Column in the Michigan School Newspaper

[redwing77]

The easiest thing to adress is the basketball statement. Redwing said it best. Basketball sucks. I'm here talking in a hockey forum. I'm not saying that UND and NDSU don't get fired up when they play in basketball, and the high school tournament is definitely exciting, but compared to the rest of the country, it's not much. I just spent a season covering Big Ten hoops, a completely different feeling. The environment at some campuses is just unreal. It can't compare. The last basketball prospect North Dakota put out of any worth was Jeff Boschee, who I absolutely loved. But not enough people care to make basketball really hardcore. And I doubt many of you here would disagree with me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but everything is relative. What would you expect from a state of 700k? There's close to that in Boston proper alone.

We aren't in the Big 10. ND will never be there. But what we do have we are prideful of and we think is good in its own way. The rest of the country doesn't need to agree with this, but they should respect it. Perspectives like you've published only serve to perpetuate the stigma that North Dakota is nothing more than "flyover country."

I like to think that ND isn't flyover country. It has its own flavor, atmosphere, and it brings a nice way of life to that table that few outside of the area would understand. Instead, all they see are decrepid farmhouses, unflattering media accounts, and the poor movie by the Coen brothers which leads them to believe that that is what we are all about.

Don't perpetuate the belief.

[Cratter]

I find it comical that so many people care what one person thinks of North Dakota and writes about it. The guy has a right to his opinions and has the right to have them published in his school newspaper. If you read his column it isn't really ND bashing, the only problem I have is the "Nazi" part.

Some people don't like North Dakota. I don't think there is a reason to write to him about how you disagree with his opinion.

[Sioux-cia]

The easiest thing to adress is the basketball statement. Redwing said it best. Basketball sucks. I'm here talking in a hockey forum. I'm not saying that UND and NDSU don't get fired up when they play in basketball, and the high school tournament is definitely exciting, but compared to the rest of the country, it's not much. I just spent a season covering Big Ten hoops, a completely different feeling. The environment at some campuses is just unreal. It can't compare. The last basketball prospect North Dakota put out of any worth was Jeff Boschee, who I absolutely loved. But not enough people care to make basketball really hardcore. And I doubt many of you here would disagree with me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So the easiest thing to address is the basketball statement? Why can't you answer the 'the only thing North Dakota has is hockey statement? Can it be you lack the maturity to admit you are wrong?

Why can't you address the Ralph Engelstad is known as a Nazi sympathizer statement? Could it be because this is a false statement and, as a so-called journalist, admitting your were wrong to write this and have it printed would show you to not be a journalist at all but rather an immature, moron. As PCM stated in an earlier post, you owe the Engelstad family an apology. Did you know Mr. Engelstad was a quiet philanthropist? He gave a lot of money to fund things other than hockey. Why don't you use your education and research what this man has contributed to society and print that along with your retraction regarding your 'Nazi sympathizer' statement. Be assured, if I ever see anything with your byline, I'll trash it. You lack credibiltiy.

[PCM]

I'm not saying that UND and NDSU don't get fired up when they play in basketball, and the high school tournament is definitely exciting, but compared to the rest of the country, it's not much. I just spent a season covering Big Ten hoops, a completely different feeling. The environment at some campuses is just unreal. It can't compare.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is where you make your big mistake. As redwing77 notes, it's all relative.

When I attended South Dakota State -- primarily a basketball school -- I never sat in a USD-SDSU game in Frost Arena thinking, "Gee, if only I went to a Division I school, I'd be seeing a much better game and having more fun." It never occurred to me that I was missing out on anything by attending a Division II school.

For me, the games in which the Jackrabbits and Coyotes played were as good as it got. Aside from the emotion and intense rivalry, part of the excitement was seeing the best high school players in South Dakota playing against each other.

One Jackrabbit player was good friend of mine from my home town. Another player lived across the hall from me in the dorm, and I became friends with him, too. These players were the cream of the crop from Class A and Class B state tournaments I'd attended or watched on TV. I felt I had a personal attachment to the players and, therefore, the game. I'm not going to belittle Michigan students just because they didn't experience basketball the way that I did.

The same goes for some of the Sioux playoff games I've atteneded at the Alerus Center in Grand Forks. I've witnessed some terrific football games at which I've literally screamed myself hoarse. I never think about how much better a Michigan game would be, although I don't doubt that they are many times better in terms of spectacle, atmosphere and quality of play. If you're a football fan, the best you can get at a school the size of UND in a town the size of Grand Forks is pretty darn good.

I arrived in Grand Forks in 1992, about the time that the Sioux football program began its rise from mediocrity to surpass NDSU and begin its drive toward a national title. Sure, playing in national bowl game on New Year's Day is a much bigger deal. And winning the Super Bowl is an even bigger deal than that. But for Sioux fans watching their team win its first-ever national championship, there was nothing bigger or better or more special.

You need to put things in their proper perspective. Everyone in North Dakota knows that college football and basketball here isn't a big deal to the rest of the country. So what? It doesn't stop the fans from enjoying the games or the players from enjoying their accomplishments.

[PCM]

I don't think there is a reason to write to him about how you disagree with his opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You defend his right to state his opinion, but then slam those who express an opinion disagreeing with his. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Cratter]

You defend his right to state his opinion, but then slam those who express an opinion disagreeing with his. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry . I didn't realize I "slammed" those who expressed their opinions.

[FgoWolve]

You guys are missing the point. I know all of you have all these wonderful memories from South Dakota, or North Dakota, or wherever. I have plenty Bison-Sioux football memories myself that stick up there with some of my favorite Michigan memories. The pride and the passion is just the same, I understand that completely. But I was writing to a Michigan campus. I have to put things into national perspective there, because there's a national spotlight on that campus. Comparatively, it really doesn't compare (except for hockey). North Dakota does get reduced to a flyover state (as sad as it makes me), at least on the national sports radar. That's what I was trying to tell all my students. Appreciate what you've got now, and don't take it for granted. There aren't many campuses where you bump into Braylon Edwards and Michael Phelps from time to time. Don't think that all those athletes owe you something. Appreciate that fact that they're there.

Now, I know, I've been afraid to mention it so far, but I have to mention the Engelstad comment. I absolutely realized how big of a philanthropist Engelstad was before I wrote that column. I grew up in the state obviously. I know all the great things he did and plenty of people look at him as nothing less than a hero...But, that doesn't mean that image is still out there. You can deny it all you want, and I realize that he got a bad rap for most of it, but most people that recognize that name outside the state remember him that way. That's not a false statement. I didn't call him a Nazi sympathizer, I just said he is remembered that way. I was careful how to word that one. I was talking to a friend of mine at Minnesota-Duluth and he says students still chant stuff like that at games, cause they know it's a sore spot. It doesn't mean either of us agree with it. And as far out as Michigan, people just think he's a straight-up Nazi sometimes. I tell them otherwise as much as I can, but that doesn't mean that the perception does not exist outside the state, and it's sad that it does.

[Uncle_Rico]

And as far out as Michigan, people just think he's a straight-up Nazi sometimes. I tell them otherwise as much as I can, but that doesn't mean that the perception does not exist outside the state, and it's sad that it does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you trying to tell us that you tell these people, who think Ralph was a Nazi, otherwise as much as you can, and then write what you did? You're kind of contradicting yourself there pal. Also, you forgot to mention in your little acticle that Michigan shared the National Championship with Nebraska in 98, you must have forgotten that part. GO BUCKEYES!!!!

[sioux7]

You guys are missing the point. I know all of you have all these wonderful memories from South Dakota, or North Dakota, or wherever. I have plenty Bison-Sioux football memories myself that stick up there with some of my favorite Michigan memories. The pride and the passion is just the same, I understand that completely. But I was writing to a Michigan campus. I have to put things into national perspective there, because there's a national spotlight on that campus. Comparatively, it really doesn't compare (except for hockey). North Dakota does get reduced to a flyover state (as sad as it makes me), at least on the national sports radar. That's what I was trying to tell all my students. Appreciate what you've got now, and don't take it for granted. There aren't many campuses where you bump into Braylon Edwards and Michael Phelps from time to time. Don't think that all those athletes owe you something. Appreciate that fact that they're there.

Now, I know, I've been afraid to mention it so far, but I have to mention the Engelstad comment. I absolutely realized how big of a philanthropist Engelstad was before I wrote that column. I grew up in the state obviously. I know all the great things he did and plenty of people look at him as nothing less than a hero...But, that doesn't mean that image is still out there. You can deny it all you want, and I realize that he got a bad rap for most of it, but most people that recognize that name outside the state remember him that way. That's not a false statement. I didn't call him a Nazi sympathizer, I just said he is remembered that way. I was careful how to word that one. I was talking to a friend of mine at Minnesota-Duluth and he says students still chant stuff like that at games, cause they know it's a sore spot. It doesn't mean either of us agree with it. And as far out as Michigan, people just think he's a straight-up Nazi sometimes. I tell them otherwise as much as I can, but that doesn't mean that the perception does not exist outside the state, and it's sad that it does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speaking of image thing how is the Michigan booster situation going on with Webber?

[Fedorov]

Comparatively, it really doesn't compare (except for hockey).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many people go to one of your home hockey games?

[Fedorov]

but most people that recognize that name outside the state remember him that way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you are saying that you, as a writer, are afraid to correct public misconceptions. Wow, you must be so talented. Why bother writing anything if you are only willing to confirm what other people already think? Why didn't you write about how many cars were stolen while you wrote the column?

[jimdahl]

You guys are missing the point. I know all of you have all these wonderful memories from South Dakota, or North Dakota, or wherever. I have plenty Bison-Sioux football memories myself that stick up there with some of my favorite Michigan memories. The pride and the passion is just the same, I understand that completely. But I was writing to a Michigan campus. I have to put things into national perspective there, because there's a national spotlight on that campus.

What we're all questioning is why reassuring the Michigan campus about their "national importance" in sports had to involve slamming UND, a small D-II school that doesn't really compete on any of the same stages. It's a somewhat rhetorical question, in that the timing of the article and the digs within it makes it obvious that the motivation was UND's success in the NCAA hockey tournament.

UND has been out there going to championships (including in a sport in which it competes with Michigan) while Michigan hasn't. Your article stated that you hate to see UND do well, which makes it seem like UND's success got under your skin to the point that you felt compelled to write an article to reassure the world that Michigan athletics are inherently superior to North Dakota athletics because they have more fans. I suspect 97% of your Ann Arbor readers wondered why the hell you were even comparing Michigan to UND, and you failed to convince us (any newly minted Michigan fans, feel free to correct me).

[bigmrg74]

Are you trying to tell us that you tell these people, who think Ralph was a Nazi, otherwise as much as you can, and then write what you did? You're kind of contradicting yourself there pal. Also, you forgot to mention in your little acticle that Michigan shared the National Championship with Nebraska in 98, you must have forgotten that part. GO BUCKEYES!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nebraska only got that championship because Osborne was retiring that season. Any other year, Michigan would have been the outright champion. Of course they should go to a playoff system like every other freakin' college sport, but that's beside the point.

[sioux7]

Nebraska only got that championship because Osborne was retiring that season. Any other year, Michigan would have been the outright champion. Of course they should go to a playoff system like every other freakin' college sport, but that's beside the point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WTF!!!? Explain that one.

[The Sicatoka]

... UND's success got under your skin to the point that you felt compelled to write an article reassuring the world that Michigan athletics are inherently superior to North Dakota athletics ...

Close, very close, Jim.

It should've said:

"... UND's success got under your skin to the point that you felt compelled to write an article reassuring yourself that Michigan athletics are inherently superior to North Dakota athletics ... "

[PCM]

You guys are missing the point.

I understand the point because it's the same one I've made to my children. They've been to Sioux football games, Sioux hockey games and Sioux basketball games. They've experienced the thrill of UND winning national championships in hockey, football an basketball. They've had Sioux athletes visit them in their classes in school, some of whom they've seen on TV playing in the NHL and NFL.

Where I grew up in South Dakota, we had nothing that came close to this. When the local high school basketball star shot baskets with us at our neighborhood court, we considered that a big deal. In my mind, it's still a fond memory.

So I tell my children that they should appreciate what they have here in Grand Forks because it's something special, something that most kids never experience.

The difference between how you make your point and how I make my point is that I don't tear down my hometown in the process. I don't feel the need to exaggerate the negatives to build up the positives. I don't use misconceptions that I know are false to make my case. You do, and that's why North Dakotans and Sioux fans take exception to your column.

Now, I know, I've been afraid to mention it so far, but I have to mention the Engelstad comment. I absolutely realized how big of a philanthropist Engelstad was before I wrote that column. I grew up in the state obviously. I know all the great things he did and plenty of people look at him as nothing less than a hero...But, that doesn't mean that image is still out there. You can deny it all you want, and I realize that he got a bad rap for most of it, but most people that recognize that name outside the state remember him that way. That's not a false statement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is where you lose my respect, Josh. As a journalist, your job is to reveal the truth and provide accurate information, not to reinforce misconceptions or repeat falsehoods. How can anyone outside North Dakota expect to know anything different about Ralph Engelstad when you choose to follow the herd by repeating a misconception that you know is wrong? Your response to this criticism is, at best, disingenuous.

[YaneA]

You guys are missing the point. I know all of you have all these wonderful memories from South Dakota, or North Dakota, or wherever. I have plenty Bison-Sioux football memories myself that stick up there with some of my favorite Michigan memories. The pride and the passion is just the same, I understand that completely. But I was writing to a Michigan campus. I have to put things into national perspective there, because there's a national spotlight on that campus. Comparatively, it really doesn't compare (except for hockey). North Dakota does get reduced to a flyover state (as sad as it makes me), at least on the national sports radar. That's what I was trying to tell all my students. Appreciate what you've got now, and don't take it for granted. There aren't many campuses where you bump into Braylon Edwards and Michael Phelps from time to time. Don't think that all those athletes owe you something. Appreciate that fact that they're there.

Now, I know, I've been afraid to mention it so far, but I have to mention the Engelstad comment. I absolutely realized how big of a philanthropist Engelstad was before I wrote that column. I grew up in the state obviously. I know all the great things he did and plenty of people look at him as nothing less than a hero...But, that doesn't mean that image is still out there. You can deny it all you want, and I realize that he got a bad rap for most of it, but most people that recognize that name outside the state remember him that way. That's not a false statement. I didn't call him a Nazi sympathizer, I just said he is remembered that way. I was careful how to word that one. I was talking to a friend of mine at Minnesota-Duluth and he says students still chant stuff like that at games, cause they know it's a sore spot. It doesn't mean either of us agree with it. And as far out as Michigan, people just think he's a straight-up Nazi sometimes. I tell them otherwise as much as I can, but that doesn't mean that the perception does not exist outside the state, and it's sad that it does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Remedial journalism 101, Josh: When reporters carefully choose their words, it should not be a tactic for obscuring the truth. Perhaps Ralph is remembered by some lesser informed individuals that way but you yourself admit that you know the truth about his philanthropy and his character. I think you had the duty to share with your readers that truth.

Remedial psych 101: When a boy from a mere fly-over state goes to University of Michigan he may feel that he doesn't quite fit in there, that he isn't quite good enough to be there. So, the fastest way for him to convince himself and the Go Blue crowd that he is worthy of being one of them, is to renounce his "citizenship" in the fly-over state by bashing it.

Man, I can't believe Dr. Phil has a TV show and I don't!

[PCM]

Man, I can't believe Dr. Phil has a TV show and I don't!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me either.

I also can't believe that you need any help from me in telling off your ex-husband.

[jk]

I don't feel like starting a new thread for this, and this one is a typical worthless off-season thread anyway, so ...

I work with a guy from Norway, and he pointed out to me that Norway beat China today in the World Championships 25-1. I went to the IIHF site and found the boxscore: they outshot 'em 89-7. After Norway got to 15-0 (the worst lead in hockey), they eased up, and China started the comeback with a goal by Fu from Hu. China's main goalie, Yu, stopped 45 of 64 shots.

Did Morinville sneak over there to coach Norway?

(I didn't make up any names.)

[PCM]

I don't feel like starting a new thread for this, and this one is a typical worthless off-season thread anyway, so ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't worry, jk. Your post fits right in with this thread. Because the game was international in scope and little Norway beat the largest country in the world, it tops any athletic event in which Michigan has ever been involved.

[Sioux-cia]

I absolutely realized how big of a philanthropist Engelstad was before I wrote that column. I grew up in the state obviously. I know all the great things he did and plenty of people look at him as nothing less than a hero...But, that doesn't mean that image is still out there. You can deny it all you want, and I realize that he got a bad rap for most of it, but most people that recognize that name outside the state remember him that way. That's not a false statement. I didn't call him a Nazi sympathizer, I just said he is remembered that way. I was careful how to word that one. I was talking to a friend of mine at Minnesota-Duluth and he says students still chant stuff like that at games, cause they know it's a sore spot. It doesn't mean either of us agree with it. And as far out as Michigan, people just think he's a straight-up Nazi sometimes. I tell them otherwise as much as I can, but that doesn't mean that the perception does not exist outside the state, and it's sad that it does.

So, in order to fit in with misinformed persons 'as far out as Michigan', you make a conscious decision to not correct the misconception in print. You have the perfect venue to tell persons,

how big of a philanthropist Engelstad was before I wrote that column. I grew up in the state obviously. I know all the great things he did and plenty of people look at him as nothing less than a hero...

. For reasons of sensationalism and as a ploy to spice up your "article", you perpetuate the myth. Do you remember your mother telling you that there is such a thing as lying by omission? Your not telling what you know to be the truth about Mr. Englestad is the same as stating he is a Nazi. You can't get around that. If you know anyone with a sense of ethics in your journalism program, ask for her/him what they believe you did when you wrote people think Mr. Englestad was a Nazi sympathizer without any disclaimer on your part. As YaneA has posted,

When a boy from a mere fly-over state goes to University of Michigan he may feel that he doesn't quite fit in there, that he isn't quite good enough to be there. So, the fastest way for him to convince himself and the Go Blue crowd that he is worthy of being one of them, is to renounce his "citizenship" in the fly-over state by bashing it.

When your a man, maybe, you'll realize that you owe an apology to the Englestad family.

[BismarckFan]

First of all, you sound like a real "money sports" lover who probably holds so called "sports heros" over and above our real and true heros in Afganistan and Iraq. Second of all. the Rose Bowl is about as exciting to a Grand Forks native such as myself as any football or baseball game... long periods of boredom interspersed with 5 seconds of play. And there is nothing wrong with basketball that full pads, elimination of most fouls, and a limit of one time out per quarter wouldn't cure. The one guy I knew personally who wanted to play hockey for Michigan dislocated his shoulder in juniors and quit. You truely have no clue how much we North Dakotans love our state and its people. And we usually have littel bad to say about others, except when provoked by such as yourself. Notice I didn't call anyone an idiot; that's the first indication of a person's intelligence.

First of all, I'd like to defend Mr. Joshua Q. Holman. I know the kid quite well, and he's not quite the satanist you message board nerds make him out to be.

Second of all, if you would rather be at braly stadium in december than the rose bowl in jan, you are an idiot.

If you would rather be at the Betty for an NCC basketball tournament than the United Center for the Big Ten tourney, you are an idiot.

If you think UND has athletic tradition that even compares to Michigan's in any sport other than hockey, you are an idiot.

Michigan has the NBA, NHL, NFL and Major League Baseball; North Dakota has the Northern League.

Quit kidding yourselves guys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[ESPNInsider]

First of all, you sound like a real "money sports" lover who probably holds so called "sports heros" over and above our real and true heros in Afganistan and Iraq. Second of all. the Rose Bowl is about as exciting to a Grand Forks native such as myself as any football or baseball game... long periods of boredom interspersed with 5 seconds of play. And there is nothing wrong with basketball that full pads, elimination of most fouls, and a limit of one time out per quarter wouldn't cure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First off, I would't go saying things about him like he holds "Sports heros" over soldiers as I assume you have no idea how he feels about this.

Secondly, I know thousands of people from GF that would disagree with you about the Rose Bowl. That one just doesn't make much sense to me.

[HockeyMom]

You need to put things in their proper perspective. Everyone in North Dakota knows that college football and basketball here isn't a big deal to the rest of the country. So what? It doesn't stop the fans from enjoying the games or the players from enjoying their accomplishments.

My greatest football memory was when Mike Mooney stripped the ball, we scored and beat the Bison for the first time in 13 years. The entire student section ran out on the field and ripped the goal post down. I don't know if I'll ever feel emotion like that again in my life. It was incredible to be in Memorial Stadium and be a part of that. I lost my voice for about 3 days.

I guess my point is that you really can't choose what you love in this life, but you shouldn't belittle someone because you think what you love is better than what someone else loves.

[Sioux-cia]

Secondly, I know thousands of people from GF that would disagree with you about the Rose Bowl.

Really? I've lived in GF for 31 years and don't know thousands of people who live here, let alone, thousands that watch the Rose Bowl. You must be some social butterfly