New arena in fargo?

[ESPNInsider]

[The Sicatoka]

KVLY-TV 11 let a cat out of the bag last night. Here's a paraphrasing of that report:

The $40 million is to only build the arena.

It does not:

- buy the existing buildings

- clear the block

- provide infrastructure improvement needed for the arena

- build a new fire station (one of the buildings on the block to be destroyed)

That's another $10 to $20 million Fargoans would have to pay for directly (not with the sales tax extention which is only for the building of the arena) or through creative tax financing.

PS - The original plan was 3300 seats at $40 million. Now they're going to build 7000 seats for the same $40 million? Someone pointed that out to me and I can't explain it.

[jloos]

KVLY-TV 11 let a cat out of the bag last night. Here's a paraphrasing of that report:

The $40 million is to only build the arena.

It does not:

- buy the existing buildings

- clear the block

- provide infrastructure improvement needed for the arena

- build a new fire station (one of the buildings on the block to be destroyed)

That's another $10 to $20 million Fargoans would have to pay for directly (not with the sales tax extention which is only for the building of the arena) or through creative tax financing.

PS - The original plan was 3300 seats at $40 million. Now they're going to build 7000 seats for the same $40 million? Someone pointed that out to me and I can't explain it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This goes to show Bollinger et. al. could give a damn about the rink - they just want public $$ to help finance their real estate project. They are not trying to make downtown better, rather they are trying to milk downtown's recent popularity and cash in on it. I believe there has to be a supermajority (2/3) vote to extend the Dome tax - I highly doubt they will get that many people to vote yes.

[The Sicatoka]

An extention of the sales tax requires a 60% "yes" vote.

The "pro" side has been giving absentee ballots forms to their side (to ensure they all vote) was a report on KFGO News last week.

[ScottM]

PS - The original plan was 3300 seats at $40 million. Now they're going to build 7000 seats for the same $40 million? Someone pointed that out to me and I can't explain it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They'll probably just buy more lawn chairs at WalMart.

However, I wonder if the costs also include any type of environmental studies/cleanup. One of the "neat" things about demolishing older buildings is finding remnants of prior, often long-forgotten, businesses such as dry cleaners, gas stations, repair shops, etc. who used the property as a dumping ground.

[ethanm]

As Mike McFeely's column states, the arena measures chance to pass is greater with a low voter turnout.

It's simple, really. People who are opposed to the arena say they don't care enough to go to the polls. People who support the arena say they will vote for sure.

Translation: The lower the turnout, the better the chance the proposal will pass because the results will be skewed toward arena supporters.

The Ice Sharks biggest problem (other than playing in a dump) was that they didn't win, and Fargo doesn't seem too willing to turnout for losers. NDSU women's basketball teams have had higher average than the men in the past largely because they men weren't that good. The Redhawks have consistently drawn fans, but they've also never had a bad year and don't have to compete with any other teams. The competition for fans is what I think will kill any hockey team in town especially since NDSU's move to D-I and the amount of marketing they will likely do anytime they bring an opponent in with any kind of name recognition. UND and the Grand Forks area have built a hockey following over 50+ years. These arena proposals that keep coming up in Fargo seem to forget this by wanting to put a team in a building that the community hasn't shown it can support either financially or capacity wise. I see this building as something that will be a drain on the taxpaper and will also take the Fargodome into the red due to the increased competition for acts/events.

[RD17]

Do you really think MSUM or Conc could have a D1 hockey program?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know someone that works at Concordia and the rumor has been that D-I hockey is something that the school might be considering as part of a long-term strategic plan. Who nows how valid that rumor might be, but I do think that since Concordia already has a men's and women's hockey program and isn't in the mess that MSUM's athletic department is, it's far more likely that the Cobbers would take the dive than MSUM.

I really think though that if there was any possible way to make it work, hockey is something that MSUM should seriously consider. The school will always struggle for fans, corporate dollars, and media attention with NDSU across the river. Hockey would give MSUM its own niche in the market and I think alumni and the serious hockey fans in the F-M area would really take to it. Just make sure that all home series are scheduled opposite of UND.

[UND-1]

This would really make a lot of sense for Moorhead. This year, MHD H S hockey probably could have sold out their games in that size arena. In Minnesota, it seems the state is more willing to chip in funding for arenas, especially if a state university benefits . (Are not both Bemidji and Duluth getting new arenas that are at least partiallly paid for from state funds?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think building a arena because high school teams could possible fill it up is a good reason. What if Moorhead sucks in two years and they get 500-700 people at their games. Everything goes in cycles and there is no way they are gonna be this good for a long time. Way too many people talking about how Moorhead could use it cause they packed the place this year. High school sports are too volatile. Fargo South is good now but they were average for how many years? If they build that arena on the preface that High School hockey will help float the boat..they are in trouble.

[sioux7]

It just blows my mind that everybody thinks they deserve a Ralph Engelstad Arena to play in. Hocky is not a glamorous sport. Why don't they take the money and build more smaller rinks. Hell you could put at least 8 sheets of ice in for that amount! My question still stands, if they can come up with $60 million and are so damn cofident that this will work make em pay for the whole thing. Sicotoka, those are great points. Never thought of that. The pro side is not telling the whole story here. The parking will be a huge issue. Those streets down there are already congested.

[mikejm]

The downtown rink proposal has nothing to do with hockey. Cityscapes could care less who uses the facility, 'cause they ain't going to have to pay for it. This whole deal is only a way for them to get control of a block of downtown they don't own, and won't pay market value for. If they didn't think the hockey parents would vote in enough numbers to ensure victory, it would be a basketball court proposal. If that scenario didn't work, it would be an arts facility.

The 3 May vote is to hijack public money to use for what should be a purely private undertaking. There is no public "need" being addressed by the arena as proposed. This is a scam that will financially benefit a few monied folk in Fargo and strap the taxpayers with a lot of hidden expenses for a long, long time.

[sioux7]

The downtown rink proposal has nothing to do with hockey. Cityscapes could care less who uses the facility, 'cause they ain't going to have to pay for it. This whole deal is only a way for them to get control of a block of downtown they don't own, and won't pay market value for. If they didn't think the hockey parents would vote in enough numbers to ensure victory, it would be a basketball court proposal. If that scenario didn't work, it would be an arts facility.

The 3 May vote is to hijack public money to use for what should be a purely private undertaking. There is no public "need" being addressed by the arena as proposed. This is a scam that will financially benefit a few monied folk in Fargo and strap the taxpayers with a lot of hidden expenses for a long, long time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree its a scam job. All smoke and mirrors.

[RD17]

My wife and I, as well as most of the parents of the kids who played on my son's hockey team last season, are among those who got absentee ballots from the pro side. I will be extremely disappointed if this thing doesn't pass. My oldest son will be playing for the Bruins within the next 7-8 years and deserves to play in a better venue than the Fargo Coliseum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

C'mon Dave.... everyone should vote for this thing because your son deserves to play in a better place? I'm assuming you're also willing to vote in favor of most any taxpayer funded project- no matter how illogical it might be- because someone elses kids "deserve" it? I'm not saying that all arenas or entertainment facilities funded by taxes are bad- but think about what you're saying here.

[Eskimos]

My oldest son will be playing for the Bruins within the next 7-8 years and deserves to play in a better venue than the Fargo Coliseum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes Dave, we know your son plays hockey and will play for the Bruins, since you seem to point that out a lot.

But that is not a great reason to take taxpayers' money and pay for an arena, that by most counts, no one really knows who will use it right now.

[bisonguy]

Sicatoka brings up some very good points. I have also heard that the arena does not even have a determined site. They could build it next to the Fargodome, downtown, 61st ave., wherever.

All the measure states is that if the arena is approved, Cityscapes will build a $60MM business/condo complex.

$40 MM still seems very high for an arena of this size.

How large, and for how much was the Little Ralph built in TRF? I would think a hockey arena suitable for HS that seats around 3,000 could be built for $10MM.

USHL in Fargo? Already tried it multiple times. Maybe in about ten years a team could be sustained.

[The Sicatoka]

How large, and for how much was the Little Ralph built in TRF? I would think a hockey arena suitable for HS that seats around 3,000 could be built for $10MM.

You are correct. "Little Ralph" in TRF holds about 3300 for about $15 MM.

http://www.reatrf.com/fact.htm

[The Sicatoka]

I have also heard that the arena does not even have a determined site. .... All the measure states is that if the arena is approved, Cityscapes will build a $60MM business/condo complex.

Now that I hadn't heard. All I'd ever heard is that Cityscapes wants the arena as an "anchor" for their complex downtown.

[mikejm]

Well...technically, the amendment to the Home Rule Charter does not specify the downtown location. However, the ballot question itself does: (here is what Fargo voters will face Tuesday):

Proposed Home Rule Charter Amendment

On May 3, 2005, the City of Fargo will hold an election on a citizen-initiated ballot question. The question will read as follows:

Shall Article 3(P)(3) and (4) of the Home Rule Charter of the City of Fargo be amended to continue

[bisonguy]

Well...technically, the amendment to the Home Rule Charter does not specify the downtown location. However, the ballot question itself does: (here is what Fargo voters will face Tuesday):

Proposed Home Rule Charter Amendment

On May 3, 2005, the City of Fargo will hold an election on a citizen-initiated ballot question. The question will read as follows:

Shall Article 3(P)(3) and (4) of the Home Rule Charter of the City of Fargo be amended to continue

[mikejm]

To think that the Fargo Coliseum is an acceptable venue for the Bruins and Spartans hockey teams is laughable. Hockey is a growing sport in Fargo, and we desperately need a nice arena not only for the high school teams, but also for the FM Jets. In addition to giving those three teams a decent place to play, the new arena would free up some ice time at the Coliseum. That, in turn, would help out the youth programs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think too many people would disagree with you that the Colliseum is a rathole and that Fargo needs more ice.

But the downtown plan is a boondoggle, the parking situation is untenable, and no high school needs a $40,000,000 home rink.

[The Sicatoka]

Maybe I don't have my legal mumbo-jumbo reading glasses on, but I don't see any mention of a "downtown location" anywhere in there. The "presently designated Renaissance Center" doesn't mean much- the original design of the Fargodome that was approved had little resemblence to what was actually built.

Agreed.

If "ice" and "suitable" is the issue, why not scale back to more like REA TRF size and put up a couple more buildings like the southwest arenas (the ones at I-94 and 45th Street) down in south Fargo (say down on 52nd Avenue by where the new HS is proposed to be)?

[bisonguy]

I heard a snippet on KFGO-AM today that KVLY was airing a story on the news tonight about how the city of Fargo is hiring consultants to study what sports are growing, and what sort of facilities are projected to be needed.

Looks like if HS hockey in Fargo needs a new facilty (which it does), it might be solved via a different route than a downtown arena.

[RD17]

[Cratter]

I find it funny that DaveK already knows SEVEN to EIGHT years from now, his kid will be playing hockey for the Bruins. (but will never win a state championship of course thanks to GF. ).

httphe already knows://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?sh...517entry89517

[CoteauRinkRat]

But what's even funnier is that you (and others) just assume one of the two GF schools will win state every single year... just because they happen to call GF home? 

Typical GF hockey arrogance. 

I was guilty of it too when I was a snotty little punk kid growing up in GF. I disrespected every other team in the state... and had the audacity to wonder why the rest of the state hated us so much. Now I get it, now that I'm much older and wiser.

Just for the record... the GF Supras mites team only lost two games this past season. One of them was to a team from Canada, the other was against my son's team. So, uhhhh... yeah, I think it's a bit premature for you to completely rule out the possibility that South might beat one of your precious GF schools in state when my son gets to that level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think someone needs to relax a little bit.

This thread doesn't need to be turned into another discussion of GF hockey vs. Fargo hockey.

[UND-1]