Student Hockey Seats May Go

[Fedorov]

As stated before, ND residents are paying some of the costs of UND. Other costs are paid by alumni. What happens in the future when the students are the alumni? I'm not just talking about sports, but everything involved. I have been a student for a long time (maybe even longer than Diggler) and I have been through Baker and Chucky. They have been completely different towards the students in my eyes and I know I would never contribute any money with Chucky around.

[Fedorov]

What I don't get is why UND's student government appears so intent on advancing proposals designed to encourage the swearers and standers when they are probably only a small minority of student hockey fans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have yet to see any evidence for this connection/intent.

[iramurphy]

Unfortunately, we don't know what prompted the letter from the UND alumni that triggered Kupchella's response.

The organized profane cheers are a problem. I don't know how much of a problem standing students represent because I don't sit on that side of the arena and therefore don't deal with it.

What I don't get is why UND's student government appears so intent on advancing proposals designed to encourage the swearers and standers when they are probably only a small minority of student hockey fans. I would think that a lot of student hockey fans would be upset by that.

There needs to be a concerted, coordinated effort from President Kuchella's office, the REA, UND student government, the alumni association and the athletic department to work together to present some workable solutions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I assume a UND alumnus maybe. I doubt the UND alumni office. Bottom line... the problem still needs to be clearly defined. Then the groups you mentioned can work on it.

I am still wondering... what is the deal with students standing during games?

[Diggler]

There needs to be a concerted, coordinated effort from President Kuchella's office, the REA, UND student government, the alumni association and the athletic department to work together to present some workable solutions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And unless I'm mistaken, the student government seems to be the only ones doing anything. They talked about it today I believe. Everyone else seems to be sitting around believing the trolley train from the Land of Make Believe will deliver King Friday, Queen Saturday and Prince Tuesday to solve all the problems.

[PCM]

And unless I'm mistaken, the student government seems to be the only ones doing anything.  They talked about it today I believe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the problem. Talking doesn't solve anything. Advancing impractical proposals doesn't solve anything. Everyone's been talking and throwing out ideas for years. Where has it gotten us? We're still talking and arguing about the same things.

[Fedorov]

That's the problem. Talking doesn't solve anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The last time I checked, the students don't have the ability to do anything else.

[Cratter]

I assume a UND alumnus maybe. I doubt the UND alumni office. Bottom line... the problem still needs to be clearly defined. Then the groups you mentioned can work on it.

I am still wondering... what is the deal with students standing during games?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll play Kupchella. I believe the problem is mainly the coordinated swearing chants. He doesn't want that image for the university portrayed on TV and to others.

That said, I don't think there is a viable solution. You'd have to throw out the entire student section or broke it up, which he has proposed. So my guess, people will talk, and nothing will change. Which doesn't both me.

[Diggler]

That's the problem. Talking doesn't solve anything. Advancing impractical proposals doesn't solve anything. Everyone's been talking and throwing out ideas for years. Where has it gotten us? We're still talking and arguing about the same things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does more than whining and picking your a$$ though. The student government could be proposing that everyone but students be kicked out of the arena, stripper poles be installed in the concourse and Redwing be made GM of REA. Despite the fact that this would be completely idiotic and would never happen, it would be more constructive then what other people are doing, nothing.

It seems to me that the fact that the student government is making a proposal, no matter how far fetched, means they are willing to talk. I haven't heard anyone else who needs to be in on the discussion say or do anything of this sort. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm probably not.

[Fedorov]

Does more than whining and picking your a$$ though. The student government could be proposing that everyone but students be kicked out of the arena, stripper poles be installed in the concourse and Redwing be made GM of REA.  Despite the fact that this would be completely idiotic and would never happen, it would be more constructive then what other people are doing, nothing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great, I guess we will be greated by a Mapletoft statue now.

[PCM]

This 2003 NCAA Report On the Sportsmanship and Fan Behavior Summit makes for interesting reading. Here are a few selected highlights:

• While messages about appropriate fan behavior must come from the top down, institutions should enlist the support of student leaders to champion the message to their peers. There needs to be peer consensus that certain behaviors are unacceptable before students will change the way they act.
  
  
  
• The University of Maryland created a lottery for student seating in coveted areas. Student groups could place their names in the lottery if they agreed to occupy these seats and be role models for good sportsmanship. Because they are highly prized seats, students have been eager to participate, and because they were representing their organizations, students have been determined to represent them positively.
  
  
  
• At Ohio State, egregious acts of poor fan behavior can lead to the loss of season-ticket privileges for students and fans. Other deterrents that may be particularly effective in preventing fan violence within and outside the arena are academic suspension or expulsion and financial penalties that prevent registering for classes the following term unless paid.
  
  
  
• Rather than seating athletics department staff as a part of their complimentary admissions privileges to home contests in one section, some staff members at North Texas are seated in various areas throughout the student sections. While staff members are not technically on duty, their presence can help curb poor fan behavior. Similarly, institutions can use their student-affairs staff members to more formally monitor and address fan behavior during contests.
  

Few student-athletes, fans, coaches or administrators want their contests to be conducted in calm and quiet environments. A loud, supportive and boisterous crowd is desired by many and envied by others. Attentive and energized crowds can act as a 12th or sixth player in football or basketball, respectively. However, crowds can maintain those qualities while still being responsible. This can be achieved by communicating clear and unmixed messages about appropriate fan behavior, the development of consistently applied consequences for spectator aggression and better institutional and community management of alcohol abuse.

[PCM]

It seems to me that the fact that the student government is making a proposal, no matter how far fetched, means they are willing to talk.  I haven't heard anyone else who needs to be in on the discussion say or do anything of this sort. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm probably not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what I don't understand about your position. You say that those who insist on standing and swearing are in the minority. You say that they are ruining things for the students who are willing to cooperate in order to maintain what they have.

And yet, when your government puts forth a proposal that encourages and rewards the disruptive behavior by these students, you don't criticize the student government, you criticize those who find fault with their proposal -- at the same time you admit that it's worse than useless.

How does that work? Are you and others who agree with you going to the student senate meetings and telling your elected officials to stop representing the minority and start representing the majority? Because as far as I can tell, your student government is paying no attention whatsoever to you.

[Diggler]

Nah, I'm too lazy to do that.

I just think that the student government making this proposal is a good first step to maybe finding a solution. Somebody had to take the first step and to me it is the student government who did it. Now somebody else has to take the second step, unless it is expected that the students just do everything.

[206Jockey]

Just wanted to clear up a couple things,

First the letter that was written to president kupkhella was not from an alumni. It was from a visitor who lives in North Dakota but not specify he was an alumni.

Second nothing that student government is proposing is idiotic or student or unreasonable. Re-seating an arena is always a good idea to take away the "I own these seats" mentality and is done in major NHL caliber arenas such as REA.

Lastly for the people who say that the University is the people of North Dakota's university because the people of North Dakota pay for it. They are "kind of" right, but it is not as much of their University as it is the students. I totally understand that they help the UND and thank them for that. But sorry students do more...I'll let the data speak for itself. In Fiscal year 04 Tuition and fee's made up 27% of the revenue for the UND. 22% was made up of State Appropriations. Therefore if 13,500 students people pay for 27 percent of the total revenue and 633,837 people of North Dakota pay for 22%....sure seems like more of the money falls on the students back, but I'll let you do the math. Bottom line is there is alot at stake for everyone involved. Students need North Dakota, and North Dakota NEEDS the Students of UND and so does Grand Forks

So before you go saying how outlandish and dumb student government leaders ideas are realize who it affects the most. They are trying to help the problem and are doing more and putting more time into the problem then anyone else. I applaud them for fighting the fight and looking at all possibilities

[BringDeanBack]

Just wanted to clear up a couple things,

First the letter that was written to president kupkhella was not from an alumni. It was from a visitor who lives in North Dakota but not specify he was an alumni.

Second nothing that student government is proposing is idiotic or student or unreasonable. Re-seating an arena is always a good idea to take away the "I own these seats" mentality and is done in major NHL caliber arenas such as REA.

Lastly for the people who say that the University is the people of North Dakota's university because the people of North Dakota pay for it. They are "kind of" right, but it is not as much of their University as it is the students. I totally understand that they help the UND and thank them for that. But sorry students do more...I'll let the data speak for itself. In Fiscal year 04 Tuition and fee's made up 27% of the revenue for the UND. 22% was made up of State Appropriations. Therefore if 13,500 students people pay for 27 percent of the total revenue and 633,837 people of North Dakota pay for 22%....sure seems like more of the money falls on the students back, but I'll let you do the math. Bottom line is there is alot at stake for everyone involved. Students need North Dakota, and North Dakota NEEDS the Students of UND and so does Grand Forks 

So before you go saying how outlandish and dumb student government leaders ideas are realize who it affects the most. They are trying to help the problem and are doing more and putting more time into the problem then anyone else. I applaud them for fighting the fight and looking at all possibilities

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Assuming your numbers are correct, how much of that 27% truly comes from student pockets? In other words, how much of it is via subsidized loans, grants, or scholarships from alumni. I would be willing to bet that the student versus taxpayer number may be much closer to being even.

[PCM]

This item was in today's Grand Forks Herald UND Notebook.

Sportsmanship targeted

At the recent Western Collegiate Hockey Association meeting, the league agreed to form a sportsmanship committee.

"All 10 of the schools believe that fan behavior is a serious issue," UND interim athletic director Phil Harmeson said.

The committee will be chaired by Minnesota athletic director Joel Maturi.

[PCM]

Nah, I'm too lazy to do that.

Which would explain why you're not being represented.

I just think that the student government making this proposal is a good first step to maybe finding a solution.

If students started throwing trash on the ice during hockey games, would your response be, "At least students are doing something to improve the atmosphere"?

What the student government proposed is counterproductive because the focus remains on allowing students to stand and swear. It encourages the people causing the problems to continue to cause the problems. That's not helpful. That's not useful. It solves nothing.

[CoteauRinkRat]

PCM

I would like to know your proposal to fixing the problems and issues.

I don't like the student's proposal either, but I'm not going to say it solves nothing and it just promotes swearing and standing.

[PCM]

First the letter that was written to president kupkhella was not from an alumni. It was from a visitor who lives in North Dakota but not specify he was an alumni.

Which reinforces my point about the image fan behavior reflects on UND outside of the state.

Lastly for the people who say that the University is the people of North Dakota's university because the people of North Dakota pay for it. They are "kind of" right, but it is not as much of their University as it is the students.

Assuming your figures are correct, there's 73 percent of the budget that students don't pay for. Some of that is federal money that the state's congressional delegation works in concert with UND's administration to bring in. Some of it is private money that comes from alumni donations, business partnersships and research contracts.

And as BringDeanBack pointed out, a large part of the student money is from subsidized loans that exist because North Dakota's federal and state elected officials work to get them funded at the behest of voters. And then there are the alumni scholarships that, again, someone has to work to bring in.

None of this happens by itself. While there is student involvement in bringing money to the university, the lion's share of the work at keeping the dollars flowing is done by university staff, alumni and elected officials. Without their efforts and public support, UND would cease to exist as a state institution.

[The Sicatoka]

From the USA Today article (link above):

Big Ten's last resort on taunting: Disbanding student sections

The Big Ten Conference passed a rule last summer that it hopes will rein in students who taunt individual opposing players.

"We're aware that the use of obscenities at games is a big issue in certain places," Big Ten Commissioner Jim Delany says. "No one feels good about it."

...

The conference devised a three-strike system. The first time a school's student section trespasses on the rule, the school is warned privately. The second time it is warned publicly. And the third time it is required to disband the section.

"That's not a free speech issue," Delany says. "No one has a constitutional right to attend a basketball game."

Delany says a couple of Big Ten schools have been warned privately. He declined to name them -- "or else it isn't private."

He says those schools are putting pressure on their student sections to stop. If the behavior persists, the schools will be named publicly and have one more chance. Delany says dissolving student sections is more than fair as a last resort. "If we don't do that, when these students sit in prime locations close to the court, then we're enabling them to do what they're doing."

Now note that the WCHA is looking at the issue (PCM post above) and the AD at Minnesota (a school subject to this Big Ten policy) is leading the committee looking at it.

My guess is that Kupchella didn't come up with the "disband the student section" idea on his own. My guess is that he heard it from talking to folks at Minnesota and Wisconsin who may be subject to it under Big Ten policy.

[PCM]

I would like to know your proposal to fixing the problems and issues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've posted a lot of my thoughts on this in the past, as have others. When I get time, I'll try to pull some of my ideas together in what I hope is a single, coherent post. In the meantime, some of the ideas I posted above from the 2003 NCAA Report On the Sportsmanship and Fan Behavior Summit provide some good food for thought on what might be done.

[Diggler]

If students started throwing trash on the ice during hockey games, would your response be, "At least students are doing something to improve the atmosphere"?

Yes, that's exactly what I would say.

Everybody whines about the students. The students do something. Everybody whines that it doesn't do any good. The students are doing things, whether you think it's productive or not, it is. Excuse me for having a positive outlook on this situation and what has happened, instead of being so damn bitter and cynical about every f^cking thing the student government does or doesn't do.

[Sioux-cia]

PCM

I would like to know your proposal to fixing the problems and issues. 

I don't like the student's proposal either, but I'm not going to say it solves nothing and it just promotes swearing and standing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A lot of proposals have been posted within this thread, some good, some not so good and some outrageous. So other than agreeing with some, belittling others, creating riffs amongst ourselves, etc. what can we do with them? I keep reading about the Student Council not doing a good job, at least doing something, not being able to do anything and we just a keep on posting. Again, what can WE do? I'm ready, willing and able to get off my duff and do more than this to keep the student section intact and stop the profanity.

[PCM]

Everybody whines about the students.

No, not "everybody." In case you haven't noticed, the students get a lot of support around here.

The students do something. Everybody whines that it doesn't do any good.

No, not everybody. In my opinion, the latest proposal from UND's student government is counterproductive because it does nothing to address the behavior that's generating the complaints. In my view, it puts a Band Aid on the problem and encourages the behavior.

Obviously, not everyone agrees with me. But nobody has posted anything here that changes my opinion.

The students are doing things, whether you think it's productive or not, it is.

I know that the students have advanced some excellent ideas and that they have taken action to improve the atmosphere at the games. I commend them for that. Until this past season, I felt that real progress was being made.

But now we seem to be going backward, not forward. I'm not going to be hypocritical and praise student government for advancing a proposal that I consider unrealistic and counterproductive.

[CoteauRinkRat]

A lot of proposals have been posted within this thread, some good, some not so good and some outrageous.  So other than agreeing with some, belittling others, creating riffs amongst ourselves, etc. what can we do with them? I keep reading about the Student Council not doing a good job, at least doing something, not being able to do anything and we just a keep on posting.  Again, what can WE do? I'm ready, willing and able to get off my duff and do more than this to keep the student section intact and stop the profanity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have read this thread also and have seen people's points of views and their proposals. I was just asking the question to PCM because I guess I didn't understand what exactly he would propose, because I'm not sure what would be a good remedy for this problem either.

[Fedorov]

Until this past season, I felt that real progress was being made.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you are mainly looking at this past season, consider how the tickets were distributed. As for the student senate representing the students, I think that is crap. Do you really feel like the US government is really representing you and doing things that you want? Even when you find that odd person that might want to make all of these great changes, the system prevents it.

For the sake of keeping PCM happy:

Diggler, Yzerman wants to meet you tonight. He said he is in a hurry and can only meet you at the Olympic Ice enterance at 1 a.m. Come alone.