Two Tier System for ND Hockey

[Frozen4sioux]

3 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

Does it happen?  Yes, every year.  It was just a bad example, Edina's team this year is full of Edina kids....except the goalie.  Edina actually fills Benilde, Blake, St. Thomas (to some extent), St Louis park, Breck, etc. 

Also, Edina does not have open enrollment.  It's why the houses cost so dang much.

This is all accurate. 

[Yote 53]

3 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

I know....and I'm seeing it in my home state as well.

Confused because your location says Twin Cities.  You must be referencing players leaving HS early for Juniors, or a program like Gentry.  

3 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

GFC playing Warroad, Roseau, TRF isn't more of a draw than playing Grafton, DL, WF, WFS or FN a second time????? Exactly, they never play Moorhead, because everyone is tied up with 2 league games instead of one. If they got rid of one (following me here?) then they would have open slots to schedule teams like Moorhead. What's so wrong with Davies, RR or GFC playing Moorhead? 

No idea what any of their names are. How about you tell me since you're from there? Is it not true that Edina has open enrollment and several of their players every single season did not even grow up there? You chasing me about names on that team is missing the point of my comment. I used them as an arbitrary example of what happens in MNHS hockey. Good players from poor teams transfer to private schools and schools (like Edina) to play. MNHS hockey overall competition gets pretty lopsided because of this. Edina is the most talked about because they seem to be one of the main in-fluent teams of top talent transfers. 

Players don't normally transfer into Edina to play, those teams are homegrown (except for their goalie this year who played for Nashville Jr Preds U15 AAA team, no idea how he got to Edina).  Edina is a youth program that not only produces players for Edina's HS roster but also schools like Benilde St. Margaret's and other private school programs.

What is Moorhead's perspective on scheduling ND schools?  If the openings where there would they do it?  Or would it effect their SOS playing out of state teams (would the state of MN "Count" the games)?  Scheduling is a two way street.

ETA:  See somebody beat me to the Edina comment.  That youth program provides players for a lot of schools.

[OgieOgilthorpe]

4 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Absolutely do NOT need to have Jr gold join right away. BUT 1000% Watford Crosby Langdon do exactly that. 

 

10 teams to start. Perfect. These all travel all over right now anyway, the travel argument is a nonstarter. 

Williston

Dickinson

Hazen Beulah 

Mandan

 

Jamestown -VC

May-Port

Bottineau

GFPR or Devils Lake. ( This would be the only schools that would be even a little irked, solved when a Langdon comes in)

And for gods sake NO, these kids do not enjoy getting the piss knocked out of them all year, it does not have to be "the way it is.".... thats foolish.

 

This is becoming a joke.

Travel is absolutely 100% an argument. This would increase the travel for all of these teams substantially. So on top of being kicked down to a lower class to kill their program, now they also have to travel 2x as much? It's not going to happen. The only teams that are going to be okay with this are the teams who are obviously hanging on by a thread and need something to save their program. HB, Bott, and Mayville. And the only way to create a class for them to play in is to have some or all of the JR GOLD teams join. Which they won't because their schools will most likely not sponsor a new expensive sport. WC may be the only possibility. 

Also, GFPR who has more state championships than all of the other schools and towns  in the entire state COMBINED excluding Grand Forks, is going to be kicked down to a lower class? Good luck with that one haha! DL and Grafton have competed at a higher level in the east than FN, FSS, WF, and WFS in the last 10-12 years, so why kick them down a class? Enrollment? Dumb

 

[yzerman19]

On 3/13/2019 at 7:40 AM, Frozen4sioux said:

i see zero chance of minny letting them in... now ... established under a "private scool" in esst grand??

there ya go

A private, hockey focused school on the Eastside would devastate North Dakota hockey...imagine if it signed up for AA??

 

[Frozen4sioux]

Whatever we all feel, it is well beyond time for the vested parties to conveen in VC and at least have the duscussion.

HS coaches, ADs, Superintendents as well as the youth club representatives, USA hockey reps...

All meeting with the silver haired unichs that envision themselves as the keeper of youth sports law.

 

IF you think the current system is sustainable,  that is a fool's road that leads to nowhere, or just are so blatently ignorant that there is no hope.

This stinks of the moronic attitude of wanting your kid to given a spot on a higher team, just for the social status a parent can claim. 

 

Either way your, our I should say our opinions matter not. Everything is in the "capable"

(hahahhahahahahha) 

hands of the VC kabal.

[Walsh Hall]

13 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Whatever we all feel, it is well beyond time for the vested parties to conveen in VC and at least have the duscussion.

HS coaches, ADs, Superintendents as well as the youth club representatives, USA hockey reps...

All meeting with the silver haired unichs that envision themselves as the keeper of youth sports law.

 

IF you think the current system is sustainable,  that is a fool's road that leads to nowhere, or just are so blatently ignorant that there is no hope.

This stinks of the moronic attitude of wanting your kid to given a spot on a higher team, just for the social status a parent can claim. 

 

Either way your, our I should say our opinions matter not. Everything is in the "capable" ( hahahhahahahahha)  hands of the VC kabal.

What is the specific problem that needs fixing?  The youth numbers in the West are up as far as number of pee wee and bantam teams.  If the problem is development on the top end, the solution is different than it there is declining participation on the bottom end.

West Youth Teams (excluding Bismarck)

2013 - Pee Wee - 14, Bantam 14

2018  - Pee Wee 22, Bantam 17

[OgieOgilthorpe]

30 minutes ago, Walsh Hall said:

What is the specific problem that needs fixing?  The youth numbers in the West are up as far as number of pee wee and bantam teams.  If the problem is development on the top end, the solution is different than it there is declining participation on the bottom end.

West Youth Teams (excluding Bismarck)

2013 - Pee Wee - 14, Bantam 14

2018  - Pee Wee 22, Bantam 17

None of them can come up with an actual problem...they just see the MN tournament on TV every March and get riled up about it for a few weeks on how we should copy it. They forget to take into consideration that MNHS hockey has hundreds of teams, and other ND sports have hundreds of teams to create two classes.

There is a nasty spread in talent levels in every sport in every state and in every class, but when there are only 19 teams and 1 of them happens to be one of the top in the nation, it looks bad because it can't hide away behind tons of other teams. Splitting things up won't change any of that, and would only hurt more of the programs in my opinion. 

For as small of a population that ND has, and for how spread out a lot of the cities are, ND has it pretty dang good. High competition, good spread of competition and high % production of post-HS hockey players. ONE screwed up school system loop-hole in the biggest hockey town in the nation is the only problem I see. Grand Forks needs to balance things out by making a boundary. Whether people will admit it or not, the boundary should have hockey in mind, because realistically that's all anyone cares about there anyway. 

[scpa0305]

41 minutes ago, Yote 53 said:

Confused because your location says Twin Cities.  You must be referencing players leaving HS early for Juniors, or a program like Gentry.  

Players don't normally transfer into Edina to play, those teams are homegrown (except for their goalie this year who played for Nashville Jr Preds U15 AAA team, no idea how he got to Edina).  Edina is a youth program that not only produces players for Edina's HS roster but also schools like Benilde St. Margaret's and other private school programs.

What is Moorhead's perspective on scheduling ND schools?  If the openings where there would they do it?  Or would it effect their SOS playing out of state teams (would the state of MN "Count" the games)?  Scheduling is a two way street.

ETA:  See somebody beat me to the Edina comment.  That youth program provides players for a lot of schools.

I'm from ND....live in MN

[Yote 53]

5 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

I'm from ND....live in MN

Ahh, gotcha.  

[OgieOgilthorpe]

I still think the winner of this conversation was the comment by Frozen4sioux of throwing GraftonPR and DL down to a lower class with HB, Crosby and Watford. And to top it off, saying those two being irked about being put down to the lower class would go away once they heard mighty Langdon joined the class! LOLZ

Grafton and DL's JV teams would win that state championship every single year and blow everyone else out of the water. All their varsity players would move to Grand Forks. DL and GPR play a lot of those small town teams in youth hockey and it gets ugly even though it's usually the B teams playing for DL and GPR. They don't belong in the same league. 

GPR has more state titles than FN, FS, Shanley, WF, WFS, FD, Jamestown, BHS, Century, Minot, Williston, Dickinson, Mandan, C.O.M.B.I.N.E.D....but sure they'll agree to play with Bott, HB, Crosby, Langdon, Mayville, Richland county, and DL instead. 

 

[UND92,96]

32 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

For as small of a population that ND has, and for how spread out a lot of the cities are, ND has it pretty dang good. High competition, good spread of competition and high % production of post-HS hockey players. ONE screwed up school system loop-hole in the biggest hockey town in the nation is the only problem I see. Grand Forks needs to balance things out by making a boundary. Whether people will admit it or not, the boundary should have hockey in mind, because realistically that's all anyone cares about there anyway. 

A boundary which equalizes things for hockey would actually serve to equalize things for all other sports. As I've mentioned before, as long as South and the southerly portion of Schroeder middle schools are entirely in the RR district, RR has a massive advantage athletically in everything other than hockey, which is obviously a unique situation right now. Put Schroeder entirely in the Central district, and have Valley Middle School be the one where there's a split, and everything becomes evened out. Maybe now that RR is the one at a disadvantage for hockey it makes it somewhat less controversial to force a change, since both schools would potentially be benefitted in some way?

[scpa0305]

59 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

None of them can come up with an actual problem...they just see the MN tournament on TV every March and get riled up about it for a few weeks on how we should copy it. They forget to take into consideration that MNHS hockey has hundreds of teams, and other ND sports have hundreds of teams to create two classes.

There is a nasty spread in talent levels in every sport in every state and in every class, but when there are only 19 teams and 1 of them happens to be one of the top in the nation, it looks bad because it can't hide away behind tons of other teams. Splitting things up won't change any of that, and would only hurt more of the programs in my opinion. 

For as small of a population that ND has, and for how spread out a lot of the cities are, ND has it pretty dang good. High competition, good spread of competition and high % production of post-HS hockey players. ONE screwed up school system loop-hole in the biggest hockey town in the nation is the only problem I see. Grand Forks needs to balance things out by making a boundary. Whether people will admit it or not, the boundary should have hockey in mind, because realistically that's all anyone cares about there anyway. 

Which is exactly why I think GF/Fargo has to create some sort of Tier 1 option.  You create more high schools or teams to balance things out because other, smaller, towns, obviously can't compete.  All this does is water down the overall league and make things more fair to the smaller teams; it creates parity.  Which is great for the smaller towns (and definitely should happen) however what about the high end kids?  They are now playing in a worse, less competitive league (which could not complete against better MN communities).

Yes, I think parity should be the focus for ND high school hockey, however there has to be some other local options for the higher end kids as well.  Which includes better coaching (i.e. Grant P.).

[OgieOgilthorpe]

50 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

Which is exactly why I think GF/Fargo has to create some sort of Tier 1 option.  You create more high schools or teams to balance things out because other, smaller, towns, obviously can't compete.  All this does is water down the overall league and make things more fair to the smaller teams; it creates parity.  Which is great for the smaller towns (and definitely should happen) however what about the high end kids?  They are now playing in a worse, less competitive league (which could not complete against better MN communities).

Yes, I think parity should be the focus for ND high school hockey, however there has to be some other local options for the higher end kids as well.  Which includes better coaching (i.e. Grant P.).

I meant RR and GFC being more balanced instead of having 1 all-star team. I don't think adding another team or skimming off the top talent to play midgets is a good idea at all. I think once the GF teams get balanced, then 4-5 other teams will be in the mix every year instead of it just being one all-star GF team then everyone else 2 steps behind. There will always be a few kids here and there that'll leave early for no-brainer opportunities but I see no reason for a lot of these Grand Forks and Fargo kids to leave to join some Tier 1 team. They have plenty of competition in ND once the GF schools get balanced out, and creating a Tier 1 team would most likely overcompensate. 

[Frozen4sioux]

GF balancing teams is a good solution to AA parity, without it its still a contest for 2nd 9 out of 10 years. 

GFYH needs to lead that culture change at the youth levels. i.e. balance equal teams In the A and B bands throughout.

Maybe a A class allows for equitable establishment of the new Legacy and WF teams when they inevitably come online. Who knows...

What happened in GFPR in the last 5-8 years has a lot more bearing on the near future than the ancient history you referenced, sorry thats the facts.

Grafton as a whole has been a yo yo of class movement in sports throughout the past 20 -25  years. Might have a bit of experience with this one. Maybe they'll have to prove  they can restablish and maintain a cohesive youth program and then compete with the AA.

 Heck, allow the top A team each year to play up, hell maybe a relegation series, gives an interest to those team at the bottom of AA. Who knows....make it interesting. Its simply not now for most programs.

Or just plan to play for no purpose or goal, that'll keep kids interested.

Why is having differentiated classes of for youth, AA, A, B1, B  different tourney brackets, but then suddenly stupid in HS?? Different talent levels, different competition bands.

Anything, ideas, discussion, solutions  > foolish stagnant moronic ignorance toward the issues.

Issues, BTW, outlined at length and highly publisized on radio and social media the past month.

Not sure you can see that through the incredibly small tunnel vision.

[OgieOgilthorpe]

52 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

GF balancing teams is a good solution to AA parity, without it its still a contest for 2nd 9 out of 10 years. 

GFYH needs to lead that culture change at the youth levels. i.e. balance equal teams In the A and B bands throughout.

Maybe a A class allows for equitable establishment of the new Legacy and WF teams when they inevitably come online. Who knows...

What happened in GFPR in the last 5-8 years has a lot more bearing on the near future than the ancient history you referenced, sorry thats the facts.

Grafton as a whole has been a yo yo of class movement in sports throughout the past 20 -25  years. Might have a bit of experience with this one. Maybe they'll have to prove  they can restablish and maintain a cohesive youth program and then compete with the AA.

 Heck, allow the top A team each year to play up, hell maybe a relegation series, gives an interest to those team at the bottom of AA. Who knows....make it interesting. Its simply not now for most programs.

Or just plan to play for no purpose or goal, that'll keep kids interested.

Why is having differentiated classes of for youth, AA, A, B1, B  different tourney brackets, but then suddenly stupid in HS?? Different talent levels, different competition bands.

Anything, ideas, discussion, solutions  > foolish stagnant moronic ignorance toward the issues.

Issues, BTW, outlined at length and highly publisized on radio and social media the past month.

Not sure you can see that through the incredibly small tunnel vision.

In the last "5-8 seasons" that you mention, GPR has been in the state title game 3 times. Since 2000 they have won the championship 2 times and have been in the championship game a total of 6 times. That's an average of making the state championship game once every 3 years. Those seem like pretty solid facts to me...and not exactly ancient! In the past five years GPR saw some issues of Park River leaving the co-op which caused noticeable problems for the program, but the co-op has now been reestablished so I expect them to continue their strong showings. On top of that, they play in the East, so their "struggles" of finishing 6th and 7th would surely place them in the top 4 of the West Region. 

Do I really have to explain all of this? Towns or programs having A teams and B teams is identical to high school programs having Varsity teams and JV teams so you're not really making much of a point there. There aren't A1 and A2 or B1 and B2 leagues or classes. There are just A2 and B2 tournaments at the end of the season which only exist as an overflow for teams who didn't make the A1 and B1 tournaments so they can play for some sort of championship. In high school, instead of playing for A2 or B2 tournaments, the teams just get sent home. So, overall the only differences I know of in ND youth hockey is the conference alignments, which are North and South vs  East and West like High School. The three AA Bantam teams are the only high competition band in all of ND youth hockey. So no, ND youth hockey doesn't have different class levels, just different labels for the same set up. It's all the same

I don't have tunnel vision, I've just been around all levels of hockey long enough to thoroughly understand how everything works and realize that the one and only way it could work is never ever going to fly, so it'll never happen anyway.

If I could have my wish fulfilled, I would have ALL the JR GOLD teams flip to HS sponsored teams and have them be in class 1A. At that point you could add HB, Bott, and Mayville to join them because I'm assuming they would happily join. Then everyone else would be 2A with fewer conference games to open up more MN and even Manitoba games. I just don't see anything else working and even this plan that could probably work, will never happen because schools like Crosby, Langdon, Sidney and Richland county will never sponsor such an expensive sport. And changing existing varsity teams to a lower class will be fought to the death by those towns and schools because it would be program suicide. 

 

[Walsh Hall]

For clarification, for ND Bantams there is AA (3) teams, A(11), B1 (12) and B (19).  I agree that AA is the only high competition band, with A being solid, but not nearly as many out-of-state games.  GF dominates both AA and A at probably a higher level than HS.

[OgieOgilthorpe]

3 minutes ago, Walsh Hall said:

For clarification, for ND Bantams there is AA (3) teams, A(11), B1 (12) and B (19).  I agree that AA is the only high competition band, with A being solid, but not nearly as many out-of-state games.  GF dominates both AA and A at probably a higher level than HS.

So with the higher numbers of players at that age, they're essentially able to have a JV team (B1) and a C squad (B). 

[scpa0305]

2 hours ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

I meant RR and GFC being more balanced instead of having 1 all-star team. I don't think adding another team or skimming off the top talent to play midgets is a good idea at all. I think once the GF teams get balanced, then 4-5 other teams will be in the mix every year instead of it just being one all-star GF team then everyone else 2 steps behind. There will always be a few kids here and there that'll leave early for no-brainer opportunities but I see no reason for a lot of these Grand Forks and Fargo kids to leave to join some Tier 1 team. They have plenty of competition in ND once the GF schools get balanced out, and creating a Tier 1 team would most likely overcompensate. 

We'll have to agree to disagree.  You can slice and dice the pie to create more parity around the state however all you are doing is watering down the league.  Good players like to play with good players, it adds in a layer of creativity and growth.  I get that creates problems for the rest of the state.  That's the only reason I think they should explore Tier one.  So our better players can play better competition and continue to develop.  I mean, I would have loved to see central's team play against Edina.

[Walsh Hall]

2 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

So with the higher numbers of players at that age, they're essentially able to have a JV team (B1) and a C squad (B). 

Absolutely for the bigger programs.  Many just have one or two teams, i.e. Devils Lake had one team and won the B1 division this year.

[Walsh Hall]

6 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree.  You can slice and dice the pie to create more parity around the state however all you are doing is watering down the league.  Good players like to play with good players, it adds in a layer of creativity and growth.  I get that creates problems for the rest of the state.  That's the only reason I think they should explore Tier one.  So our better players can play better competition and continue to develop.  I mean, I would have loved to see central's team play against Edina.

If the issue that needs to be solved is lack of competition for the very top kids, this seems to be the most logical answer.  They play better competition, and the remaining teams have more parity.

[Ozzie82]

10 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

I mean, I would have loved to see central's team play against Edina.

I'm in the Twin Cities and have never seen ND high school hockey. My assumption, based on nothing other than assumption, is that Edina would crush them but they'd do well in class A MN hockey.

 

Would Central match up well with Edina? Would they match up well with the MN class A champion? Would they likely make the MN state tournament in either A or AA?

[OgieOgilthorpe]

2 minutes ago, Ozzie82 said:

I'm in the Twin Cities and have never seen ND high school hockey. My assumption, based on nothing other than assumption, is that Edina would crush them but they'd do well in class A MN hockey.

 

Would Central match up well with Edina? Would they match up well with the MN class A champion? Would they likely make the MN state tournament in either A or AA?

Based off the small sample size of GFC crushing EGF who lost in the semis and GFC crushing Orono the 2018 1A champs I think GFC would’ve been comparable with St. Cloud Cathedral but likely would’ve had a slight advantage. I think GFC would’ve made the AA tournament and maybe placed top 4, but not really sure they could’ve won it all due to goaltending. 

[Ozzie82]

Thanks. That's kind of what I figured. I assume they'd be a very good A team.

[yzerman19]

Edina is comparable in size to GF...only one high school in Edina .  Could a single high school team from GF compete and potentially win AA?  I think so depending on the year.  

[ndm49]

7 WDA member hockey schools:  BHS, Century, Minot, Mandan, Dickinson, Williston, Jamestown.  8 EDC member hockey schools:  North, South/Shanley, Davies, WF, Sheyenne, Red River, Central, Devils Lake.  None of these schools will ever be Class B or whatever you call the lower division, unless there enrollment drops below the Class A minimum.  The AD's would never go along with it because then you have to create a lower division in every sport so the bottom teams could be competitive.  Bismarck Legacy will add hockey in the next couple years bringing the total to 16 Class A schools playing hockey.  Wahpeton-Breckenridge, another Class A school,  has played as an independent in Minnesota for almost  a decade.

That leaves four current teams for Class B, G-PR, Bottineau, Hazen, and Mayville, so even if you add Watford City,  Langdon, and Crosby you don't have enough for a Class B league to be sanctioned, plus it's wrong to even list Grafton-Park River they would choose to play up.  

Minnesota Section 8A is always won by EGF, TRF, or Warroad, how is that fair to Bagley-Fosston, LOW or Kittson Central?  8AA is Moorhead's to lose every year, where are the change.org petitions for Minnesota?