Big Sky Expansion Already Decided

[NDSU grad]

92, 96, I definitely think NDSU needs a new facility, no argument there. Sicatoka, you've finally figured out; geopgraphy as it relates to cost and travel time. I think you'll find costs and travel time would not be much different for the four schools involved. Especially since only the SU's offer a travel partner package.

[star2city]

Holy s&!t.  Starcity, I can't believe your still defending this rumor.  I checked on this site tonight expecting to read something from you saying that you were wrong but..... (Insert bull$%!# here), but instead your still coming up with these crazy conspiracy stories based on absolutely nothing but what will fit in with the story. 

aff:

I’m not only defending this rumor, I’ll go one step further: Denver may be looking at the Big Sky, but the Big Sky is begging Denver to come in. BTW, your intro comments were great, as well others mocking my posts on Bisonville. It’s like hitting the Daily Double.

Let me further explain:

The Big Sky’s existence is approaching a tenuous condition as an auto-bid conference, because the WAC has such instability. As long as the WAC is unstable, the Big Sky Presidents should be concerned. In the nine-team WAC, La Tech is no longer a fit (and remains desperate for a Conf USA bid), San Jose St. might drop football (faculty voted to drop it), Hawaii, Fresno St., Boise St., and Nevada have actively sought invites to the MWC, and Hawaii actually might be better off financially if it went indy in football and joined the Big West (which is a power in the other sports that matter on the Islands: volleyball and baseball). The only “contented” WAC schools are the Sunbelt refugees, Idaho, New Mexico State, and Utah State.

So how does this affect the Big Sky? First, the Sky’s hope to get any or all of the former Sunbelt schools was shattered (except one holdout - Denver). Second, if the WAC loses more members, it has only one place to turn for more football members: Big Sky. Montana was reportedly already been approached (their accounting scandal this year has made their finances too tenuous for any upgrade now), Sac State and Portland State both believe their programs are more viable at a I-A level than at I-AA and would have definite interest, and Northern Arizona is also reportedly interested. So if the Big Sky lost two teams, it would lose its autobid, unless it already has added another full Div I member. But if it added any full D-I member (basketball or football), it would then have to lose three members. This spring, as long as the WAC is unstable, the Big Sky’s only real choices are (a) add Denver (with UNC as a convenient longer-term sidekick), or (b) add Southern Utah. Choice (a) is preferable to choice (b).

To illustrate, if NDSU and SDSU combo are added for the 2006 season, and Sac State and Portland State later decide to join the WAC for 2007, the Big Sky loses its autobid. Not only that, but since they wouldn’t be in an auto-bid conference, NDSU and SDSU would now have to wait thirteen years to count as a full Div I member, not five years. The Big Sky would be forced get an existing DI teams to join in, and then hope everyone stays together for a few more years, in order to get back its autobid.

The Big Sky also faces the difficulty that there are so few expansion options near or within its region beyond 2008. Face it: SDSU politically needs to show its legislature and Board of Regents that some conference is interested in it, now, as a conference member. The Big Sky is more than happy to oblige, as it might truly need more Div I members in 2008 and beyond. The whole media display about expansion (highly unusual for a conference to publicly air its expansion intentions) is all about helping Miller, Oien, Taylor, & Chapman maintain a charade that the Big Sky’s interest is on the up-and-up. There is an interest, but only for 2008 and beyond.

[star2city]

Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't even see what your point is about this. Probably something about denver, but I don't see it. Maybe I'm just tired, but you should just spell this out.

If UNC had been granted acceptance into the Big Sky, any Altitude/UNC contract would have needed a sign off by the Big Sky also, since the Big Sky / Altitude already had a deal. This would have taken time. By Altitude announcing the contract on the 9th, it shows UNC anticipated a reasonable chance that it could have been accepted on August 9th. UNC also knew that its chances of acceptance were out of its control, and were wholy dependent on Denver accepting a Big Sky bid.

I already know that you hate this scenario though, because it screws any chances of UND making a move up in the next decade, if the conference stays stable.  It at least takes away UND's only real chance of a traveling partner for the conference.

Div I conferences don't like two teams in the same media market, so a UND and NDSU combo would not have excited the beancounters. With Grand Forks lacking any westbound flights to Denver or Salt Lake, the chances of UND hooking up with a western based conference would be remote anyway.

[bisonguy]

Div I conferences don't like two teams in the same media market, so a UND and NDSU combo would not have excited the beancounters. With Grand Forks lacking any westbound flights to Denver or Salt Lake, the chances of UND hooking up with a western based conference would be remote anyway.

Kinda like UNC and Denver?

[SiouxMeNow]

wow - All these bison guys around? I feel DIRTY....like i need to shower (f* u for the shower jokes to come! *F) What are people like you doing on a lowly DII (in this forum) board??? Thought you were too good for that!!!

[doclenz]

The travel partner thing is interesting fodder. Having NDSU and SDSU as travel partners could be cost prohibitive. You have to get your team from town to town. So if your in Fargo on a night and going to Brookings how are you going to get there? Rent a bus? Then drive from Brookings back to Fargo or to Sioux Falls to fly to Minneaplis or Denver and then home? Or fly from Fargo to Minneapolis to Sioux Falls and then rent a bus? Also the assumption that they are both applying and they would take them both or neither is interesting. It's possible that the Big Sky if they were to add two teams would take, say UNC and NDSU. Something to ponder.

[NDSU grad]

Let's say Montana is playing the SU's. They fly to Fargo, play a game, and stay overnight. The next day they bus to Brookings (I don't think the Big Sky plays games on consecutive days so they might have to stay in Brookings), and the day after they play SDSU. Bus to Sioux Falls and fly home.

Now let's say they're playing Northern Arizona/Weber St. Fly to Phoenix, bus to Flagstaff, play a game, probably stay overnight in Flagstaff. The next day they fly to Salt Lake City (pretty far to drive), bus to Ogden, stay overnight. The next day they play, bus back to Salt Lake City and fly home.

So really, a trip out "east" is in the long run probably easier (certainly not more difficult) than some of the current trips they already make. Also, traditionally NDSU (and probably most of the NCC schools) have had greater attendance figures for conference games than non-conference games. The same may be true of the Big Sky. It's just another thing to consider. The main point I'm trying to get across is there's alot more involved than just miles, and I'm sure these points are what our AD will stress when talking to Big Sky officials.

[UND Fan]

Yes, the Big Sky plays the majority of their conference games on Thursday and Saturday - allowing plenty of time to travel on Fridays.

Interestingly, the ladies play on Tuesday and Thursday. Lots of missed class time!

[aff]

The Big Sky also faces the difficulty that there are so few expansion options near or within its region beyond 2008. Face it: SDSU politically needs to show its legislature and Board of Regents that some conference is interested in it, now, as a conference member. The Big Sky is more than happy to oblige, as it might truly need more Div I members in 2008 and beyond. The whole media display about expansion (highly unusual for a conference to publicly air its expansion intentions) is all about helping Miller, Oien, Taylor, & Chapman maintain a charade that the Big Sky

[aff]

To illustrate, if NDSU and SDSU combo are added for the 2006 season, and Sac State and Portland State later decide to join the WAC for 2007, the Big Sky loses its autobid. Not only that, but since they wouldn

[star2city]

Sooo... you're saying that all of the big sky presidents got together to put together a false hope of invitation to SDSU in hopes of helping it politically in SD?

[star2city]

There's no way in hell that Sac and Portland will be in the WAC by 2007.  Earliest would be 2008.  Unless they announce tomorrow they don't even have a chance, and even if they did, they wouldn't screw the rest of the sky out of their autobid if all they had to do was wait an extra year to leave, so that everybody was happy.  You also haven't shown me why the WAC would be so excited to add Sac and Portland's fb programs to theirs. 

Get real. Nobody believed Florida Atlantic and Florida International would be I-A football in 2005 either, and those two schools have had much less transition time. The last thing a school leaving a conference worries about is if the conference remaining still has an auto-bid (and actually they would prefer the auto-bid be destroyed, as any NCAA March Madness credits would go to the schools that earned them, not to the conference left behind). Last year proved that there is no loyalty to any conferences or former conference schools, but only to money and prestige (ask Donna Shalala/Miami about loyalty). The WAC wouldn’t be excited about any of the Big Sky schools: they held their nose taking Idaho (much as I hate saying that). But if the WAC needs two new schools for its own IA survival, it would show no mercy to the Big Sky. Sac St., Portland St, NAU, and Montana would all be begging and pleading to “take me, take me”, as the schools not chosen would be left on a sinking and burning ship, otherwise known as the Big Sky. Sac St and Portland State both intended the Big Sky to be a wayside stop on their way to I-A (it hasn’t exactly worked to their plan). Montana, which was in the precursor of the PAC-10, has more rivalry history with Idaho (and even Washington State) than it has with Montana State. When Montana gets it finances in order (it already has stadium plans for 30,000), it can kiss the Big Sky gone first opportunity it gets. The Montana President, by telling the press that the WAC had approached them and by not denying a future interest, has officially warned his conference mates of what could happen.

I highly doubt that the BSC is going to put a timeline on one of their "charades", or a have a presidental meeting to orchestrate it. Why wouldn't they just leak info to the media. This process is for real.

The process may look real, but the results are already known: Denver (1st choice if it agrees), and SUU (backup choice if Denver does not opt in). Name one other conference that has required a “letter of interest”? The answer is none. That practically proves this whole publicity on expansion is a sham. The process only becomes truly real if the threat of more conference shifts or schools dropping football in the WAC is eliminated. In other words: slim and none

If they want denver so bad, why would they put the pressure on them to apply. It sounds like they would be screwing themselves to me.

They’re not putting pressure on them to apply, but bending over backwards and obliging Denver’s request for more time, and trying to avoid adding SUU. Fullerton and the Big Sky have admitted lusting after every western IA team that moved to the WAC, and now the WAC has admitted potential interest in Denver. If the WAC has potential interest in a school, you can be assured that the Big Sky is lusting after it, for its own survival.

[WYOBISONMAN]

It is always interesting to check this thread out every couple days to see what kind of fiction star2city has been writing.....

[doclenz]

Looks to me like aff is Jackmd from the diaa. His posts smell a little like a barn.

[jimdahl]

So, a new sports network based in Colorado, that only has been signing up Colorado-based sports teams (including deals with Division II Metropolitan State basketball and the RMAC), also signs a deal with the Big Sky Conference, that has no Colorado exposure?  Behind the scenes, the University of Denver has known to have been working on television deals to get into a new conference and out of the SunBelt.  Putting two and two together, it is rather apparent that Denver and UNC are going to be added to the Big Sky.  The Big Sky last had a non-football playing team with Gonzaga, and will allow it again because of the publicity and money Denver will bring.  Fullerton has not mentioned Denver as a candidate because it is poor etiquette among conference commissioners to mention a school belonging to another conference as an expansion candidate.  The whole expansion discussion by the Big Sky is August is likely a farce, as the real decision was made on June 3rd when the Big Sky signed the agreement with Altitude Sports.

So what does this do for NDSU/SDSU?  Screws them big time.  Not only will the Big Sky not be inviting them, but the Great West Conference will lose a founding member, UNC, and be down to five.  The Great West will not be an auto bid conference unless Sac State leaves the Big Sky and joins the Big West/Great West.

The nice thing about these message boards is that everyone's predictions are immutably on record when the results come in; derision of his prediction aside, looks like star2city wins this one bigtime. No Denver, but definitely thinking along the right lines:

Big Sky to consider Northern Colorado

[star2city]

Thanks, Jim, for remembering this thread. In the last month or so, I actually thought there might have been a possibility that the Big Sky would have expanded to the Dakotas, but only if Cal Poly and UCDavis would have joined and then if the Big Sky split into two divisions. (I guess there is a danger in listening to the hype from the Fargo media.) Since the BSC couldn't entice the Calif schools, the Sky's original plan of adding school(s) in the Denver metro won out. Denver U is still out there waiting/ hoping for a WAC bid and I still believe the BSC wants them. Although I am sure this will still be ridiculed, the Altitude/UNC & Altitude/Big Sky deals were strong hints at what was transpiring behind the scenes.

For bison (and Sioux) fans, I do think there will be another Big Sky expansion in two years or so. The WAC is still too unstable (San Jose St, La Tech, the maybe Mountain West poaching Boise or Fresno) for the Big Sky to rest comfortably. If only one of these three schools to leave the Big Sky for the Big West/Great West or WAC: Sac St, Portland State, or UNA, there will be votes to add two dakota schools. If Montana were to leave for the WAC, SUU would probably finally get in. I also think SDSU will have some serious flirtations with the Mid-Con in the next 18 months or so. If Montana is still in the BSC in two years and the BSC expands, NDSU/UND would be the odds-on favorites. The next expansion round may be what Kupchella/Harmeson/Thomas are positioning UND for.

Just some review info. Call me a fool, again, but a UNC/Denver deal was supposed to happen last summer, but the WAC Commissioner spoiled it by propositioning Denver U publicly. The BSC Presidents responded with a general call for interest, but they always hoped they could respond with their Plan A. Today's announcement just turned out to be Plan A-.

Last week’s comment to the media by the WAC Commissioner, Karl Benson, on the possibility of going to a 10/9 arrangement and more specifically, naming Denver as a school he has talked with, seemed timed perfectly to cause a disruption.  My point is this:  by publicly revealing that Denver was talking with the WAC, Benson immediately and maybe purposely raised eyebrows among Big Sky presidents, privately causing them to question Denver’s potential commitment to the Big Sky.  The letter of intent would force Denver’s hand.  If Benson really was serious about adding Denver, and Denver really had an imminent deal with the Big Sky, Benson’s calculated statements bought the WAC time. 

Secondly, it was really rather curious (IMO anyway), that on the same day that Northern Colorado did not receive immediate acceptance into the Big Sky, the Altitude network immediately thereafter announces a deal with UNC.  Circumstantial?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Smoggy]

That Altitude sports channel seems a little different. I don't think I have it all the time on DirecTV, but every once in a while I get some minor league hockey. That normally comes out of Utah. I'm guessing it's due to the NHL lockout.

[RD17]

*Note to self*

Pay very close attention to what star2city has to say when it comes to the business side of college athletics.

[star2city]

Just some review info.    Call me a fool, again, but a UNC/Denver deal was supposed to happen last summer, but the WAC Commissioner spoiled it by propositioning Denver U publicly.  The BSC Presidents responded with a general call for interest, but they always hoped they could respond with their Plan A.  Today's announcement just turned out to be Plan A-.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is probably in poor taste to restart this thread, but the Denver Post came out with some info this week that seem to fully vindicate the whole premise of this thread: Denver/UNC to the Big Sky.

Pioneers' search for new conference stays on hold

Here's a quote from Doug Fullerton:

Big Sky commissioner Doug Fullerton said he considered DU as a prospective new member, but the Pioneers pulled out of the discussions. "They didn't want to carry forward," he said.

Denver's five-year commitment to the Sunbelt is up, so they have been recently looking elsewhere, including the Big Sky (again):

Commissioners from the Western Athletic Conference, West Coast Conference and Big Sky Conference confirmed they have spoken with DU chancellor Dan Ritchie in recent weeks about the Pioneers' desire to part ways with the far-flung Sun Belt Conference after five years.

So the Big Sky still apparently has interest, and the WAC's interest seems to have waned based on its commisioner's comments. Any question if the BSC team that will be touring UNC will make a stop at the Denver campus too, just in case? The BSC's Plan A, Denver/UNC, still has a reasonable chance of happening, in my view.

If this isn't bad enough for the SU's, this is probably worse:

The Illinois-based MCC has nine basketball programs, but commissioner Ron Bertovich said he's not looking to expand to 10 anytime soon.

[The Sicatoka]

With Northern Colorado getting an official look, those magic words really work for DU:

Geography.

Media market.