Wal-Mart proposing second Grand Forks location

[fightingsioux4life]

It looks like Wal-Mart is planning to build another Supercenter on the north end of Grand Forks at the corner of Gateway Drive and N 58th Street:

http://www.wdaz.com/event/article/id/14700/

This is a great location to draw in Canadian shoppers and should give the north end a much-needed econcomic boost. I am surprised that Wal-Mart would invest in a "dying" community like Grand Forks (if you believe those bogus census estimates, that is).

[johnsowe]

This is weird Duluth only has one wal-mart and Duluth is alot bigger than Grand Forks. Wal-mart must think there is traffic but I do not see it.

[Siouxperfan7]

This is weird Duluth only has one wal-mart and Duluth is alot bigger than Grand Forks. Wal-mart must think there is traffic but I do not see it.

Canadians!! Now that the Canadian goverment has increased the personal exemption limit for the value of pruducts that can be brought back, Canadians will be buying more and more stuff. Also buliding this ne Walmart in view of !s9 off Gateway drive will be important to for visability.

[82SiouxGuy]

This is weird Duluth only has one wal-mart and Duluth is alot bigger than Grand Forks. Wal-mart must think there is traffic but I do not see it.

Have you been to any retail store or restaurant in Grand Forks on a weekend? They are all packed. The Canadian traffic is huge and probably isn't going to decrease any time soon. The new higher limits on taking goods back to Canada might actually increase the retail business in Grand Forks. Duluth doesn't have a city the size of Winnipeg close enough to come down and shop.

[siouxknocka]

Well Bismarck/Mandan will have 3 once the one in Mandan is built and those two towns combined are probably still smaller than Duluth.

[tnt]

Yeah, the Canadian traffic is probably the impetus for the recent talk by a developer of an outlet mall by 47th ave. south. The problem with that is that they are looking for an interstate interchange there, and we know how likely that is to happen in a timely manner. As usual, Grand Forks will twiddle their thumbs and Fargo will beat them to it and garner more Canadian traffic down there. If Grand Forks would be proactive, they could keep even more Canadians from driving another hour south. Hopefully they move on that as well as the Walmart.

[fightingsioux4life]

If you take a drive into south Grand Forks, there are townhomes, apartments and single-family homes going up all the time. They are constantly building and extending streets and putting in infrastructure for new residential areas. Whether "the experts" choose to believe it or not, Grand Forks is growing. That is amazing considering the devestation of the 1997 flood just 15 years ago. Scheels is building a bigger store in the former Target space in Columbia Mall within the next two years. And a Winnipeg-based manufacturing company, ODRA, which makes street sweepers, is expanding to Grand Forks.

Add in the increased Canadian traffic and you have a bright outlook for the future of Grand Forks.

[fightingsioux4life]

Yeah, the Canadian traffic is probably the impetus for the recent talk by a developer of an outlet mall by 47th ave. south. The problem with that is that they are looking for an interstate interchange there, and we know how likely that is to happen in a timely manner. As usual, Grand Forks will twiddle their thumbs and Fargo will beat them to it and garner more Canadian traffic down there. If Grand Forks would be proactive, they could keep even more Canadians from driving another hour south. Hopefully they move on that as well as the Walmart.

The development you are talking about is huge (involving both commercial and residential projects) and will take a long time and a lot of work by both public and private sectors. The proposed Interstate Interchange at 47th Avenue South involves getting Federal approval, so you really can't totally blame the city for that. Any city would have a tough time getting all those pieces in place.

Having said that, I agree with you that Grand Forks foot-drags way too much on stuff like this. I remember back in 2000 when I was finishing up my Graduate Degree, there was an article in the Dakota Student about the intersection of 42nd Street and University Avenue, which at the time was a four-way stop. Post-flood, it had become increasingly busy and there was talk as to why they didn't put in stoplights. Someone was quoted in the article as saying something to the effect of "We can't do it because it's not part of the original traffic plan". But a couple of years later, they put in the stoplights. I imagine they got criticized big-time for that response and so they changed their tune.

You can bet that the 47th Avenue South interchange will get a bunch of backlash from people that live in the area, complaining about increased traffic and the dangers of crossing the street. That is why we don't have a bridge over the Red River south of downtown. The NIMBY (Not In My Backyard) principal is the "Prime Directive" of Grand Forks. All it takes is one person showing up at a Council Meeting, screaming and (literally) crying that a south-end bridge will result in one of their kids getting run over to permanently kill the idea. Our local government officials (the City Council and the Mayor) for years have not had the backbone to stand up to special interests and the NIMBY crowd that comes up in any planning and zoning issue in any community.

If the NIMBY crowd torpedoes the Wal-Mart project, I will be very, very upset.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

Have you been to any retail store or restaurant in Grand Forks on a weekend? They are all packed. The Canadian traffic is huge and probably isn't going to decrease any time soon. The new higher limits on taking goods back to Canada might actually increase the retail business in Grand Forks. Duluth doesn't have a city the size of Winnipeg close enough to come down and shop.

Stores and restaurants are RIDICULOUSLY packed...so much that, I try to do my shopping on weekdays to avoid the crowds.

[The Sicatoka]

Well Bismarck/Mandan will have 3 once the one in Mandan is built and those two towns combined are probably still smaller than Duluth.

That can be explained in one word: OIL.

A lot of Bakken folks "weekend" in Bismarck.

[The Sicatoka]

When the outlets went in at Albertville (MN) you had to take a rinky-dink off-ramp and drive quite a distance on a frontage road. The improved ramps came later. The same model could work in GF: build it, prove it, add the ramps later. Hey, if there's good shopping people will get there (see: Albertville).

I see Walmart building on Gateway as a nice starting point to begin the process to improve the Gateway corridor from Columbia to the airport.

[ScottM]

WalMart has a track record of building larger stores, and then closing down smaller, older ones in the same locale leaving a real eye sore since they usually don't sell/lease the space to competitors. The city may want to nail that down before they get too excited about *another* WalMart.

[fightingsioux4life]

Stores and restaurants are RIDICULOUSLY packed...so much that, I try to do my shopping on weekdays to avoid the crowds.

The last weekend of August (when UND students come back), I do not set foot in any store in town. It's just too crazy.

[The Sicatoka]

WalMart has a track record of building larger stores, and then closing down smaller, older ones in the same locale leaving a real eye sore since they usually don't sell/lease the space to competitors. The city may want to nail that down before they get too excited about *another* WalMart.

I don't think that'd be an issue for Grand Forks. They have the prime corner (Columbia and 32nd Ave S) and it's also a Sam's Club there. I think this is a tip of the hand by Walmart that they see a lot of retail coming into GF from the west (and north) and want first crack at it.

[fightingsioux4life]

WalMart has a track record of building larger stores, and then closing down smaller, older ones in the same locale leaving a real eye sore since they usually don't sell/lease the space to competitors. The city may want to nail that down before they get too excited about *another* WalMart.

The current Wal-Mart in Grand Forks is NOT a "smaller, older" store. It's a Wal-Mart Supercenter that was extensively renovated and expanded about five or six years ago. It also is located on the biggest, busiest corridor in Grand Forks. I really don't think they are going to close it down anytime soon. You are probably thinking about Target building a Super Target and then vacating the space and leaving it alone for several years. That was an upgrade from a regular Target to a Super Target (with a grocery store and a Starbucks). This is Wal-Mart building another SuperCenter in Grand Forks because of increased demand. I have said it before; Grand Forks IS growing.

[ScottM]

I really don't think they are going to close it down anytime soon. You are probably thinking about Target building a Super Target and then vacating the space and leaving it alone for several years.

http://www.walmartre...ge=&MaxAcreage=

WalMart is one of the largest real estate companies in the world and they have left a lot of "newer" stores empty as their demographics have shifted.

[82SiouxGuy]

The development you are talking about is huge (involving both commercial and residential projects) and will take a long time and a lot of work by both public and private sectors. The proposed Interstate Interchange at 47th Avenue South involves getting Federal approval, so you really can't totally blame the city for that. Any city would have a tough time getting all those pieces in place.

Having said that, I agree with you that Grand Forks foot-drags way too much on stuff like this. I remember back in 2000 when I was finishing up my Graduate Degree, there was an article in the Dakota Student about the intersection of 42nd Street and University Avenue, which at the time was a four-way stop. Post-flood, it had become increasingly busy and there was talk as to why they didn't put in stoplights. Someone was quoted in the article as saying something to the effect of "We can't do it because it's not part of the original traffic plan". But a couple of years later, they put in the stoplights. I imagine they got criticized big-time for that response and so they changed their tune.

You can bet that the 47th Avenue South interchange will get a bunch of backlash from people that live in the area, complaining about increased traffic and the dangers of crossing the street. That is why we don't have a bridge over the Red River south of downtown. The NIMBY (Not In My Backyard) principal is the "Prime Directive" of Grand Forks. All it takes is one person showing up at a Council Meeting, screaming and (literally) crying that a south-end bridge will result in one of their kids getting run over to permanently kill the idea. Our local government officials (the City Council and the Mayor) for years have not had the backbone to stand up to special interests and the NIMBY crowd that comes up in any planning and zoning issue in any community.

If the NIMBY crowd torpedoes the Wal-Mart project, I will be very, very upset.

There are serious conversations happening about the 47th Street interchange. An interchange at Merrifield Road, 1 mile south of 47th, has been on the books for quite a while. The plan was to divert truck traffic over a new Red River bridge to decrease truck traffic through town. The conversation now is whether they should move that back and go after the 47th Street now, whether they should plan both of them, or if they can get away with doing the Merrifield Road now and 47th later. There are pros and cons on all options. But there is serious interest in developing the outlet mall idea. The local MPO is looking at all options and I believe they are planning to make a recommendation later this year.

[fightingsioux4life]

http://www.walmartre...ge=&MaxAcreage=

WalMart is one of the largest real estate companies in the world and they have left a lot of "newer" stores empty as their demographics have shifted.

But I don't think this is an example of that. Grand Forks is primarily growing on the SOUTH END and that doesn't figure to change much. They are not going to give up a prime location on 32nd Avenue South and leave that area to Super Target, Super One Foods and Columbia Mall. I suppose they could close the southend Wal-Mart and use that space to expand Sam's Club (which is also very, very busy). That would also be a big plus for Grand Forks.

[82SiouxGuy]

http://www.walmartre...ge=&MaxAcreage=

WalMart is one of the largest real estate companies in the world and they have left a lot of "newer" stores empty as their demographics have shifted.

The demographics of Grand Forks haven't shifted away from the 32nd Street store. That corridor is going to remain the shopping hub of Grand Forks for a while. Closing that store would be a huge mistake, not the kind of mistake that Walmart makes. A Gateway Drive store would be to siphon off some of the Canadian and northern tier shoppers that don't really want to deal with the hassles of 32nd Street. My guess is that they are trying to steal some of the Target/Best Buy customers that may not like the traffic and crowds. Gateway Drive is never going to become the major shopping hub of Grand Forks.

[tnt]

When the outlets went in at Albertville (MN) you had to take a rinky-dink off-ramp and drive quite a distance on a frontage road. The improved ramps came later. The same model could work in GF: build it, prove it, add the ramps later. Hey, if there's good shopping people will get there (see: Albertville).

I see Walmart building on Gateway as a nice starting point to begin the process to improve the Gateway corridor from Columbia to the airport.

That's kind of what I was getting at. I know there are a lot of hoops to go through for the interchanges and such, but it just sounded like they were saying everything would be way down the line until they figure all that out. By that time, Fargo finds a spot that already has an interchange, and then you aren't going to have two outlet malls that are successful that close to one another. Why not get a frontage road directly from the 32nd avenue interchange going and then do the best you can to fast track the interchange. If the traffic is there on the frontage road, I'm sure the need will be shown to speed things up a bit at all levels.

[The Sicatoka]

There are serious conversations happening about the 47th Street interchange. An interchange at Merrifield Road, 1 mile south of 47th, has been on the books for quite a while. The plan was to divert truck traffic over a new Red River bridge to decrease truck traffic through town. The conversation now is whether they should move that back and go after the 47th Street now, whether they should plan both of them, or if they can get away with doing the Merrifield Road now and 47th later. There are pros and cons on all options. But there is serious interest in developing the outlet mall idea. The local MPO is looking at all options and I believe they are planning to make a recommendation later this year.

To be sure we are all talking about the same thing:

Current Exit 138 is 32nd Ave S

Possible Exit 137 would be at 47th Ave S (by the KOA campground)

Possible Exit 136 would be at 62nd Ave S (not much there for landmarks)

Possible Exit 135 would be at County Road 6 (Ag Depot sits there; currently a bridge over I-29 there; I-29 bends NW/SE there)

Grand Forks needs a further south set of ramps than the current Exit 138.

Personally, looking at aerial maps, I'd say putting it at 62nd Ave S (Exit 136) would be the place:

- going east you're at the south edge of Kings Walk golf course and just a mile south of the proposed outlet mall site*

- go to the west frontage road and a mile south and you're at Ag Depot and that area

It would be a similar setup to Exit 138 (32nd):

- go east and it's retail and residential

- go west and it's more industrial and agricultural

Let me know when I'll be paid for doing Mike Brown's planning.

[nodakvindy]

WalMart has a track record of building larger stores, and then closing down smaller, older ones in the same locale leaving a real eye sore since they usually don't sell/lease the space to competitors. The city may want to nail that down before they get too excited about *another* WalMart.

You mean like Target did when it went across the street and left a gaping hole in Columbia Mall. No reason to think this won't be a second Wal-Mart. They aren't going to abandon the other location, especially with Sam's Club there as well. This new store seems pretty squarely aimed at the Canadians. Also, the old Wal-Marts in Minot and Bismarck seemed to get reutilized in short order.

[nodakvindy]

To be sure we are all talking about the same thing:

Current Exit 138 is 32nd Ave S

Possible Exit 137 would be at 47th Ave S (by the KOA campground)

Possible Exit 136 would be at 62nd Ave S (not much there for landmarks)

Possible Exit 135 would be at County Road 6 (Ag Depot sits there; currently a bridge over I-29 there; I-29 bends NW/SE there)

Grand Forks needs a further south set of ramps than the current Exit 138.

Personally, looking at aerial maps, I'd say putting it at 62nd Ave S (Exit 136) would be the place:

- going east you're at the south edge of Kings Walk golf course and just a mile south of the proposed outlet mall site*

- go to the west frontage road and a mile south and you're at Ag Depot and that area

It would be a similar setup to Exit 138 (32nd):

- go east and it's retail and residential

- go west and it's more industrial and agricultural

Let me know when I'll be paid for doing Mike Brown's planning.

I think Exit 135 makes the most sense. There's already a bridge, so less work would be needed to get offramps there. It's also a good site for a belt road/bypass, with a bridge over to the East side. Outlet malls tend to be sprawling and this area would be a more logical site than so close in to residential areas.

[82SiouxGuy]

To be sure we are all talking about the same thing:

Current Exit 138 is 32nd Ave S

Possible Exit 137 would be at 47th Ave S (by the KOA campground)

Possible Exit 136 would be at 62nd Ave S (not much there for landmarks)

Possible Exit 135 would be at County Road 6 (Ag Depot sits there; currently a bridge over I-29 there; I-29 bends NW/SE there)

Grand Forks needs a further south set of ramps than the current Exit 138.

Personally, looking at aerial maps, I'd say putting it at 62nd Ave S (Exit 136) would be the place:

- going east you're at the south edge of Kings Walk golf course and just a mile south of the proposed outlet mall site*

- go to the west frontage road and a mile south and you're at Ag Depot and that area

It would be a similar setup to Exit 138 (32nd):

- go east and it's retail and residential

- go west and it's more industrial and agricultural

Let me know when I'll be paid for doing Mike Brown's planning.

You are correct, 47th is 2 miles north of Merrifield Road (County 6). As of right now I don't think they are taking a serious look at 62nd, probably because there are no immediate needs at that location. 47th would serve a potential outlet mall and a growing section of town. Merrifield Road would serve the ag community and be a safety measure to remove a large amount of truck traffic from the community. As a compromise, I don't know if 62nd would serve either need well enough to be a great location. If they are going to put a south bridge over the Red River, County Road 6 is by far the best location for that. My guess is that they will look for a way to do the County Road 6 intersection soon and possibly start with some kind of frontage road for an outlet mall at 47th to start, then add an intersection there in another 5-10 years.

[fightingsioux4life]

That's kind of what I was getting at. I know there are a lot of hoops to go through for the interchanges and such, but it just sounded like they were saying everything would be way down the line until they figure all that out. By that time, Fargo finds a spot that already has an interchange, and then you aren't going to have two outlet malls that are successful that close to one another. Why not get a frontage road directly from the 32nd avenue interchange going and then do the best you can to fast track the interchange. If the traffic is there on the frontage road, I'm sure the need will be shown to speed things up a bit at all levels.

This is why I voted for Tyrone Grandstrand in the mayoral race in June. He seemed to grasp the concern that while Grand Forks is doing well, there are things that could be improved. Nothing against Michael Brown, but I hope his eventual successor is a younger, more energetic mayor that takes tnt's approach toward economic and infrastructure development.