UND (11-3, 16-8) @ Weber (11-2, 16-8) 2/18 8 PM

[UNDBIZ]

9 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

Since @ Shawn-O was kind enough to drag me into this, and rekindle that whole affair, I have to ask, what on earth does a hockey coach salary have to do with a BB coach salary?  You'd be far better off using peer institution BB data to support the claim that a BB coach is underpaid.  Or at least peer institution WH data to prove that a WH coach is overpaid.

I stand by my earlier statements on the subject that sport-specific market forces drive the numbers, and that sport-to-sport comparisons are useless.

I only make the comparison because it's an absolutely embarrassing representation of the athletic department's misplaced priorities. Our MBB coaches make around half of what ndsu pays theirs and a third of what sdsu pays theirs. 

Appears Scanlan at Bemidji State makes around $50,000 less than our WIH coach. 

[hoops44]

UND basketball coaches lowest paid D1 in the NCAA....Funny and illogical to demand a cadillac hoops program at a hockey rules school...while paying the coaches a yugo salary

[darell1976]

13 minutes ago, hoops44 said:

UND basketball coaches lowest paid D1 in the NCAA....Funny and illogical to demand a cadillac hoops program at a hockey rules school...while paying the coaches a yugo salary

Until this season Jones deserved a Yugo salary as he hasn't proved he deserved more. 

[hoops44]

If you ever looked at facts once for once in your life...Jones more than earned his salary 3 of the last 4 years

[darell1976]

24 minutes ago, hoops44 said:

If you ever looked at facts once for once in your life...Jones more than earned his salary 3 of the last 4 years

With those yearly first round exits in the CIT? 

[fightingsioux4life]

6 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

With those yearly first round exits in the CIT? 

32 minutes ago, hoops44 said:

If you ever looked at facts once for once in your life...Jones more than earned his salary 3 of the last 4 years

I think darell1976 is correct for the seasons before this one and hoops44 is correct for this season only. I just hope this is the beginning of a trend and not a one-year flash in the pan team.

 

[hoops44]

9 hours ago, darell1976 said:

With those yearly first round exits in the CIT? 

I will spell it out for you...Lowest Paid Coach in league and NCAA correlates to a team finishing near the bottom of his league....well guess what Jones got UND in the top half of the league 3 of last 4 years and therefore an intelligent rational person could see he more than earned his last place in BSC salary.  

[darell1976]

4 hours ago, hoops44 said:

I will spell it out for you...Lowest Paid Coach in league and NCAA correlates to a team finishing near the bottom of his league....well guess what Jones got UND in the top half of the league 3 of last 4 years and therefore an intelligent rational person could see he more than earned his last place in BSC salary.  

So if Jones was higher paid UND would have been dancing 3 out of the last 4 years. 

[hoops44]

40 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

So if Jones was higher paid UND would have been dancing 3 out of the last 4 years. 

Never said  or implied that ...any marginally intelligent person could deduct that.  You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.... A mind is a terrible thing to waste

[darell1976]

33 minutes ago, hoops44 said:

Never said  or implied that ...any marginally intelligent person could deduct that.  You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.... A mind is a terrible thing to waste

And yours is well gone. You are saying because jones has an average year, loses in the CIT every year and one year to DII transfer Omaha he should be paid a lot. It doesn't work that way. He needs to earn that money. 20+ wins, beating ranked teams, winning conference and tournament titles that deserves a pay raise. If you do crappy work at your job do you deserve a raise?

[southpaw]

1 hour ago, darell1976 said:

And yours is well gone. You are saying because jones has an average year, loses in the CIT every year and one year to DII transfer Omaha he should be paid a lot. It doesn't work that way. He needs to earn that money. 20+ wins, beating ranked teams, winning conference and tournament titles that deserves a pay raise. If you do crappy work at your job do you deserve a raise?

Actually, I don't think he has said that.  At least not in the last few posts about Jones' salary.

What I believe he is saying is that traditionally you would expect someone making that little of money to have a team near the bottom in wins at D1, especially in conference play. However, Jones has had UND in the top half 3 of his 4 years prior to this year.  So in turn, UND has probably gotten a better return on investment than most schools paying that little would.  Should Jones be paid a little more than he currently makes?  Probably based on the results however in the past both Jones and UND have instead agreed to more years instead of more money.  

[hoops44]

Its like any commodity..  I guy buys a brand new corolla for 15k and I say that's a great/unbelievable deal on a solid basic automobile...and darryl/ beaver l says  geez wally thats not a good deal because a Toyota Avalon is a much sweeter ride....first guy says I got a Unbelievable deal  I mean I got a steal on this car for 15 large for a 20K car  plus thats in my budget and I cannot afford to or rather not spend 35 grand for an Avalon .   Then darryl/beaver says geez wally are you saying that if you paid 35 thousand for that Corolla it would be like a Avalon.....Wally says no darryl/beaver all I said is I got a FANTASTIC deal on my Corolla 

[darell1976]

1 hour ago, southpaw said:

Actually, I don't think he has said that.  At least not in the last few posts about Jones' salary.

What I believe he is saying is that traditionally you would expect someone making that little of money to have a team near the bottom in wins at D1, especially in conference play. However, Jones has had UND in the top half 3 of his 4 years prior to this year.  So in turn, UND has probably gotten a better return on investment than most schools paying that little would.  Should Jones be paid a little more than he currently makes?  Probably based on the results however in the past both Jones and UND have instead agreed to more years instead of more money.  

Since our conference isn't exactly a strong conference shouldn't the bar be a lot higher to give him a raise than just being in the top half of the conference. 

2012-13 12-8 third place in a conference with only 3 teams above .500, and 16-17 overall with loss in CIT first round

2013-14 12-8 tied for second in a conference with 6 teams above. 500 and 17-17 overall with loss in CIT first round

2014-15 4-14 tied for last in a conference with 5 teams above. 500 and 8-22 overall

2015-16 10-8 tied for 5th in a conference with 6 teams above. 500 and 17-16 overall with a loss in CIT first round

2016-17 12-3 first place in a conference with 6 teams above. 500 and 17-8 overall with 3 games left in the regular season (plus tournament)

The bolded part is why I think he shouldn't get a raise, except this year. 

 

[UNDBIZ]

1 hour ago, hoops44 said:

Its like any commodity..  I guy buys a brand new corolla for 15k and I say that's a great/unbelievable deal on a solid basic automobile...and darryl/ beaver l says  geez wally thats not a good deal because a Toyota Avalon is a much sweeter ride....first guy says I got a Unbelievable deal  I mean I got a steal on this car for 15 large for a 20K car  plus thats in my budget and I cannot afford to or rather not spend 35 grand for an Avalon .   Then darryl/beaver says geez wally are you saying that if you paid 35 thousand for that Corolla it would be like a Avalon.....Wally says no darryl/beaver all I said is I got a FANTASTIC deal on my Corolla 

Lol.  Solid analogy.

[siouxfan512]

1 hour ago, hoops44 said:

Its like any commodity..  I guy buys a brand new corolla for 15k and I say that's a great/unbelievable deal on a solid basic automobile...and darryl/ beaver l says  geez wally thats not a good deal because a Toyota Avalon is a much sweeter ride....first guy says I got a Unbelievable deal  I mean I got a steal on this car for 15 large for a 20K car  plus thats in my budget and I cannot afford to or rather not spend 35 grand for an Avalon .   Then darryl/beaver says geez wally are you saying that if you paid 35 thousand for that Corolla it would be like a Avalon.....Wally says no darryl/beaver all I said is I got a FANTASTIC deal on my Corolla 

OR, you could buy a Ford or GMC and Make America Great Again!

[southpaw]

51 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

Since our conference isn't exactly a strong conference shouldn't the bar be a lot higher to give him a raise than just being in the top half of the conference. 

2012-13 12-8 third place in a conference with only 3 teams above .500, and 16-17 overall with loss in CIT first round

2013-14 12-8 tied for second in a conference with 6 teams above. 500 and 17-17 overall with loss in CIT first round

2014-15 4-14 tied for last in a conference with 5 teams above. 500 and 8-22 overall

2015-16 10-8 tied for 5th in a conference with 6 teams above. 500 and 17-16 overall with a loss in CIT first round

2016-17 12-3 first place in a conference with 6 teams above. 500 and 17-8 overall with 3 games left in the regular season (plus tournament)

The bolded part is why I think he shouldn't get a raise, except this year. 

 

There you go again, not actually reading anything that is written and just spouting off the same repetitive stuff.  I had a nice analogy comparing you to a small child but I thought that was inappropriate, despite how accurate it may be.

[darell1976]

11 minutes ago, southpaw said:

There you go again, not actually reading anything that is written and just spouting off the same repetitive stuff.  I had a nice analogy comparing you to a small child but I thought that was inappropriate, despite how accurate it may be.

I'm backing my opinion with stats, where Hoops44 name calls and doesn't back up his theory with facts. Where is the link that Jones is in deed the lowest paid coach in the league.

[southpaw]

7 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

I'm backing my opinion with stats, where Hoops44 name calls and doesn't back up his theory with facts. Where is the link that Jones is in deed the lowest paid coach in the 300+ members of DI basketball. 

I don't know about D1 basketball, but as of 2013 he was the lowest in the Big Sky and the only one not making more than $100,000.  By that time, his teams had already finished 3rd and 2nd in the conference.  Hoops44's point, that you continuously gloss over, is that UND's return for investment has been very high.  Especially when you compare it to other coaches across the NCAA and Big Sky.

[darell1976]

Just now, southpaw said:

I don't know about D1 basketball, but as of 2013 he was the lowest in the Big Sky and the only one not making more than $100,000.  By that time, his teams had already finished 3rd and 2nd in the conference.  Hoops44's point, that you continuously gloss over, is that UND's return for investment has been very high.  Especially when you compare it to other coaches across the NCAA and Big Sky.

3rd, 2nd, then tied for last. Maybe Faison was waiting for a first place, or a dance ticket not a cellar dweller, then back up to average again. Jones has been at or around .500 his whole careeer except a couple seasons. What is a raise worth? Would a raise instantly make UND an at large bid? A winner against ranked teams? Losing to very horrible teams in OOC play and at home against DII transfer Omaha isn't going to make Faison open up the checkbook. 

[darell1976]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/coaching-salaries-und-lag-behind-frontrunners-big-sky-conference-key-areas

 

Quote

 

Some of those contract extensions, Faison said, were partly a trade-off for UND's salary shortcomings.

"One reason was to provide stability given where we are with salary," Faison said. "At the end of the day, we have to continue to work on salaries of both our head coaches and assistant coaches."

 

This why Jones is paid so low, he got more years.

Quote

Mussman, who completed his fifth season as head coach in 2012, makes less than half of what the UC Davis coach is paid.

And we saw how well that extension worked for Muss. Giving him more money wouldn't have helped in that 3 win season in 2013. 

Quote

 

"I look at hockey separately," Faison said. "Hockey generates a significant amount of revenue and therefore requires a significant amount of spending, as well. We have an elite hockey program, and we'll do everything we can to keep it there.

"We have to address these other programs and it's a challenge, but I don't tie (Big Sky salary issues and hockey contracts) together."

 

Maybe he shouldn't look at hockey separately. 

[hoops44]

20 minutes ago, southpaw said:

I don't know about D1 basketball, but as of 2013 he was the lowest in the Big Sky and the only one not making more than $100,000.  By that time, his teams had already finished 3rd and 2nd in the conference.  Hoops44's point, that you continuously gloss over, is that UND's return for investment has been very high.  Especially when you compare it to other coaches across the NCAA and Big Sky.

You are 100% correct .Jones still the lowest paid D1 HC.  Return foR investment has been outstanding......If Mens basketball was the UND marquee winter sport not a distant 2nd and Jones was getting close to top dollar...then there is a beef with his job.  Weber st has killer facilities the coach makes 400k  12000 seating chair backed arena ..Mens Hoops is the signature sport for them.  UND athletics is not talking the talk or walking the walk when it comes to mens basketball being a priority.  If UND gets the BSC title Jones very likelywill be the first lowest paid D1 coach in theNCAA to ever win a conference title

[homer]

10 minutes ago, hoops44 said:

You are 100% correct .Jones still the lowest paid D1 HC.  Return foR investment has been outstanding......If Mens basketball was the UND marquee winter sport not a distant 2nd and Jones was getting close to top dollar...then there is a beef with his job.  Weber st has killer facilities the coach makes 400k  12000 seating chair backed arena ..Mens Hoops is the signature sport for them.  UND athletics is not talking the talk or walking the walk when it comes to mens basketball being a priority.  If UND gets the BSC title Jones very likelywill be the first lowest paid D1 coach in theNCAA to ever win a conference title

Groundbreaking.  

 

 

[darell1976]

10 minutes ago, hoops44 said:

You are 100% correct .Jones still the lowest paid D1 HC.  Return foR investment has been outstanding......If Mens basketball was the UND marquee winter sport not a distant 2nd and Jones was getting close to top dollar...then there is a beef with his job.  Weber st has killer facilities the coach makes 400k  12000 seating chair backed arena ..Mens Hoops is the signature sport for them.  UND athletics is not talking the talk or walking the walk when it comes to mens basketball being a priority.  If UND gets the BSC title Jones very likelywill be the first lowest paid D1 coach in theNCAA to ever win a conference title

Weber State Basketball #1 sport, NDSU football #1 sport, UND men's hockey #1 sport. UND men's basketball #3 sport (maybe 4th behind women's basketball)

[darell1976]

13 minutes ago, hoops44 said:

You are 100% correct .Jones still the lowest paid D1 HC.  Return foR investment has been outstanding......If Mens basketball was the UND marquee winter sport not a distant 2nd and Jones was getting close to top dollar...then there is a beef with his job.  Weber st has killer facilities the coach makes 400k  12000 seating chair backed arena ..Mens Hoops is the signature sport for them.  UND athletics is not talking the talk or walking the walk when it comes to mens basketball being a priority.  If UND gets the BSC title Jones very likelywill be the first lowest paid D1 coach in theNCAA to ever win a conference title

Link please, how far is he behind from coach #350?

[southpaw]

1 hour ago, darell1976 said:

3rd, 2nd, then tied for last. Maybe Faison was waiting for a first place, or a dance ticket not a cellar dweller, then back up to average again. Jones has been at or around .500 his whole careeer except a couple seasons. What is a raise worth? Would a raise instantly make UND an at large bid? A winner against ranked teams? Losing to very horrible teams in OOC play and at home against DII transfer Omaha isn't going to make Faison open up the checkbook. 

Has anyone other than you said this?  Fantastic strawman argument.

50 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/coaching-salaries-und-lag-behind-frontrunners-big-sky-conference-key-areas

 

This why Jones is paid so low, he got more years.

And we saw how well that extension worked for Muss. Giving him more money wouldn't have helped in that 3 win season in 2013. 

Maybe he shouldn't look at hockey separately. 

Welcome to earlier today when I said this exact same thing.  You probably missed it during your childish rant about the same thing over and over.

How well did Muss do in the Big Sky? You're so keen on comparing Jones and Muss, especially during Jones' best year where he is on the verge of winning a Big Sky Conference Championship.  Had Muss finished in the top 3 in the BSC in his first two years, he damn right would have earned an extension even if his OOC record was 1-2 or 1-3.  Again, NOBODY EXCEPT FOR YOU is saying anything about more money making a Jones team more successful.

Why shouldn't sports be looked at differently?  If UND looked at basketball the same way they look at hockey then basketball coaches would last maybe three years at UND.  It's a different animal, with different facilities, different level of opponents on a weekly basis and thus different expectations.

Now, allow me to preemptively stop you from going off on a tangent about basketball being so unsuccessful because of low expectations compared to hockey.