DI vs DII (Horizon League)

[sokarcrazy]

The following link is about UWGB struggle in DI athletics. It has pretty interesting facts and figures (more specific for BB), does anyone know how UND or ndsu stacks up?

link: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/sports..._21626571.shtml

[star2city]

The following link is about UWGB struggle in DI athletics.  It has pretty interesting facts and figures (more specific for BB), does anyone know how UND or ndsu stacks up?

link: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/sports..._21626571.shtml

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Based on this: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetail.asp?CRITERIA=3 and this: http://www.UND.edu/org/iac/IAC9-16-03.htm

Overall athletic department budget

1. Illinois-Chicago, $9,444,118

2. UW-Milwaukee, $8,250,000

3. Youngstown State, $8,094,500*

4. Wright State, $7,815,891

--> UND $7,350,000**

5. Butler, $7,220,114*

6. Loyola, $7,191,148

7. Cleveland State, $6,532,609

---> NDSU $6280*

• 8. UWGB, $5,314,726

9. Detroit, $5,198,275

---> SDSU $4785*

* - includes football

** - includes football and hockey

Men’s basketball budget

1. Wright State, $1,186,080

2. Detroit, $1,115,018

3. UW-Milwaukee, $1,110,293

4. Loyola, $1,107,171

5. Butler, $1,053,972

6. Illinois-Chicago, $748,219

7. Youngstown State, $713,127

8. Cleveland State, $699,129

• 9. UWGB, $668,691

->10. UND $533 K

->11 NDSU $478 K

->12 SDSU $356 k

Men’s basketball recruiting budget

1. Cleveland State, $73,742

2. Youngstown State, $50,000

3. Loyola, $49,000

4. Butler, $46,000

5. Detroit, $43,442

6. UW-Milwaukee, $40,000

7. Illinois-Chicago, $39,994

• T8. UWGB, $30,000

T8. Wright State, $30,000

->10. UND $22,500

Women’s basketball budget

1. Butler, $851,291

2. Wright State, $850,857

3. Cleveland State, $828,035

4. Loyola, $762,160

5. Detroit, $672,712

6. UW-Milwaukee, $667,916

7.Youngstown State, $582,927

--> NDSU $523

--> UND $513

• 8. UWGB, $510,300

9. Illinois-Chicago, $456,004

---> SDSU $307

Women’s basketball recruiting budget

1. Cleveland State, $47,477

2. Illinois-Chicago, $40,500

3. Wright State, $40,000

4. Butler, $37,000

• 5. UWGB, $35,000

6. Loyola, $34,200

7. Detroit, $30,497

T8. Youngstown St., $30,000

T8. UW-Milwaukee, $30,000

->10. UND, $15,210

[Bison Dan]

[star2city]

Your using the 2003-2004 budget for NDSU and 2004-2005 for everyone else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, its 2003-4 data for UND, NDSU, and SDSU, with 2004-5 data for the Horizon teams.

Correct the data if you want.

[star2city]

Interesting articles from the Davis (CA) newpaper:

Progress over Wins

The dollars and cents of Division I

Costs that were often incidental in Division II are quickly becoming major expenses. With the campus halfway through its controversial transition to Division I, one thing is clear: UCD is not in Turlock anymore.

Enrollment caps brought on by the state budget crisis last year have likely postponed full funding for UCD's scholarship program until 2008-09, a year after the Aggies become eligible for Division I championships.

Rising travel costs are taking a bite as well. The football team's two trips to the Dakotas this fall will likely cost $500 per person in airfare. In Big West cities like Long Beach and Santa Barbara, it is nearly impossible to find a hotel room for less than $100 a night.

"I can't remember ever really paying over $500 dollars for an airline ticket anywhere," UCD athletic director Greg Warzecka said. "Some of the behind-the-scenes challenges are just finding enough money to balance out the sports budgets."

[star2city]

Northern Kentucky, who's move to DI seemed all but a rubber stamp after the legislature funded a new arena on campus, is apparently reconsidering:

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...EWS01/507060356

Interesting that NKU used the same consultants that SDSU and NDSU chose. However, it seems NKU also chose to include within the consultant's report the facility improvement costs that will be needed at the DI level. The SU' schools chose not to have $ figures for facility improvements in their report, as it would have been too negative towards DI.

NKU has been studying the possibility of moving to Division I for a couple of years and consideration sped into high-gear four months ago when Kentucky lawmakers approved a $60 million arena to house NKU's top sport - basketball - in three years.

NKU hired Carr Sports Associates, headed by former University of Houston Athletic Director Bill Carr, to study the feasibility of a Division I move.

"The message from the consultants is that NKU could move to Division I if it wants to, but it's going to cost a lot of money," said Votruba. "Ticket revenues for five, six or seven years don't come close to offsetting costs.

Students would have to bear that cost in form of a tuition hike Votruba called "considerable."

Consultants have told NKU that it will need $20 million to $25 million to build and upgrade athletic facilities and will have to pour another $4 million into its athletic budget every year to go Division I.

With university officials saying they need to spend more money on academics, the additional high cost of upgrading athletics has become a key factor in deciding a jump to Division I.

NKU President James Votruba had hoped to make a recommendation on a jump to the university's board of regents at a July 13 meeting and let the board decide the issue then.

But consultants' reports about high costs have given Votruba pause.

[star2city]

Latest installment of UC-Davis DI series:

D-I decisions abound

"Any school that makes the move without a conference lined up to join is taking a major gamble," Big West commissioner Dennis Farrell said. "I don't think a school can survive as a Division I Independent. You need access to Division I governance and access to Division I championships. If you make the move and don't have a conference, I just shake my head."

[star2city]

Last two installments from the Davis paper on UC-Davis' DI move:

A more comfortable fit?

Ready for its close-up

An editorial in the Cincinnati Post on NKU's delay:

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar.../507070327/1003

Northern Kentucky University President James Votruba has his priorities in the right order.

His decision to slow down the effort to move the school's athletic program to Division I in favor of more careful analysis is a smart one that embraces a broader look at NKU's purpose and future.

Sure, it would be exciting to have NKU play the likes of the University of Kentucky and the University of Cincinnati on a regular basis. Norse fans got a taste of that excitement last year when NKU scrimmaged UC, UK and Ohio State in consecutive preseason games - especially when freshman Coach Dave Bezold's team took a 1-point lead in to halftime against the Bearcats.

But school pride and pompoms only go so far - there are other considerations beyond the basketball court and baseball diamond.

Votruba said the cost of upgrading the athletics program to Division I and its potential to distract from NKU's academic focus and its vision for building the region's economy are behind his hesitation.

[bincitysioux]

2003-2004 figures:

UND Athletic Budget: $7,350,852

Avg. Budget of DI-AA schools with DI hockey: $13,348,209

Avg. Budget of "regional" DI-AA schools: $6,930,870

*the "regional" schools I looked at are NDSU, SDSU, UNC, Montana, Montana St., Idaho St., and Southern Utah.

UND doesn't seem like it would be very far off from the other schools in our region if we were to move up. The budgets of the hockey schools is nearly double what UND's is, that's kinda scary. On thing about it is they're all located in the Northeast, maybe they have to spend more to compete with one another (recruiting, media exposure, fan support, etc).

[ecbrevik]

2003-2004 figures:

UND Athletic Budget:

[bincitysioux]

While that budget isn't enough to go D-I, its also important to remember any D-I move is more than just budget. Look at the population base of North Dakota vs that of other states. Some population numbers from the 2000 census:

Wyoming - 493,782

North Dakota - 642,200

Nebraska - 1,711,263

Iowa - 2,926,324

Minnesota - 4,919,479

Georgia - 8,186,453

Florida - 15,982,378

New York - 18,976,457

California - 33,871,648

This is just a partial list, but the trend holds very true to if all states were listed. Note that most of these states have larger populations, with the exception of Wyoming. Short of Nebraska and Iowa, much larger populations. I simply don't think North Dakota has the population base to support 2 D-I schools,While UND's athletic budget is impressive for D-II, you have to remember there is a D-I sport in there that makes up a significant amount of that budget. When combined with a number of other factors (small population, historical reluctance of the state of North Dakota to spend money), I don't think its in UND's best interests to look to go all D-I.

I don't think that these are very good comparisons to UND or NDSU. I was comparing to I-AA schools like Montana, Montana St., New Hampshire, Maine etc.

I'd say these states are more comparable to North Dakota population-wise and school enrollment-wise. No one here is suggesting UND move to I-A and start funding athletics like Minnesota, Nebraska, Florida, or UCLA. NDSU and its supporters are quick to point out that schools like Montana, Montana St. are their peers. I would agree with this, and say that UND's peer institutions are schools like NDSU, Maine, New Hampshire, etc. Not University of Mary or Bemidji St. I think a move to DI-AA IS in UND's best interests.

[ecbrevik]

I don't think that these are very good comparisons to UND or NDSU.

[bincitysioux]

Moving to I-AA is still going to ramp up the expenses, with no guarantees that returns will keep pace. Football will still require much higher expenses than current levels, as will basketball etc. To use numbers from your examples, Montana spends 4.3x more on football and 4.4x more on men's and women's basketball than UND. Montana State spends 3.4x more on football and 3x more on basketball. The football operating expense budget for Montana is 55%, more than half, the TOTAL athletic operating budget at UND. No matter how you slice it, a move up is going to require a significantly larger athletic budget for UND teams to be competative. Where is that money going to come from?

Before UND moved up, I would want to see 2 things:

1) a REALISTIC budget, and

2) a commitment to/from an established conference

I'm currently in Georgia. We have a textbook example of a move to D-I done wrong in Savannah State University. I would hate to see something like that happen to UND.

Montana/Montana St. spends alot more on football because that is there #1 sport, like hockey is to us. I used the Big Sky schools I mentioned because they are the closest I-AA schools to us, along with some Great West schools. In terms of total athletic budget, we are in the ballpark. The best I-AA comparisons for UND are Maine ($2 million football budget), New Hampshire ($1.4 million), to a lesser extent UMASS ($745,000). I think you have to look at schools that support DI hockey and have successful hockey programs. I'm sure NDSU's football budget is bigger now since their move up, but in 2003-2004, UND's football budget was slightly higher ($1.316MM vs. $1.309MM), and football is the number one sport at NDSU. Every school is unique. NDSU approached their move with the idea that they are more on par with Montana/Montana St. rather than MSUM and Northern St. UND needs to approach it like we are more on par with Maine and New Hampshire rather than Crookston and Bemidji St.

[IowaBison]

I think that both UND and NDSU realize that their bread and butter in the long run is attracting students from the Twin Cities.

[The Sicatoka]

From http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_events/pres...e_Athletics.pdf

(That's the report released last week.)

Executive Summary

Effects of moving from Division II to Division I

[ecbrevik]

Montana/Montana St. spends alot more on football because that is there #1 sport, like hockey is to us.

[ecbrevik]

Other interesting quotes from the NCAA study http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_events/pres...lstudy_rls.html

"Division II schools considering increases in athletic spending or switching to Division I should carefully consider the financial impact.

[star2city]

3) I don't think the state is going to appreciate very possibly throwing millions of dollars a year into the athletic department to keep D-I athletics afloat, and quite frankly, I think there are better places to spend that money myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Without a conference, first-class facilites (i.e. football /track indoor facility), and a decent scholarship endowment, UND shound not go DI. But there are several relatively painless ways in which to generate more funds if a DI route was chosen. Many of these take advantage of the Ralph media capabilities, which few schools can match. Others assume that Big Sky membership is forthcoming in 2008-9 (which some sources have indicated is highly probably with NDSU and SDSU being accepted also.) The net effect of these changes should be well in excess of $1 M, if executed reasonably well.

- Eliminate men’s/women’s double-headers for basketball. Paid attendance would nearly double as a result. (Most DI schools, the Big Sky included, schedule men’s and women’s BB separately anyway.)

- Reduce/eliminate broadcast of Sioux games on WDAZ, and gradually ratchet up access fees for cable to carry the FSSN and /or retain all advertising revenue on the FSSN.

- With membership in the BSC, expand the # of cable systems carrying the FSSN in South Dakota and Eastern Montana.

- Increase exposure in Winnipeg area cable by emphasizing Winnipeg natives like Zajac and Toews. Although more difficult, generate Winnipeg interest in Sioux football and basketball (the interest in basketball among Winnipeg’s large immigrant community is supposedly huge.)

- A renewal of UND-NDSU games (with separate men’s / women’s gates) means +$100 k in Bball annually and +$75 k in football (with higher prices and a sellout) every other year.

- Increase football season tickets by 1500, increase basketball season tickets by 1000

- Drop non-revenue sports not required by the conference.

- With Big Sky membership, annually there would be either a Montana State or Montana game. Since these schools travel very well - and both have large #’s of Twin Cities alums - increase the price for single tickets (much as Gopher-Sioux hockey games are more expensive).

- Become one of THE powers of women’s hockey, so average attendance becomes ~2500 / game. Get 6000/game for the Minnesota series. Become a regular host of the Women’s Frozen Four. (The more events at the Ralph -> the more UND athletics benefits financially.)

- Become a prime deliverer of programming to Denver’s Altitude network (Sioux-Denver hockey, Sioux-CC hockey, Sioux games in the Big Sky). No other Big Sky school could produce and deliver telecasts as cheaply.

- Sell select broadcasts (including Big Sky basketball) to Fox Sports North

- Do a round-robin holiday basketball tournament at the Ralph with either NDSU or SDSU and two mid-major teams. The attraction of the Ralph would entice decent mid-major teams, and the presence of NDSU or SDSU would enhance the gate.

- Get the Big Sky basketball tournament at the Ralph. The economic impact in Grand Forks could be significant, especially if SDSU or one of the Montana schools advances. (Again, the more events at the Ralph -> the more UND athletics benefits financially.)

- Collect the DI payments from the Frozen Four

- Increased UND visibility sells more Sioux merchandise -> more royalties. I live in the South and a number of people have asked to get them a Sioux hat or t-shirt after they see the logo.

[star2city]

2) That same small population base is going to make it difficult to recruit effectively at the D-I level. Face it, North Dakota doesn't produce that many D-I quality athletes in any given year. That means going outside the state for talent. But for an athlete being recruited by D-I schools in most mainline sports, I think there are a lot of more attractive looking options out there than Grand Forks, ND. I don't say that to be mean, I love the state and would move back in a heartbeat if I could find an appropriate job. But I will be brutally honest. I've lived in many parts of this nation of ours, and North Dakota does not evolk postive images in the minds of most people I meet. They plan to avoid the state, especially in the winter, like the plague.

What advantage does the rest of our athletic department get out of a D-I move, what is the over-riding reason to do this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

UND (and NDSU) are going to be forced to increasingly rely on Minnesota for their students. The athletes at UND already reflect a heavy Minnesota bias. With only one DI program in Minnesota, it is the state most under-represented in the DI ranks (in DI schools / population). If Minn, ND, and SD were merged into one state of 6.5 million, four DI schools (Uof Minn, UND, NDSU, SDSU) would not be excessive, as there is generally one DI school for every one million people. By moving to DI, UND can also position itself, at least in public perceptions, as more than a tier above other Minnesota publics like Minn-Duluth, SCSU, MSU-Mankato, that might otherwise for competitive in certain fields.

[ecbrevik]

UND (and NDSU) are going to be forced to increasingly rely on Minnesota for their students.

[ecbrevik]

Without a conference, first-class facilites (i.e. football /track indoor facility), and a decent scholarship endowment, UND shound not go DI.

[Bison Dan]

I sorry, but despite how nice all your ideas look, I have to go with experience and a funded study that has taken a close look at the D-II to D-I move. If UND goes D-I, its going to cost state $$$$. The school is almost certainly going to loose net revenue, and will have to make up the shortfall somehow out of the schools budget. In my opinion, in tight economic times, that is money that can be spent in better ways than the support of a vanity move to D-I athletics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The move to start the womens hockey team is already costing the state money because of the tuition waivers used.

[TheBisonator]

ecbrevik, I don't care if you knock down the idea of UND moving to Division I. I agree with you on most of your points. However, please don't knock NDSU and our move to Division I. Our move so far has proven to be successful, with the exception of finding a conference. We've raised more money than ever, and are playing much better teams than we would have if we stayed in Division II. So please don't put down our DI move without actually doing a little research first.

[The Sicatoka]

We've raised more money than ever, ....

Nobody is questioning that.

What the key question is (based on that report) is, "Is it enough to cover all of the new expenses?"

[dakotadan]

Everyone knows that it is going to take more money if a move to DI is to happen. Kupchella has stated from the very beginning that a move would have to be funded by a large increase in scholarship endowments. At one point he threw out that an increase of $70 million in endowments would be needed.

I am one who does support a close look at DI. But I also understand that there are things that need to be in place before a move can happen, most importantly a source of money. Scholarship endowments would be one of the most obvious and reliable sources.

Also, I don't believe that school prestige is a large reason that people are interested in a move to DI. I have no dreams that 5,000 additional students from around the nation are going to flock to Grand Forks to attend UND just because our football team now plays DI-AA football.

The main reason that I am interested in a DI UND is competition. The NCC has always been one of the top conferences in DII as far as nationally competative teams. Unfortunately we have lost 3 very competative teams from our schedules within the last few years. If there were other Universities around that were fairly similar to UND, NDSU, SDSU, and UNC it would be one thing. But there are not too many schools similar in size/competativeness/fan bases in the region that are not already in the NCC. Now just because the 'SUs, UNC, UC-Davis have all gone DI is not a reason just to jump to DI immediately. But at some point you start to say to yourself "If all of these schools believe that they can make it in DI, maybe we should at least look at it."

I don't enjoy replacing these schools with UM-Crookston, MSU-Moorhead, UMary, and possibly Minot State. I do however get excited about the possability of playing Montana, Montana State, Northern Iowa, and even Minnesota and Wisconson on a regular basis. And especially about playing NDSU, SDSU, and UNC again. I think it would be amazing to go to the Ralph on a saturday night with 8-10,000 other people and watch UND take on UM or UW in men's basketball.

As far as the report done on DIIs moving to DI, I believe there are some good facts in there and some real concerns that would have to be looked at. But I also acknowledge that this report was done by those in charge of DII to "encourage" more schools to stay in DII and not consider a jump to DI.

I realize that there are alot of issues to deal with if UND were to move to DI. There are alot of pieces that would have to be in place. But I also believe that with alot of planning/time/patience/commitment, UND could make the move successfully. Those in charge at UND are there for a reason and I believe that they will make the right choice for UND.