North Dakota = North Korea, No Difference!

[NDSU grad]

[Always thought you were a rocket scientist.

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Close. Soil Scientist

You seem to know quite a bit about hydrology. Do you have any journal articles to back up your opinions. I'm not trying to call you out or anything; I'd seriously like to read them.

Like all of North Dakota, the Devils Lake region is a very immature landform, with a throughflow type drainage system. The leading expert in the country in wetland hydrology resides at NDSU, and I know he's stated the hydrology regarding the Devils Lake region is complex enough that he puts little faith in predictive models regarding the lake's levels. We can argue until we're both blue in the face, but I would take some substantial data to get me to believe that conservation tillage and a return of the region's ephemeral wetlands would even make a dent in the current lake levels. I tend to believe it's a natural cycle and we could have done little to prevent it.

[IowaBison]

[sprig]

Close. Soil Scientist

You seem to know quite a bit about hydrology. Do you have any journal articles to back up your opinions. I'm not trying to call you out or anything; I'd seriously like to read them.

Like all of North Dakota, the s Lake region is a very immature landform, with a throughflow type drainage system. The leading expert in the country in wetland hydrology resides at NDSU, and I know he's stated the hydrology regarding the Devils Lake region is complex enough that he puts little faith in predictive regarding the lake's levels. We can argue until we're both blue in the face, but I would take some substantial data to get me to believe that conservation tillage and a return of the region's ephemeral wetlands would even make a dent in the current lake levels. I tend to believe it's a natural cycle and we could have done little to prevent it.

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The pumps and lifts are in place and pumping the DL basin into the Sheyenne may have already begun. AS far as I know there are no controls over the timing or flows that will be created by the pumping. As you probably know the SHeyenne flows into the Red very near Fargo, after passing through Lake Ashtabula and VC and through much of the farmland south of I94 and east of VC. When DL pumping coincides with Sheyenne Valley and RRV flooding, the fight pitting landowner against landowner and city against city will be staged in ND, long before that water ever enters Manitoba. I would guess anyone could make a good guess as to whom will win that political battle when it occurs.

The Devils Lake area demands to pipe water into the basin from Lake Sakakawea just over 10 years ago were not met in the short term before the basin began filling and flooding. Somehow I have trouble feeling sorry for any area whose watersheds are totally destroyed, and whose solution is to get water from someone else when they have too little, and pass the problem on to others when they have too much.

The pumped DL basin will take a very long trip through some very rich cropland (the richest in ND) as well as ND's largest cities (GF and Fargo), before ever entering Manitoba.

From http://savethesheyenne.org/:

Data from the State of North Dakota shows that between 412,000 and 569,000 acres of wetlands originally existed in the Devilss Lake Basin, and that between 201,000 and 358,000 acres of wetlands have since been drained in the basin. Based on a 1983 report on "Water storage capacity of natural wetlands in the Devils Lake Basin of North Dakota" co-authored by current Interim State Engineer Dale Frink, those 201,000 to 358,000 acres of drained wetlands in the Devils Lake Basin had the capacity to store from 309,540 to 541,000 acre-feet of water during a 100-year runoff event, and they had the capacity to store up to a maximum of 343,770 to 612,180 acre-feet of water. Much of that storage would have been renewable every year as a result of evaporation and seepage from those wetlands, but most of that water now is channeled directly to Devils Lake via Channel "A" and Mauvais Coulee from the 22,000 artificial drains approved by the county water boards and the State Engineer, as well as additional thousands of illegal drains, in the basin.

Rather than addressing the State's own data on wetland drainage in the Devils Lake Basin in a substantive and objective manner, however, according to the press:

    "State engineers argue that farm runoff represents only a slight fraction of the problem."

I'm not sure how soil scientists think, but 300,000 to 550,000 acre feet of water (note maximums are larger than that) that enters into the DL basin from drainage, is hardly insignificant. That's, for example, five feet of water on sixty thousand acres in lower runoff years, or five feet of water on one hundred ten thousand acres in high runoff years. And that amount of drained water has entered the basin every year (and mostly at the upper end for those figures) for several years, since this wet cycle began in the mid-90's. Of course, these drainage numbers are from 1983, and the current numbers are likely much higher than that. I don't have the capacity to fathom the insignificance of that drainage.

As near as I can google, the current level of the basin is 1439.3, covering 86,400 acres. That means that the low end of drainage above, if restored, could remove 3 feet of water, or reduce the size of the basin by 10,000 acres. The higher end of drainage repaired would stop over 6 feet of water from entering the basin, drying an additional 18-20,000 acres that are currently flooded. There is no doubt the basin has a long history of flooding, and good evidence of historic flooding events exist, prior to wetland drainage. But recovering 10,000 to 20,000 acres of farmland lost to upstream drainage seems significant to me.

Why should the Sheyenne Valley and RRV landowners accept the 300,000 plus acre feet of water in average years (that is drained from the DL watershed), much less a much larger amount during major flooding events in the RRV (such as the 1997 event). It seems there is more for ND to worry about than what Manitoba thinks.

[tony]

I'm not sure what the solution is. There probably isn't one. An outlet won't affect the lake level that much, and I'm pretty sure that most of the former wetlands, whether they were being drained or not before, are now brimming with water. Heck, I remember dry lake beds being used for hay that are now full of water deep enough to water ski on.

I think that in the longterm figuring out a way to stablize the lake level might be more important than simply draining the lake. Closed systems like DL are, by their nature, unstable. If all this lake water evaporates, the concentrations of minerals and whatnot in DL are going to rocket up. I think that's why some people want to revive Garrison... get fresh water in, drain "salty" water out, and keep the lake level more stable (and, at the same time, provide a longterm solution for the Valley's water needs). However, this will only help keep the lake from getting too dry and, if the wet-cycle lasts several years longer, nothing will prevent the lake from rising to the natural spill-level elevation (1457 feet) . Being a jerk about the real problems this is causing in Devils Lake and wrongly blaming farmers is not going to solve any problems.

I did find a more recent article about wetlands storage potential and the attempts to restore wetlands (havent' read this yet myself): Wetland storage

BTW, current elevation of Devils Lake is 1448.5 feet and rising very slowly. Acreage is around 135,000 and it contains 2.6 million acre-feet of water. It will take a LOT of acre-feet to get to 1457.

Anyway, the lake level hasn't been at 1439 feet since 1997 or so. And the wetland report quoted by sprig... well, that was from 1983! The interesting thing about the Devils Lake basin is that it appears that wetland seepage ends up in Devils Lake eventually... that's why the lake sometimes rises in drought periods. That's also probably why models don't do a good job of predicting lake levels.

Anyway, I'm skeptical about information from the Save the Sheyenne folks - they might have some good points, but they do an awful lot of cherry-picking of data to support their arguments. They aren't interested in getting at the truth;, they are interested in stopping an outlet and, as such, they are not a good source of information. Like the Canadian scientists say, there isn't much data out there to go on.

[tony]

The Origin and Behavior of Devils Lake by John P. Bluemle

I thought the above link made for an interesting read. You can jump right to the conclusions toward the end if you want to get to these quotes:

Normally, when Devils Lake is at a high level, all the natural wetlands are filled to capacity.

The actions of humans during the past 120 years or so

[NDSU grad]

The pumps and lifts are in place and pumping the DL basin into the Sheyenne may have already begun. AS far as I know there are no controls over the timing or flows that will be created by the pumping. As you probably know the SHeyenne flows into the Red very near Fargo, after passing through Lake Ashtabula and VC and through much of the farmland south of I94 and east of VC. When DL pumping coincides with Sheyenne Valley and RRV flooding, the fight pitting landowner against landowner and city against city will be staged in ND, long before that water ever enters Manitoba. I would guess anyone could make a good guess as to whom will win that political battle when it occurs.

The Devils Lake area demands to pipe water into the basin from Lake Sakakawea just over 10 years ago were not met in the short term before the basin began filling and flooding. Somehow I have trouble feeling sorry for any area whose watersheds are totally destroyed, and whose solution is to get water from someone else when they have too little, and pass the problem on to others when they have too much.

The pumped DL basin will take a very long trip through some very rich cropland (the richest in ND) as well as ND's largest cities (GF and Fargo), before ever entering Manitoba.

From http://savethesheyenne.org/:

[The Sicatoka]

North Dakota = North Korea?

Apparently someone north of the border reads The Onion.

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/General...o_harboring.htm

[bigmrg74]

North Dakota = North Korea?

Apparently someone north of the border reads The Onion.

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/General...o_harboring.htm

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Hahaha.... oh, that is priceless. I especially liked the commit from the person in Moorhead about the missles in her back yard.

But, on a more serious note, did any of you guys see the artical on the drought in the latest National Geographic magazine that's affecting most of the west? On their little map, they showed that the most western part of North Dakota being effected by the drought. Correct me if I'm wrong, But Devil's Lake is a natural reservior that would need a whole lot more water before it would overflow naturally out. If I was you guys, I would want to be hanging on to that water, not in a hurry to get rid of it. There's plenty of room in North Dakoka. Find a spot a little higher up to build your lakefront houses people.

[Cratter]

Hahaha.... oh, that is priceless. I especially liked the commit from the person in Moorhead about the missles in her back yard.

Find a spot a little higher up to build your lakefront houses people.

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Higher up? Two/Three feet? That's be 700 feet away from the lake.

[bigmrg74]

Higher up? Two/Three feet? That's be 700 feet away from the lake.

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So invest in golf cart if going to the beach is your thing.

[NDSU grad]

But, on a more serious note, did any of you guys see the artical on the drought in the latest National Geographic magazine that's affecting most of the west?  On their little map, they showed that the most western part of North Dakota being effected by the drought.  Correct me if I'm wrong, But Devil's Lake is a natural reservior that would need a whole lot more water before it would overflow naturally out. If I was you guys, I would want to be hanging on to that water, not in a hurry to get rid of it.  There's plenty of room in North Dakoka.  Find a spot a little higher up to build your lakefront houses people.

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I don't know if Western Ward County is technically considered Western North Dakota but that part of the state is definitely not in a drought. Record wheat yields last year and part of Highway 52 got washed out in a torrential rain storm just the other night. In fact, I think it's safe to say pretty much the whole state is in an extemely wet cycle.

[PCM]

In fact, I think it's safe to say pretty much the whole state is in an extemely wet cycle.

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Up until this summer, central and western North Dakota and South Dakota had been facing drought conditions for the past few years. I was shocked to see how low the Garrison and Oahe reservoirs were when I took a trip out west last fall.

[dagies]

I saw the Nat Geo article too. Maybe the DL water should get piped out west instead of to the Red.

[CoteauRinkRat]

I don't know if Western Ward County is technically considered Western North Dakota but that part of the state is definitely not in a drought. 

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I would say that is pretty far West in the state.

[sprig]

Actually, western ND started and stayed very dry through May, but over the last few weeks it's gone to very wet, flooded roads and ditches, overflowing wetlands, and rain continues. Unbelievable.

Of course Lake Sak is still very low.

Maybe the DL basin could be piped directly to Missouri to float a few barges.

[IowaBison]

[PCM]

if you emptied DL into it, would it go up a foot (until it passed into south dakota and beyond)?

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Plus, as Garrison Diversion and the Devils Lake outlet prove, any time you start considering the idea of moving water from one drainage basin into another, you're going to trigger a huge fight over environmental issues.

[sprig]

Plus, as Garrison Diversion and the Devils Lake outlet prove, any time you start considering the idea of moving water from one drainage basin into another, you're going to trigger a huge fight over environmental issues.

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Not just environmental, however, but also, what single area gets water when they want it, and gets rid of it when they don't, when others upstream and downstream from them are in the same situation.

[PCM]

Not just environmental, however, but also, what single area gets water when they want it, and gets rid of it when they don't, when others upstream and downstream from them are in the same situation.

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That too.

[NDSU grad]

You guys are right, western ND was fairly dry unitl June, and I don't know many people west of the river. I was just browsing NDAWN and randomly picked a few spots around the state and of the few I picked all reported above average precipitation in June.

I haven't driven across Lake Sakakawea in a long time but had heard it is far below normal, but I think that can be attributed to very low snowfall totals in the Northern Rocky Mountains for quite a few years in a row.

[ecbrevik]

A couple of points to toss into the discussion here:

1) Wetlands are very important in controlling floods through the storage of water. However, most of our understanding of how wetlands work in terms of flood control is in the context of open systems, or in other words, a typical stream system. Devils Lake is a closed basin system. Eventually, all water that falls in the basin ends up in Devils Lake and stays there (minus evaporation and infiltration). Therefore, the wetlands in the Devils Lake basin would probably be of limited long-term value in preventing the rise of the lake. Pollution is another issue, however. Many farm chemicals would be neutralized in healthy wetlands within the Devils Lake basin, meaning there is still a very good environmental reason to restore them.

2) Geological evidence clearly indicates that Devils Lake has risen to its overspill level many times and has also completely dried up in geologically recent times (post Lake Agassiz, making a comparisons of Lake Agassiz to Devils Lake's changes moot). What the lake has gone through over the last few decades is all part of a natural cycle.

[star2city]

Toronto Globe and Mail had a major article on Devils Lake:

Who'll stop draining of Devils Lake?

So Devils Lake is being drained?

But North Dakota can be stopped only if Washington steps in to stop it. And although President George W. Bush has voiced his concern about Devils Lake, the U.S. government refuses to invoke the Boundary Waters Treaty to order that work on the ditch be halted. This lack of commitment has left the Canadian government frustrated.

"It seems passing strange that the U.S. federal government could walk away from an international treaty this easily," protests Reg Alcock, the federal minister responsible for Manitoba. But, he acknowledges, "the political dynamics are not in our favour down there."

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who should be leading the charge to protect the Boundary Waters Treaty, needs the support of the two Democratic senators from North Dakota on several important issues, and is unwilling to alienate that support by dropping the hammer on the Devils Lake ditch.

It is also an open secret that Republican Governor Hoeven plans to run for the Senate next year, and Mr. Bush is keen to have a Republican senator elected from North Dakota. If the White House were to prevent the opening of the ditch, Mr. Hoeven's political ambitions would lie in ruins.

[jimdahl]

Recent media flurry as a deal is reached and people complain about the deal. A sampling...

Devil's Lake water to flow this week 8/8 CBC News

Critics call Devil's Lake deal "a joke" 8/8 The Globe and Mail

North Dakota urged to again delay Devils Lake floodwater diversion project 8/8 CBC News