Measure 4 tv ad

[UND1983]

I see the "No" supporters took out a large AD on the Forum's website. When I clicked on it, the link was broken and didn't work.

[82SiouxGuy]

I see the "No" supporters took out a large AD on the Forum's website. When I clicked on it, the link was broken and didn't work.

It is on the GF Herald web site also. It basically just says keep the name vote no. It doesn't really give any reasons. It's interesting that they were complaining because the Alumni Association was going to spend money on advertising to have people Vote YES, but didn't mention this campaign. And the link doesn't work from the Herald site either.

[ScottM]

It is on the GF Herald web site also. It basically just says keep the name vote no. It doesn't really give any reasons. It's interesting that they were complaining because the Alumni Association was going to spend money on advertising to have people Vote YES, but didn't mention this campaign. And the link doesn't work from the Herald site either.

I find it amusing that they, and a few others here, are complaining that the UND Alumni Association would fund the "yes" campaign like those monies are public funds. If the "No" camp wasn't so selfishly short-sighted those funds could have been used elsewhere.

[82SiouxGuy]

I find it amusing that they, and a few others here, are complaining that the UND Alumni Association would fund the "yes" campaign like those monies are public funds. If the "No" camp wasn't so selfishly short-sighted those funds could have been used elsewhere.

I think they were just complaining because they knew they couldn't get near that amount of money. They must have been planning an ad campaign since it is on the web site today, just a day after the story complaining about the Alumni campaign.

[ScottM]

I think they were just complaining because they knew they couldn't get near that amount of money. They must have been planning an ad campaign since it is on the web site today, just a day after the story complaining about the Alumni campaign.

Is there any organized group for the No side, or just the same reprobates hanging around SAB, and a few here, who broke into their kids' piggy to fund their campaign and buy more Sioux fan gear?

[82SiouxGuy]

Is there any organized group for the No side, or just the same reprobates hanging around SAB, and a few here, who broke into their kids' piggy to fund their campaign and buy more Sioux fan gear?

The Committee for Understanding and Respect at Spirit Lake still seems to be the focal point for the effort, along with the SAB group. I assume that the Committee is using donations made to their web site for the ads, but I have no evidence of that. Representatives from the Committee seemed to be the people they talked to for the article in the Herald yesterday.

[ScottM]

Where was this "committee" when it actually mattered in 2005 or so? This issue has been going for more than five years for most of us, but it's nice they finally arrived after their help would have made a difference.

Again, where are the tangible benefits for UND to keep the Sioux moniker? It seems pretty selfish of them to not disseminate what advantages there are to UND and its student-athletes in keeping the moniker, beyond wispy notions of "tradition and culture".

And the dear committee seems to have conveniently overlooked the fact that 'SU has scheduled and beaten Minnesota in football in the very recent past, and has also played schools like Kansas and Iowa State. Talk about "deceitful tongues" ...

[82SiouxGuy]

The NCAA, in its attempt to stop discrimination, racism, and hostility toward the Native American imagery, has adopted a policy that resulted in just the opposite toward the Sioux people. This policy, which ultimately resulted in the Settlement Agreement with UND, can be challenged as outside the jurisdiction of the Executive Board at the NCAA, and null and void. The subcommittee had moved to abstain from pursuing the removal of all Native Imagery and leave it solely up to the indigenous tribes to decide for themselves. This was important part of the Settlement Agreement with the NCAA that has been breached. We as the indigenous sovereign namesake tribe from North Dakota have been silenced and ignored throughout the process.

These accusations are false and gross fabrication of the truth. The sanctions that are imposed on UND are minimal, and have been managed effectively.

Minnesota or Wisconsin have not cancelled playing UND as the Fighting Sioux, and other teams that “threaten” to withdraw from scheduling UND are false. These schools are in different conferences or divisions, and there are a very limited number of non-conference competition opportunities each season. We see those who seek to retire the Fighting Sioux name using this to create fear and doubt in the people of North Dakota. UND, Minnesota, and Wisconsin are now in different hockey conferences. The Fighting Sioux will face these schools more often during playoffs due to the non-conference relationship than they would during regular season due to these non-conference relationships. Pairwise ranking is also a big part of hockey playoff berths; these teams will only hurt themselves if they choose not to play tough teams like the Fighting Sioux.

Also, all one needs to do is look at NDSU’s schedule for football. You will see they have not scheduled Minnesota, Iowa, or Wisconsin either, yet their program is strong and vibrant, just as UND’s will be.

The long list of misrepresentation of the truth, the deceitful tongues and twisting of the reality and spinning of the debate have clouded some of the minds of people in North Dakota. But the overwhelming majority of people see through the deceptive tactics.

We have repeatedly asked to participate in the debate, and to debate the issues with our opposition, and have been ignored.

Both Minnesota and Wisconsin adopted their policy on Native names and imagery in 2005; they have not cancelled the events with UND.

Let's play "Shoot Holes in Their Statement". This is not to imply that I am covering every thing that is wrong with this statement, only the really obvious ones. Compare the bolded statements above with the explanation below.

The statement says that the Native American policy can be challenged because it was made outside the jurisdiction of the Executive Committee. THAT WAS THE BASIS OF THE UND LAWSUIT. THE NCAA THEN CHANGED THE JURISDICTION OF THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTE TO ALLOW IT TO MAKE THESE TYPE POLICIES. THAT WAS DONE DURING THE LAWSUIT. THIS IS WHY THE SETTLEMENT WAS AGREED TO. THE NCAA CLOSED THAT LOOPHOLE. UND HAS NO RIGHTS TO SUE AGAIN. Obviously the illustrious Reed Soderstrom is at work again since he has no clue about the settlement.

They continue to claim the sanctions are minimal. That is an amazing claim since most of the effects of the sanctions haven't even started yet. It is also amazing for a group that doesn't understand anything about sports to make about a complex organization like collegiate sports. Obviously they have not competed in collegiate sports, coached collegiate sports or been in administration in collegiate sports. I would believe an Associate Athletic Director at a Division I school, a person like Ray Purpur, and a head football coach like Dale Lennon believe anyone associated with this group.

Obviously this group has no understanding of out-of-conference games. It is very likely that UND could schedule every year or every other year games against both Minnesota and Wisconsin in hockey. Negotiations were in progress with Wisconsin for such a series before the sanctions went into effect. Discussions had also been started with Minnesota. Iowa cancelled games in women's basketball and cancelled an appearance by UND in a track meet. These games could easily continue in future years if not for the sanctions. I won't even get into any other schools that could possibly adopt this policy, such as South Dakota State.

I believe that NDSU is 2-1 against Minnesota in football in the past decade. South Dakota and South Dakota State have also played Minnesota in football. Are these people living in a cave or is this just another example of how little they know about sports?

The statement about deceitful tongues is correct, only the side that is being deceitful is the Committee for Understanding. All you have to do is look at the items I am listing. Fortunately, if the Fargo Forum poll is correct, the people of North Dakota will see through the Committee's deceit and will vote YES on Measure 4. Please let these people know that their lies will not be tolerated and the citizens of North Dakota will do what is best for the University of North Dakota.

They didn't ask to be included in the discussion until the issue had been settled. If they were truly interested in helping with the issue they would have spoken up in 2005 or 2006 and not wait until it was too late.

Minnesota and Wisconsin adopted Native American policies in the late 1990s. They modified their policies after 2005 to fit the NCAA policy. As a matter of fact, the NCAA Best Practices portion of their policy was based on the Wisconsin policy. The policies of both schools were originally written to prevent playing schools with Native American nicknames or logos unless THE SCHOOLS BELONGED TO THE SAME CONFERENCE, THE GAMES WERE IN NCAA TOURNAMENT PLAY, OR THE GAMES WERE ARRANGED BY THEIR CONFERENCE SUCH AS THE BIG 10 VERSUS ACC BASKETBALL SERIES. The NCAA Best Practices policy recommends similar policies for schools. That is why Wisconsin and Minnesota will no longer play UND in hockey once they are in separate conferences, except for playing in the NCAA tournament. The odds of UND playing either school in an individual year are small.

As we can see, the Committee is poorly informed, or outright lying. It is time to move on. UND needs to retire the nickname and logo so they can become a competitive and vibrant member of Division I athletics. Vote YES on Measure 4.

I made an error in the statement about Minnesota and Wisconsin adopting Native American policies. The first policies from both schools came out in 1993, not the late 1990s. Their announcements were made about a week apart, with Wisconsin's original policy much stronger than Minnesota's original policy.

Edited May 24, 2012 by 82SiouxGuy

[jodcon]

There is nothing that SL or SR can do now that will change the fate of UND being sanctioned if the name stays.

The NCAA won this battle by default when UND could not get approval from the 2 tribes.

The NCAA gave UND plenty of time to gain this approval, but the two tribes, because of indifference or politics, either would not or did not give what was required by THE SIGNED DOCUMENT THAT UND AGREED TO, and when you enter a contract and don't hold up your end, the other side wins. Always.

The End.

[82SiouxGuy]

Why do you have to be so hostile and abusive?

Can't take the truth? Your favorite people are spreading lies. How hard is it to figure out that NDSU played Minnesota in football? Not only 1 time, they played them 3 times. In less than a decade. It was on TV and in all the newspapers. A bright 6 year old could have told them that. And read the settlement, it states right in the settlement that neither party can sue the other. That is a legal document. If UND tried to sue they would either be laughed out of court or charged with filing a frivolous lawsuit. Yet the esteemed legal counsel of your favorite people allowed them to put that into the statement. Do you want me to go on?

Keep posting garbage like this and I will keep posting facts to counter. By the way, where is that great college that doesn't have sports? You keep forgetting to fill us in on the details.

[ScottM]

No, but the lies spewed in that ad campaign sure do.

What lies? And please don't confuse "lies" with your own selfish delusions, again.

[82SiouxGuy]

So now you believe that NDSU never played Minnesota in football? Is that because you can't admit that NDSU beat your favorite team in 2 out of 3 games and only lost by 1 in the other?

[82SiouxGuy]

The lies were covered in my "copy and paste" of the Committee for Understanding and Respect's press release. It's on page 2 of this thread, not hard to find if you open your eyes. (opening your mind would help too, not that I expect you to actually do it)

Actually that press release makes a lot of broad accusations, but doesn't have much for details. It does list a bunch of lies that I pointed out right under your post. It probably has more, I only skimmed it because I didn't have time to go through and find all of the lies that you posted here.

[ScottM]

The lies were covered in my "copy and paste" of the Committee for Understanding and Respect's press release. It's on page 2 of this thread, not hard to find if you open your eyes. (opening your mind would help too, not that I expect you to actually do it)

Which begs the question if you even read their screed, let alone comprehend it. (I'd ask you to match it with reality, but I don't want to tax you before the weekend.) But I believe it has enough holes to where it may be mistaken for your dome.

[82SiouxGuy]

Which begs the question if you even read their screed, let alone comprehend it. (I'd ask you to match it with reality, but I don't want to tax you before the weekend.) But I believe it has enough holes to where it may be mistaken for your dome.

He probably accepted it as gospel without reading a single sentence. He may have seen the word lies and thought that somehow this rambling piece of fiction was a legitimate statement.

[82SiouxGuy]

You're biased and delusional. I take your comments with a grain of salt... on second thought, considering the source I better take the entire salt shaker. You have zero credibility with me.

I would be scared if you agreed with me on anything at this point. I would be worried about Alzheimer's or a similar affliction. Your increasing delusions are somewhat alarming.

[geaux_sioux]

You're biased and delusional. I take your comments with a grain of salt... on second thought, considering the source I better take the entire salt shaker. You have zero credibility with me.

Easy on the irony Dave, it's like drinking it from a fire hose

[82SiouxGuy]

They don't play every year and they have many other potential non-conference opponents to choose from. Nobody NEEDS to play the Gophers, which is what the point was. I understand that underdeveloped minds like yours tend to take everything so literally that they are not capable of reading between the lines and figuring things out for themselves. I'm sorry I don't have time to paint a picture for you.

Also, all one needs to do is look at NDSU’s schedule for football. You will see they have not scheduled Minnesota, Iowa, or Wisconsin either, yet their program is strong and vibrant, just as UND’s will be.

Words have meanings. Putting words together into sentences or statements helps communicate thoughts. This is a direct statement from your beloved press release, and the statement is either an outright lie or the proof that no one on the Committee knows anything about sports. In spite of the fact that they know nothing about sports, they are trying to tell UND how to run the Universities athletic department. This statement alone proves that the Committee should not have anything to say about what will or will not damage the University.

[sweetsioux33]

I no longer live in North Dakota, but I graduated from and worked for UND many, many years ago. It is just unbelievable to me that they have betrayed the wishes of thousands of alumni to come out against the Fighting Sioux name. It is wrong to vote Yes. No matter what, they should be with Spirit Lake and the Standing Rock members who wanted to honor their forefathers and elders and allow the University of North Dakota to remain the Fighting Sioux.

[82SiouxGuy]

What year schedule were they looking at for NDSU? You don't know because it didn't specify, so they very well may not have had the Gophers scheduled that year because like I said they don't play every year. Why is it that you think EVRYTHING has to be so damn literal? It must be because you lack the intelligence required to figure anything that isn't literal.

You will see they have not scheduled Minnesota,

This statement says "have not". It doesn't mean a specific year. It is inclusive. It means that NDSU has not ever played Minnesota. It is false. It is wrong. If they knew anything about sports at all they would have know that this is a false statement. All 3 games that NDSU played against Minnesota were news on every TV station in North Dakota and in every newspaper. They should have know that without by accident. They don't know anything about sports, yet you believe that they understand the actual damages that the sanctions will inflict on UND. They are wrong and so are you. It is time to move on and retire the nickname. Vote YES on Measure 4.

[Teeder11]

I no longer live in North Dakota, but I graduated from and worked for UND many, many years ago. It is just unbelievable to me that they have betrayed the wishes of thousands of alumni to come out against the Fighting Sioux name. It is wrong to vote Yes. No matter what, they should be with Spirit Lake and the Standing Rock members who wanted to honor their forefathers and elders and allow the University of North Dakota to remain the Fighting Sioux.

Ok, thanks. You lost me at "I no longer live in North Dakota."

[82SiouxGuy]

I no longer live in North Dakota, but I graduated from and worked for UND many, many years ago. It is just unbelievable to me that they have betrayed the wishes of thousands of alumni to come out against the Fighting Sioux name. It is wrong to vote Yes. No matter what, they should be with Spirit Lake and the Standing Rock members who wanted to honor their forefathers and elders and allow the University of North Dakota to remain the Fighting Sioux.

The Alumni Association is doing what is best for the University of North Dakota. The sanctions that UND is subject to by the NCAA will slowly destroy the athletic department. You don't have to believe me, but you can believe all of the coaches in the athletic department, they all support changing the name. Hakstol and Mussman have publicly said so. You can believe UND athletic hall of fame members that have said so. You can believe Dale Lennon, who has said that it is already causing recruits to avoid the school. You can believe Ray Purpur, a UND grad who has worked in college athletics for many years and is in the athletic department for Stanford. You can believe Jim Kleinsasser and his sister, very successful former UND athletes. The NCAA policy against Native American imagery is going to win. Either UND retires the name or the sanctions will destroy the athletic department. Most of us here on this site agree with the Alumni Association that the price of keeping the name is too high and it is time to retire the name. If you want more details I can provide you with all the details of the situation going back years.

[82SiouxGuy]

It says look at their schedule (not schedules, but schedule), they have not scheduled Minnesota. Maybe it means they "have not" scheduled them in 2012. That is not a false statement. You are wrong, it is time to stand up and fight back against the PC movement. We need to dig our heels in and refuse to budge. Vote NO on Measure 4. A yes vote is hostile and abusive to both Native Americans and Sioux sports.

Your command of composition seems to be as bad as your logic. Sorry Dave, the sentence has a meaning and it is a false statement. Saying that NDSU didn't play Minnesota in a single year is a meaningless statement. Minnesota doesn't even play every team in the Big 10 every year. The statement says that NDSU has not played Minnesota. Spin it all you want, all you are going to do is get dizzy.

[sweetsioux33]

I have hundreds of family members who are voting NO. I donate to the University, and have family members who played football for UND. Unfortunately, for many of you, the vote will be close, but we will remain the Fighting Sioux folks. BTW... who cares if we play Minnesota in football in the next five years, they are rebuilding now. The power of the Fighting Sioux name will live on.

[sweetsioux33]

I have all the history as I was part of it, more than most of you. I worked there in the 1990s and the cultivation of Ralph and others. Those you mentioned are having to walk along the line with the administration or they will be let go. I have read these boards and all the ridiculous accusations at other posters. I finally had to say something. UND will be fine, either way!