The Lastest from S.A.B.

[yababy8]

And it worked.

The captain of the team you support is more interested in playing than what's on his shirt that day.

Whoever said "overwhelming support" isn't anymore has proof right there.

Your making them mutually exclusive and they are not. Ask chewey and fetch if they agree with lammy's statement. I know I do.

[Goon]

The reality is that the majority of people who are saying that they will not donate to UND if they drop the name actually never have donated in the first place. I believe the Champions club had a record year.

I don't think some people realize that they are donating money to the University of North Dakota when you buy your season tickets for hockey. I don't see season tickets for hockey suffering and football tickets sales will probably pick up with UND being in the Big Sky Conference.

[iramurphy]

Ira:

Donating money at this time just feels like a bad investment, kind of like a corporation. Lots of hard working people at company X, just like these kids in UND athletics work hard. It doesn't make it a sound investment, not until the uncertainty goes away, one way or the other. As for the causes of uncertainty, that has been discussed here ad nauseum. As for my annual donation, it was a measly four figures, I'm sure you and you're coffee buddies can find pocket change to make up the difference. For the record, I did not state my stance on the nickname. Go ahead and judge my level of intellect based on this logic...however much or little the amount, it is a budget item that I will invest as I see fit.

You make a good point. I don't get to coffee often and I live in Minnesota so these guys aern't going to help donate. I still have to work. 4 figure donations are big donations and we can't afford to lose those donors. Read my post. I didn't make my comment personal on purpose, I just think we are way past blaming UND and UND administration for this mess, especially the ones who are there now. The enemy is the NCAA and the problem is the referendums and the proposed legislation that will handcuff UND.

[Goon]

You make a good point. I don't get to coffee often and I live in Minnesota so these guys aern't going to help donate. I still have to work. 4 figure donations are big donations and we can't afford to lose those donors. Read my post. I didn't make my comment personal on purpose, I just think we are way past blaming UND and UND administration for this mess, especially the ones who are there now. The enemy is the NCAA and the problem is the referendums and the proposed legislation that will handcuff UND.

I think you're right Ira. None of them were here when the settlement was reached. I also blame the people that worked on the settlement with the NCAA.

[Fetch]

But they get credit for trying to too quickly wrap it up & remove everything before it was really over

[The Sicatoka]

But they get credit for trying to too quickly wrap it up & remove everything before it was really over

The settlement ended it.

Al Carlson tried to renege on a deal (a legal contract). That's not how North Dakota works. Shame on Al.

[82SiouxGuy]

But they get credit for trying to too quickly wrap it up & remove everything before it was really over

They were following orders from their bosses, the SBoHE. What happens when you don't follow direct orders from your boss? You don't work there any more. Blame the SBoHE if you think they moved too quickly, Kelley and Faison were just doing their jobs.

[Goon]

They were following orders from their bosses, the SBoHE. What happens when you don't follow direct orders from your boss? You don't work there any more. Blame the SBoHE if you think they moved too quickly, Kelley and Faison were just doing their jobs.

I think they were trying to get compliant with the NCAA so they wouldn't face sanctions. That's the way I looked at it.

[Fetch]

smugly comes to mind (want a link to that)

[82SiouxGuy]

I think they were trying to get compliant with the NCAA so they wouldn't face sanctions. That's the way I looked at it.

That was the goal for both the SBoHE and the UND administration. But the SBoHE were the ones that set the timeline in place and made all final decisions. UND administration implemented the plans.

[Fetch]

smugly

[Goon]

That was the goal for both the SBoHE and the UND administration. But the SBoHE were the ones that set the timeline in place and made all final decisions. UND administration implemented the plans.

Yeah, I think most of us realized that the Nickname was gone and the University was under a tight deadline to get compliant. it was kind all at once. I myself was shocked how fast the nickname and logo disappeared.

[82SiouxGuy]

Yeah, I think most of us realized that the Nickname was gone and the University was under a tight deadline to get compliant. it was kind all at once. I myself was shocked how fast the nickname and logo disappeared.

The actual operation went quickly. But they were told in August that it was going to happen so they had time to set up a plan. Besides, they had started the planning process before the law was passed. So they probably just had to dust off the file and put the plan in action.

[82SiouxGuy]

smugly

Your impression.

[Teeder11]

Your impression.

And a very biased and jaded impression at that.

[Fetch]

I find not really trying to save the name & the willingness to get it over fast Jaded

& I don't care what you two think because you have had the same jaded & biased & smug attitudes

[82SiouxGuy]

Fast? The first complaints about the name started more than 40 years ago. Real complaints took place through much of the 1990's which is why Baker dropped the geometric logo and why Kupchella was looking at dropping the nickname. The NCAA started looking at Native American nickname issues in about 2000. They implemented the policy in 2005 and it was supposed to go into effect in 2006. UND sued in 2006 to put things on hold. The settlement happened in 2007, with a deadline to get approval by 2010 and the name needing to be changed by Aug 15, 2011. None of this has been fast. It is excruciatingly slow and dragged out.

[Fetch]

more spin - I was talking about since Kelly took over & his smug attitude - as if he was the MAN to get it done

It's not over yet

[82SiouxGuy]

more spin - I was talking about since Kelly took over & his smug attitude - as if he was the MAN to get it done

It's not over yet

What spin? Those were the facts and actual dates. Kelley took office in 2008, almost 4 years ago. He wasn't in charge of the nickname, the SBoHE was and you know it. And he isn't smug. Have you met the man? Have you talked to him, or are you basing all of your impressions on simple blind hatred of whomever is involved in the process? You and the others like you would have thought it was too fast if the name change was timed by the formation of a glacier.

[Fetch]

do you work for him or UND ?

[82SiouxGuy]

No, I don't. I've met him a few times at events around Grand Forks and at UND. He likes to talk with people and is easy to approach. But I don't know why it would make a difference if I did work for UND. It doesn't mean that I couldn't be objective. Try it some time.

[yababy8]

Fast? The first complaints about the name started more than 40 years ago. Real complaints took place through much of the 1990's which is why Baker dropped the geometric logo and why Kupchella was looking at dropping the nickname. The NCAA started looking at Native American nickname issues in about 2000. They implemented the policy in 2005 and it was supposed to go into effect in 2006. UND sued in 2006 to put things on hold. The settlement happened in 2007, with a deadline to get approval by 2010 and the name needing to be changed by Aug 15, 2011. None of this has been fast. It is excruciatingly slow and dragged out.

Any chance you know when the first NCAA NA policy discussions started. Like down to the month? I am curious??

[82SiouxGuy]

Any chance you know when the first NCAA NA policy discussions started. Like down to the month? I am curious??

No. But according to a statement from Bernard Franklin of the NCAA they were working on it in 2001.

http://archives.republicans.edlabor.house.gov/archive/hearings/109th/fc/ncaa121506/franklin.htm

Several events prompted the Executive Committee’s discussion, deliberation and policy decision on the presence of Native American mascots, nicknames and imagery at NCAA championships, including a strongly worded statement from the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights (2001) calling for an end to the use of Native American images and team names by non-native schools [Attachment 1]. The issue generated further discussion within the NCAA membership and an internal request was brought to review the matter. The Executive Committee requested the NCAA Minority Opportunities and Interests Committee (MOIC) and the NCAA Executive Committee Subcommittee on Gender and Diversity Issues review the usage of Native American mascots, symbols and imagery in athletics by member institutions.

In October 2002, the MOIC presented a report to the Executive Committee that noted, among other things, that 90 percent of the comments received from member institutions and the public supported the elimination of Native American mascots, nicknames, logos and images in intercollegiate athletics. That report is available to the public. The MOIC also forwarded correspondence to over 500 Native American tribes and councils to obtain their thoughts and comments. Ninety-nine percent of the responses in this category requested the NCAA to ban the use of Native American mascots in intercollegiate athletics.

Based on the findings of the MOIC that also were supported by the Executive Committee Subcommittee on Gender and Diversity Issues, the Executive Committee concluded that the use of Native American mascots, nicknames and imagery in intercollegiate athletics was a core issue affecting the entire Association. Under the NCAA constitution, it had an obligation to act. Accordingly, on August 4, 2005, the Executive Committee by unanimous vote adopted a policy regarding the use and display of Native American imagery at NCAA championship events.

Maybe this quote from the original press release announcing the policy will help you.

http://a.espncdn.com/pdf/2012/0305/doc_0.pdf

Three events prompted initial discussion on mascots within the Association in April 2001-membership feedback; ongoing issues surrounding the Confederate Battle Flag; and the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights" statement on the use of American Indian imagery as sports symbols.

From the same press release.

In November 2004, 33 schools were asked to submit self evaluations to the NCAA National Office to determine the extent, if any, of the use of Native Americanimagery or references on their campuses. Specific aspects of the self evaluations centered on three NCAA Constitution principles that reference cultural diversity and gender equity (Article 2.2.2); the principle of sportsmanship and ethical conduct (Article 2.4); and the principle of nondiscrimination (Article 2.6).

Eighteen colleges and universities continue to use Native American imagery or references and are subject to the new policy:

Alcorn State University (Braves)

Central Michigan University (Chippewas)

Catawba College (Indians)

Florida State University (Seminoles)

Midwestern State University (Indians)

University of Utah (Utes)

Indiana University-Pennsylvania (Indians)

Carthage College (Redmen)

Bradley University (Braves)

Arkansas State University (Indians)

Chowan College (Braves)

University of Illinois-Champaign (Illini)

University of Louisiana-Monroe (Indians)

McMurry University (Indians)

Mississippi College (Choctaws)

Newberry College (Indians)

University of North Dakota (Fighting Sioux)

Southeastern Oklahoma State University (Savages)

Fourteen schools have removed all references to Native American culture or were deemed not to have references to Native American culture as part of their athletics programs: California State-Stanislaus University; Lycoming College; Winona State University; Hawaii-Manoa University; Eastern Connecticut State University; East Stroudsburg University; Husson College; Merrimack College; Southeast Missouri State University; State University of West Georgia; Stonehill College; San Diego State University; Wisconsin Lutheran College; and the University of North Carolina-Pembroke.

The College of William and Mary has been given an extension to complete its self-study on the mascot issue.

Besides Florida State, Utah and Central Michigan, I know that Mississipi College got to keep the Choctaws, I think that Catawba College got to keep Indians by becoming the Catawba College Catawba Indians, and I believe at least 1 other school got off the sanctions list and got to use the Native American nickname.

[yababy8]

humm??...

So this happens in 2000:

"Please be advised that if this logo and slogan are not approved by you no later than Friday, December 29, 2000... If the logo and slogan are not approved by the above-mentioned date, I will then write a letter on December 30, 2000, to all contractors and to everybody associated with the arena, canceling their construction contracts for the completion of the arena"

Then about three months later the this comes out:

http://www.aics.org/mascot/civilrights.html

Commission Statement on the Use of Native American Images and Names as Sports Symbols Issued April 13, 2001.

and to suggest that the NCAA was targeting UND as simply ludicrous?...

Hmmm??

[82SiouxGuy]

Wow!!! Now that is a leap. That might be a world record for the long jump.

If you know anything about the US government you would know that they work on things for a long time before they issue statements like that. They were probably working on the issue for years before issuing a statement, not just 3 months. If you truly believe that Ralph's letter was the catalyst for the United States Commission on Civil Rights report, as well as the NCAA policy on Native American imagery you are really delusional. UND and Ralph Engelstad are not the center of the universe.

Native American nicknames and imagery being used for sports teams have been an issue for many years. UND was just part of that issue because they had an active opposing group. The NCAA targeted 33 schools, not just UND. And this was just the first wave of their efforts to remove ethic or culturally sensitive nicknames. They will come back and try again to remove the rest of the Native American names. They will move on to others until all human-related nicknames are removed from college sports. This wasn't a vendetta against UND. You really do like conspiracy theories, don't you.