The Division I Question? New Answer?

[star2city]

i'll take your first point, but neither UND nor NDSU is going to make it to the big dance barring a real shakeup somewhere

#2 Idaho was/is never going to move back down, you sound like a delusional Grizzly Fan

#3 The Big Sky has long seen teams come and go, check their history.

[Corella]

Are you serious, you don't think that SDSU has an advantage over you in basketball?

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The histories of the 2 men's basketball programs are actually quite similar in NCAA tourney appearances, which I believe SDSU has 1 more of. UND leads the overall series by a fairly large amount, it was 20 as of a few years ago if memory serves. If SDSU were in the NCC for this coming year, they would be picked no higher then 3rd preseason with all of their loses (Moeller, Matt Jones) behind Makato and probably UND. On the women's side, despite SDSU's success the past 2 years, UND still has a decided advantage there. And aff claimed the wooden bleachers are gone at Frost, well, the entire upper level, which is over half the seats in the arena, are still high school style 1970's wood bleachers, which IMO makes the arena look so much worse then it could if it got updated to even 1980's standards in the upper level. The "great history" of SDSU basketball is quite overrated in my mind, because UND's is on the same level and, unlike SDSU fans, that isn't all the UND fans talk about. Then again, that really is all they have.

[star2city]

Are you serious, you don't think that SDSU has an advantage over you in basketball?

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Is it possible that Fullerton's mouth was slightly ajar last week when he toured the Ralph and Betty? Would he have the same response touring Frost? If UND men's basketball had a coach like, say, UNI's McDermott, who would have a better D-I program?

Also, maybe in Fullerton's mind there were thoughts like: "Wouldn't this be a great arena for the Big Sky conference tournament", or "Hey, the Big Sky could host first round and regional women's BB here". Or "The Big Sky could host volleyball regionals here". Not sure those thoughts would occur at other school venues.

[bisonguy]

Is it possible that Fullerton's mouth was slightly ajar last week when he toured the Ralph and Betty? Would he have the same response touring Frost? If UND men's basketball had a coach like, say, UNI's McDermott, who would have a better D-I program?

Also, maybe in Fullerton's mind there were thoughts like: "Wouldn't this be a great arena for the Big Sky conference tournament", or "Hey, the Big Sky could host first round and regional women's BB here". Or "The Big Sky could host volleyball regionals here". Not sure those thoughts would occur at other school venues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fullerton does not make the decision on who will be invited, should Big Sky expansion occur. UND's lack of commitment and "Johnny come lately" inquiry for admission (if the process is to that point), might be a stumbling block. Remember, the Big Sky was already burned once by a DII school that promised it was moving up after schedules were made for all sports. Once bitten, twice shy.....

[star2city]

One more point:

If the Big Sky goes to twelve schools, any western I-AA program left outside its umbrella will have major problems with scheduling. Since there are eight Big Sky programs, six Great West programs, maybe San Jose State, and maybe UND, two-four I-AA programs could be left out as independents. Schools like Cal Poly and Cal-Davis would almost be forced to join the Big Sky if they want to keep their football programs viable. If they don’t join, they’d only have each other and maybe Southern Utah to play. Of course there would be out-of-conference games with Big Sky teams, but these would almost exclusively be in September, leaving the bulk of the schedule to I-A teams, D-II teams, or cross-country trips with eastern I-AA teams. By going to 12, Fullerton may be attempting to force Cal Poly and Cal-Davis into the Big Sky, so that a Pacific division can be formed. This would keep Portland State, NAU, and Sac State placated, cut back on travel, make certain Dakota schools palatable, and give Montana schools renewed rivals. The Big Sky might then consider adding baseball/softball or swimming to its offerings and Cal Poly / Cal-Davis would have to seek affiliate membership for its other programs.

For UND, this might be the one and only opportunity this decade to move to Div I with a conference affiliation in hand. If later UND decided D-I is the way to proceed, there would not be a Great West I-AA option. It really seems the Big Sky is forcing everyone’s hands, so it gets the most desirable schools on its terms. For UND, the next two months may define its athletic future for the next 10-15 years.

[IowaBison]

[  Every school on the Big Sky's official expansion list needs major facility improvements.  But there is one exception (on the unofficial list):  UND.

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facility improvements?

you guys have an indoor track, must have put it up over the weekend

[IowaBison]

[IowaBison]

Is it possible that Fullerton's mouth was slightly ajar last week when he toured the Ralph and Betty?  Would he have the same response touring Frost?  If UND men's basketball had a coach like, say, UNI's McDermott, who would have a better D-I program?

Also, maybe in Fullerton's mind there were thoughts like:  "Wouldn't this be a great arena for the Big Sky conference tournament", or "Hey, the Big Sky could host first round and regional women's BB here".  Or "The Big Sky could host volleyball regionals here".  Not sure those thoughts would occur at other school venues. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i'm sure he was impressed, but i do wonder in the back of his head if he was wondering how a hockey school, with its benefits and obligations, would fit in the Big Sky

trust me, no Big Sky schools give a hoot about hockey as a sport

[IowaBison]

Schools like Cal Poly and Cal-Davis would almost be forced to join the Big Sky if they want to keep their football programs viable.

[UND92,96]

i'm sure he was impressed, but i do wonder in the back of his head if he was wondering how a hockey school, with its benefits and obligations, would fit in the Big Sky

trust me, no Big Sky schools give a hoot about hockey as a sport

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They don't need to care about the sport of hockey itself since obviously that is not and will never be a part of the Big Sky, but they do probably care about the facility (REA) that hockey shares with basketball at least on a part-time basis, the revenue stream that hockey produces that puts UND on pretty sound financial ground (ticket sales alone in the neighborhood of $2.5 million per year), and at least conceivably the national recognition UND has garnered due to its hockey success. One can argue exactly how much the second and third points would help UND, but they certainly won't hurt their cause.

[IowaBison]

i agree with your post, but there are costs that go along with your program as well,

[GCWaters]

  It really seems the Big Sky is forcing everyone

[The Sicatoka]

General observations:

- The Big Sky will do whatever it thinks it needs to do to protect .... itself. If that's forcing the hands of some schools, to ensure the BSC doesn't lose its autobids, that's what it'll do.

- I'm almost forced to agree with 'bisonfan1234' about the 15000 requirement. Every "hard and fast" NCAA rule has always later been "amended". Look at the past attendance rule for example. Plus, conferences like the MAC are going to have problems if "15k" is held to.

- Roger Thomas is already talking indoor training facility (see start of thread). I'm sure any school would much rather have the FB/BB/hockey facilities in order and then only have to worry about training space and indoor track. (PS - How hard would it be to put a modular 200m track into the Alerus for a meet? Better yet, would it fit into the Olympic Ice Arena at REA?)

- The BSC doesn't give a rip about hockey. However, hockey is revenue-positive for UND. Hockey at UND gave it a great BB facility along the way. The BSC, as every conference, does care about budgets and facilities.

Now a question:

If BSC football was 12 teams, split into two divisions like the SEC, would the BSC be able to play a "conference championship" game before the DI-AA playoffs (and sell it for some television dollars)? What are the rules on that?

[NDSU grad]

General observations:

- The Big Sky will do whatever it thinks it needs to do to protect .... itself. If that's forcing the hands of some schools, to ensure the BSC doesn't lose its autobids, that's what it'll do.

- I'm almost forced to agree with 'bisonfan1234' about the 15000 requirement. Every "hard and fast" NCAA rule has always later been "amended". Look at the past attendance rule for example. Plus, conferences like the MAC are going to have problems if "15k" is held to.

- Roger Thomas is already talking indoor training facility (see start of thread). I'm sure any school would much rather have the FB/BB/hockey facilities in order and then only have to worry about training space and indoor track. (PS - How hard would it be to put a modular 200m track into the Alerus for a meet? Better yet, would it fit into the Olympic Ice Arena at REA?)

- The BSC doesn't give a rip about hockey. However, hockey is revenue-positive for UND. Hockey at UND gave it a great BB facility along the way. The BSC, as every conference, does care about budgets and facilities.

Now a question:

If BSC football was 12 teams, split into two divisions like the SEC, would the BSC be able to play a "conference championship" game before the DI-AA playoffs (and sell it for some television dollars)? What are the rules on that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On your last point, I'm pretty sure the BSC could not play a championship game. Even if it would work logistically, there is really no point to it. The BSC would almost certainly have multiple bids to the playoffs, so nothing would be decided by having a championship game. And I highly doubt there would be a large revenue stream produced with a I-AA conference championship game. If played at a neutral site, it would probably garner enough revenue to offset travel expenses for the schools involved.

[DamStrait]

trust me, no Big Sky schools give a hoot about hockey as a sport

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neither does the Big Ten. Maybe 'SU should apply for membership there. Putz

[IowaBison]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neither does the Big Ten. Maybe 'SU should apply for membership there. Putz

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

your post makes no sense, if you had read the posts the logical parallel would be for UND to join the Big Ten

ie we've been writing about the Sioux, you know here on this "siouxsports" board, a few individuals pointed out that UNDs hockey program is valuable, i conceded that it is valuable as a program, but the fact that it's hockey doesn't help because the BSC as well as most conferences care little for the sport, so you bring up the Big Ten who also don't care for the sport at the conference level what does that have to do with the Bison?

[DamStrait]

I defy you to find where someone said that UND would be a good fit for the BSC because of hockey. I sure don't remember anyone making that statement. Some may have pointed out that hockey is very revenue positive, which would help the move to DI-AA, if and when that should come about. Some may have said because of the REA (for basketball), but that is not the same as saying hockey. Therefore YOUR statement that the BSC doesn't care about hockey was a gratuitous jab at a sport you happen not to care for, probably because it has proven to be such a successful program for UND. I attempted to show you the ridiculousness of your statement by pointing out that the Big Ten doesn't care about hockey either (despite having 5 conference members with DI hockey programs, with 20 national titles between them), and suggested that since NDSU (a school without hockey) is looking for conference membership, maybe they should look at the Big Ten. Inferring of course that since NDSU is looking at the BSC, which according your singularly brilliant insight does not care about hockey, they should seek to join other conferences that care nothing about hockey as well, such as the Big Ten. I know it doesn't make sense. Neither does your jab at our hockey program. THAT IS THE POINT! Of course it loses something, EVERYTHING in fact, when I have to explain it to you.

[IowaBison]

1. calm down

2. read my old posts

i never implied a jab at your hockey program

[DamStrait]

1. Think before you post.

2. Apology accepted.

[Bisonfan1234]

-Bottom line on UND hockey and the BSC: it won't hinder UND from joining. The BSC knows that hockey is just an independent, extra revenue stream. It's nothing that could hurt the BSC in any way and only makes UND have extra room in the budget for improvements to sports like football, bball, and track.

- The SWAC conference, which is in I-AA and has some very good football programs plays a conference championship game and yet, does not have teams in the play off. I wish I fully understood why that is.

However, according to the rule posted about it, it seems that it's completely permissible assuming every school agrees to it.

Would they? Here is a free lesson in the way that commissioners think: conference championship game = more $$$$$$. I believe they'd do it in a heartbeat.

- Count Cal Poly, Cal Davis, and Sac State out of the Big Sky. Both Cal Poly and Davis have the Big West for every sport other than football, including baseball and softball which is big time in California. Sac State has 3 options as far as I'm concerned: 1) Drop football and join the Big West, 2)join the Big West and join up with Poly and Davis in whatever they're doing for football (probably independent, remember that the southland conference which will only have 7 football members next season is in the west region and will need games in much the same way that NDSU has scheduled 2 teams from there), or 3) Try and get into the WAC. I foresee them choosing 1 or maybe 2 depending on football support and money. So many other CSU schools have dropped football that it would be easy to do so and join them in the Big West.

- UND needs no facility improvements? You need an indoor track for one. For two, your football stadium, which is the main sport of the BSC, only seats 10000. You need an upgrade there.

I have said that the 15000 requirement won't be enforced. Let me refine that statement. It won't be enforced for schools that are already DIA. For any teams or conferences trying to come up to DIA it will be enforced.

With that in mind, I think the BSC may try and make a run at DIA with most of its members already having stadiums of 15000 or more. The only one who isn't is Idaho State @ 12000 and supposedly un-upgradeable. They might be in a tough spot.

[IowaBison]

Here's the big question

How much does Hockey Net in a Year?

How much does/will Women's Hockey Cost?

How much fundraising will UND have to do/if any in order to meet DI Title 9 requirements?

I'd be happy to hear wild guesses.

Also, there are a few websites that have dollar figures, but everyone seems to do their accounting a little differently.

[DamStrait]

your football stadium, which is the main sport of the BSC, only seats 10000. You need an upgrade there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alerus Description Including Capacity (from right here on li'l ol' SiouxSports.com)

Not bad - only 35% off.

[Bisonfan1234]

Still short of 15000.

[nodakvindy]

Here's the big question

How much does Hockey Net in a Year?

How much does/will Women's Hockey Cost?

How much fundraising will UND have to do/if any in order to meet DI Title 9 requirements?

I'd be happy to hear wild guesses.

Also, there are a few websites that have dollar figures, but everyone seems to do their accounting a little differently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think, with some successful seasons, the women's hockey program has the potential to join women's hoop as revenue positive, or at least self supporting. There is also the potential to produce Olympians, which can have a large benefit in terms of promotion. That's why I think you will continue to see a more international flavor on UND's swim teams.

Men's hockey is an abso-freaking-lute cash cow, helping build the Betty and supporting the entire athletic program. No reason to believe that won't continue, and once the U gets control of the Ralph the real money can start to pour in.

On the other side of the coin, NDSU added 18.5 scholarships for football this year, where did the money go on the women's side. I've heard nothing about adding a women's sport, which they almost certainly must do. UND is ahead of the game there having already added women's hockey and with it eventually 18 schollies. That's 2/3 of the offset for moving to DI-AA football.

Another important consideration is that UND is hosting the crown jewel of DII sports this year, the Elite Eight. I think UND is just waiting until that is over to announce their move. They don't want to distract from that event or diminish the impressive accomplishments UND has achieved in DII. There isn't the need to constantly bad mouth DII like NDSU and SDSU have done.

[Bisonfan1234]

If you have the exact sports that the BSC mandates, you're T9 complient.

Any extra sports you have must cancel each other out on the men's and women's side.

IE if you also have baseball, you have to have softball, hockey and hockey, swimming and swimming, etc.