everything you want, doesn't mean you aren't respected. In fact people who accept that they can't always have their way, are willing listen to others and compromise, are typically among the most respected.

[KnowtheFacts]

Why do you keep starting all these threads?  You keep saying the same things over and over again.  Why don't you just keep it in one thread?

Just because you don't get everything you want, doesn't mean you aren't respected.  In fact people who accept that they can't always have their way, are willing listen to others and compromise, are typically among the most respected.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where have you been? There is a time for listening to others, but there is a time when you must be uncompromising as well. Was Ghandi a "whiner" because he didnt always get his way? And Martin Luther King Jr., should he have spent more time "listening to others" and "compromising" so that black people would still be trying to get out from under White oppression?

I agree that respect is not an automatic thing, however when you *already claim to be respecting someone*. You can't also turn around and cuss out their children (I've seen it happen on the UND campus) and you cant tell someone you say you respect that their opinions dont matter and to quit whining. (im not saying that you have done this, but I do know that Native American students get a lot of grief whether or not they have an opinion about the logo).

If I respect you then I will also listen to you and be willing to discuss your ideas and feelings, not to discount them. Ive been reading these threads and GK has added a lot of factual information that no one really acknowleges. Instead they resort to personal attacks. Why don't *you* start listening for once?

[Diggler]

Why doesn't GrahamKracker answer many of the questions that are posed to him? Has anyone made a similair comment towards him like he made when he said "I'm sorry that your skin burns if your out in the sun too long" and that Vikings are not a people. Where have personal attacks occured? Just because GK is questioned, doesn't mean he's being attacked. When he's asked questions, people have answered. When others ask questions, he sometimes answers.

GK seemed to be saying that everyone who doesn't want the name changed, doesn't respect him. That isn't true. Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I don't respect them. There are always idiots everywhere, includings both sides of this discussion. At SCSU people wearing Sioux jerseys have been called Nazis by protestors. These people are morons and obviously don't respect people with differing opinions, but they hardly represent the majority of name change advocates. In fact, they probably represent a very small segment of them, just like the idiots who swear at small children represent a small segment of the people who are for keeping the name.

[HockeyMom]

GK changed his name to Knowthefacts.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

GrahamKracker/Knowthefacts: Why don't you focus your energy on something that would directly HELP Native Americans? For example, why not focus on poverty, crime, drugs, alcohol, teen pregnancy rates, etc on the reservations and in other areas of the state? Why not focus on Tribal leaders collecting huge sums of money from casinos/gaming and other members of the tribe living in absolute poverty? You trying to get a college name changed to help Native Americans is like me trying to sell lemonade for 10 cents a cup in an effort to make a million dollars. Focus on the issues that matter... please.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

One more thing GK/Knowthefacts: How in the world can you speak for an entire nation of people? What do you say about the polls that state the majority of Native Americans are okay with the Sioux name? What about those who say it honors the tribe? Are they wrong?

[ScottM]

One more thing GK/Knowthefacts:  How in the world can you speak for an entire nation of people?  What do you say about the polls that state the majority of Native Americans are okay with the Sioux name?  What about those who say it honors the tribe?  Are they wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah. They're obviously ill-equipped to form their own opinions, or otherwise follow the "orthodoxy" espoused by their "leaders" of so-called sovereign nations who cannot, or will not, focus their energies on more mundane concerns like crime, unemployment, alcohol abuse, etc.

[dagies]

GK changed his name to Knowthefacts.

IMO at least KnowtheFacts appears more willing to discuss the topic than GK who may have thrown out some information but threw so many wild accusations and generalizations of his own that any point he tried to make was lost.

[fightonsioux]

I would just like to say that I do not want the name kept because I feel it honors Native Americans. I see no honor is a group of people that are defeated by another group of people and then whine and cry about for the rest of their lives.

I want the name kept because that is what it has been for almost 80 years and because the University was asked by the Sioux Nation to use the name.

Let's say our name was still Flickertails (God help us) and the Sioux Nation came to us and asked us to change it to the Sioux and we told them no. They would be pissed off. So were danged if we do and danged if we don't. They story of the white people's lives.

[LeftyZL]

I would just like to say that I do not want the name kept because I feel it honors Native Americans. I see no honor is a group of people that are defeated by another group of people and then whine and cry about for the rest of their lives.

I want the name kept because that is what it has been for almost 80 years and because the University was asked by the Sioux Nation to use the name.

Let's say our name was still Flickertails (God help us) and the Sioux Nation came to us and asked us to change it to the Sioux and we told them no. They would be pissed off. So were danged if we do and danged if we don't. They story of the white people's lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent Post Fightonsioux....

[KnowtheFacts]

I would just like to say that I do not want the name kept because I feel it honors Native Americans. I see no honor is a group of people that are defeated by another group of people and then whine and cry about for the rest of their lives.

I want the name kept because that is what it has been for almost 80 years and because the University was asked by the Sioux Nation to use the name.

Let's say our name was still Flickertails (God help us) and the Sioux Nation came to us and asked us to change it to the Sioux and we told them no. They would be pissed off. So were danged if we do and danged if we don't. They story of the white people's lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Please tell me why you think the name honors Native Americans. Please be specific (for example I hear lots of people say they are more educated about Sioux culture but what does that mean?)

2. The Sioux Tribes never asked UND to use their name.

-At one point some individuals from one tribe "gave permission" but they had no authority to do so.

-Also all but one SIOUX Tribe (only the smallest tribe/Flandreau) and many other North Dakota tribes have written formal resolutions asking for the "Fighting Sioux" nickname and logo to be changed. Here is the link to some of those resolutions (you'll have to cut and paste): http://www.UND.edu/org/bridges/index2.html

-In the mid-1930's a student wrote to the Dakota Student Proposing that UND change its name to the Sioux - From what I read in the Paper they were referring to themselves as the *Nodaks* at the time. His reasons were because the Sioux would be a good opponent for the bison and it had more potential for rhyming in cheers and slogans. There was NO mention of honor. Remember at that time in this country Native Americans were not even considered citizens and didnt have the right to vote. You can bet there were no native american students on campus at the time.

3. I can guarantee that even if the UND were the Flickertails, No tribe would ask to become a stereotyped mascot for a non-tribal college. There are groups all around the country working to change the pattern that the "white people" have created.

???Danged if we do and danged if we don't. How can you even try to set the "white people" up as the victim? I have so much to say, but really you need to read some books about Racism and the History of how American settlers treated the indigenous people. (Watching "Into the West" doesn't count) I have recommendations if you are interested.

[airmail]

I have so much to say, but really you need to read some books about Racism and the History of how American settlers treated the indigenous people. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This statement caught my attention. What bearing do you feel this has on the "nickname" issue? Certainly, past events have indeed been heartbreaking and tragic for the Native American people; I will not argue what is now commonly known American history. But it is all just what I said... history. How can, and at what point does the issue gain any sense of closure?

[Sioux-cia]

1. Please tell me why you think the name honors Native Americans. Please be specific (for example I hear lots of people say they are more educated about Sioux culture but what does that mean?)

2. The Sioux Tribes never asked UND to use their name.

-At one point some individuals from one tribe "gave permission" but they had no authority to do so.

-Also all but one SIOUX Tribe (only the smallest tribe/Flandreau) and many other North Dakota tribes have written formal resolutions asking for the "Fighting Sioux" nickname and logo to be changed. Here is the link to some of those resolutions (you'll have to cut and paste): http://www.UND.edu/org/bridges/index2.html

-In the mid-1930's a student wrote to the Dakota Student Proposing that UND change its name to the Sioux - From what I read in the Paper they were referring to themselves as the *Nodaks* at the time. His reasons were because the Sioux would be a good opponent for the bison and it had more potential for rhyming in cheers and slogans. There was NO mention of honor. Remember at that time in this country Native Americans were not even considered citizens and didnt have the right to vote. You can bet there were no native american students on campus at the time.

3. I can guarantee that even if the UND were the Flickertails, No tribe would ask to become a stereotyped mascot for a non-tribal college. There are groups all around the country working to change the pattern that the "white people" have created.

???Danged if we do and danged if we don't. How can you even try to set the "white people" up as the victim? I have so much to say, but really you need to read some books about Racism and the History of how American settlers treated the indigenous people. (Watching "Into the West" doesn't count) I have recommendations if you are interested.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. The athlete who is known as a Fighing Sioux is a person with strenght in body and mind, a person who sacrifices to achieive and maintain this strenght, a person who in the face of adversity continues to do their best and more, a person who continues to give back to the community even when they leave it (Alum), a person who is there for their brothers and sisters (teammates), a person who is proud of being a Fighting Sioux in the face of insults, etc, a person who is a role model to the youth of the community who believe that the Fighting Sioux are the best in the world. How does this NOT honor the Sioux people?

2. A small Sioux tribe gave the University permission to use the name. Why do you not recognize their right to do so? Are they not Sioux with pride? Why are there so many Sioux children wearing Fighting Sioux shirts, hats, etc.? Do they not have Sioux pride?

3. There are Indian groups across the country that want schools to use their name, i.e. the Utes, the Seminoles, the Chippewa. Are their decisions wrong because they are not your decision. This country was founded by immigrants who were persecuted in the 'old country'. The Indians were persecuted by other Indians and then by the people who came to settle in the 'Americas'. History. We are now all Americans, you too. And we are all granted the right to free speech by the First Amendment.

[kfah1]

1. The athlete who is known as a Fighing Sioux is a person with strenght in body and mind, a person who sacrifices to achieive and maintain this strenght, a person who in the face of adversity continues to do their best and more, a person who continues to give back to the community even when they leave it (Alum), a person who is there for their brothers and sisters (teammates), a person who is proud of being a Fighting Sioux in the face of insults, etc, a person who is a role model to the youth of the community who believe that the Fighting Sioux are the best in the world. How does this NOT honor the Sioux people?

2. A small Sioux tribe gave the University permission to use the name. Why do you not recognize their right to do so? Are they not Sioux with pride? Why are there so many Sioux children wearing Fighting Sioux shirts, hats, etc.? Do they not have Sioux pride?

3. There are Indian groups across the country that want schools to use their name, i.e. the Utes, the Seminoles, the Chippewa. Are their decisions wrong because they are not your decision. This country was founded by immigrants who were persecuted in the 'old country'. The Indians were persecuted by other Indians and then by the people who came to settle in the 'Americas'. History. We are now all Americans, you too. And we are all granted the right to free speech by the First Amendment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sioux-cia, I believe you have provided an excellent response/answer to KTF. Couldn't have said it better.

However, it probably will fall on deaf ears. It seems that any well stated and meaningful arguments/points to support the reasoning to keep the Fighting Sioux name will never be good enough and (s)he/they will continue to argue against your/our views.

The debate will always be there whether or not the name stays or goes, but I don't believe posters such as KTF/GK and others even care about our views, in as much as they purport to say we don't care or understand theirs. Those who support the Fighting Sioux name and all that it embodies can continue to answer their questions and argue against its removal but they will never be satisfied.

Now that the PC buffoons at the NCAA have made such a ridiculous decision, it just feeds the fire these particular individuals have been dying to jump into.

While quality debate is always good and necessary, after awhile it is no longer debate and the original intent for debate is lost. So many quality posters have stated before that there is so much emphasis put into the name Fighting Sioux that all seems to be forgotten regarding the positives that have and can be done for Native Americans (regardless of which tribe they belong to).

Again, very well stated. Your answers alone should stir pride in the name Fighting Sioux and all it embodies. That is why students, alumni, atheletes and fans share in that very pride. I know I share in it!

[PCM]

1.

Edited August 10, 2005 by PCM

[Let'sGoHawks!]

Knowthefacts: Why haven't you answered the question of why you don't focus on things that would DIRECTLY HELP Native Americans? I.e. poverty, crime, drug and alcohol abuse and teenage pregnancy rates both on and off the reservation?

Don't evade. Please answer the question.

[jloos]

American Indian people are being used by the anti-establishment nutjobs who are unfortunately now mostly college professors. Also people like Russel Means have jumped on the bandwagon sniffing for publicity - which equals more $$ for them. Much like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton use black people for their own financial gain.

Your "ancestors" gave UND permission to use the name. UND as an institution has always treated the name with respect. I have been to several Sioux hockey games home and away and encountered hundreds of protesters - I suspect less than 10% of these people had any native blood. Most Indian people I know and that I am friends with support keeping the name and feel it is a case of out of control PC. The few Native friends I have that want to keep the name can at least make a coherant argument for wanting it changed - I have yet to see this from anyone on this board.

To generalize every white persons ancestors this way only goes further to show your ignorance.

This ruling by the NCAA is likely unconstitutional, I hope UND challenges it, hell I would if I had standing.

Even if the ruling stands - UND will not change their name. It's not like the Sioux are hosting a ton of NCAA postseason events - my understanding of the ruling (which I have only heard about second hand) is this will not have any effect on football.