North Dakota v. Western Illinois

[UND92,96]

Western Illinois did not play a zone but a tight switching defense that gave us fits the first 12 minutes of the game. Webb and Schuler kept us in the game the first half as the starters struggled. Mitchell came out strong in the second half and the Sioux held a couple short leads. We continue to take horrible shots by the same players and each time it leads to easy buckets by the opposition. We are still growing but the same mistakes continue to happen. Its up to the coaches to discipline and make some of the players realize the importance of every possession. We need to work on good open shots and our defense breaks down alot with penetrating guards. Its early but this is a game we should have won. Go Sioux

Sure looked like zone to me, which was probably why penetration and Brekke on the inside were taken away so effectively. In any event, I think it's safe to say UND will see very little straight-up man defense this season, and will need to figure out a way to attack zones better than what we've seen so far.

Does anybody know what the story is with Goodman?

[sioux2013]

From what I understand he is shooting in practice so I'm not sure if he is shooting what is holding him back at this point. I guess time will tell.

[sioux24/7]

I really think we would beat this is a team we would beat more times than not.

[bincitysioux]

Boo on this loss..................

[sioux24/7]

Wow I just looked at the schedule for home games and there is only 1 interesting game between now and when they play the Bison on January 17th and that is December 15th against South Dakota State.

[star2city]

After the Jamestown game, the next six games will more or less decide UND's RPI (and therefore the season).

At Idaho St

At UMKC

SDSU

At SDSU

At Sac St

At W Ill

Unless UND beats New Mexico, Kansas, or, more possibly, La Tech (at La Tech), the schedule vs Great West teams will be an RPI killer.

[sioux2013]

After the Jamestown game, the next six games will more or less decide UND's RPI (and therefore the season).

At Idaho St

At UMKC

SDSU

At SDSU

At Sac St

At W Ill

Unless UND beats New Mexico, Kansas, or, more possibly, La Tech (at La Tech), the schedule vs Great West teams will be an RPI killer.

I'd think we would be a favorite in everyone of the above games except the SDSU games. But that doesn't always mean a victory when it comes to basketball. Several areas need to be cleaned up. Go Sioux

[the green team]

Sure looked like zone to me, which was probably why penetration and Brekke on the inside were taken away so effectively. In any event, I think it's safe to say UND will see very little straight-up man defense this season, and will need to figure out a way to attack zones better than what we've seen so far.

Does anybody know what the story is with Goodman?

Actually, they said during the radio broadcast the only defense that W. Illinois plays is a man to man that switches everything and once they close off the drive, they sag off you so they can take away any pass to the post. I give W. Illinois credit, they definitely know how to defend- it was proven against us and I believe they held Michigan to just 59 points. As much as we struggled with our offense against their defense though I was more discouraged with our defensive effort. That's a reflection on our guys not taking the opponent seriously. As coach remarked in his comments after the game that the staff can tell the guys until they are nearly blue in the face that they had better respect the opponent, but it's the actual players that have to carry out the message. They didn't do that in this one. It's a maturity thing and a tough lesson to learn. But hopefully it's been learned. Also, I request that our team start valuing possesions a little more. That doesn't mean you have to use the entire shot clock it just means take care of the ball. Quit giving the ball away especially with unforced turnovers- that is frustrating. I don't care if the best scoring opportunity comes in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock or the last 10, but quit turning the ball over so at least you get a shot.

[the green team]

Also, they haven't mentioned anything on the injury front in recent broadcasts, but I think it was about 4 games ago that they mentioned on the radio that Goodman had a setback with his previous injury and at that time there wasn't any time table for his return. That's all I've heard and there hasn't been an update that I've heard of. Has anyone else?

[Ole in MSP]

Actually, they said during the radio broadcast the only defense that W. Illinois plays is a man to man that switches everything and once they close off the drive, they sag off you so they can take away any pass to the post. I give W. Illinois credit, they definitely know how to defend- it was proven against us and I believe they held Michigan to just 59 points. As much as we struggled with our offense against their defense though I was more discouraged with our defensive effort. That's a reflection on our guys not taking the opponent seriously. As coach remarked in his comments after the game that the staff can tell the guys until they are nearly blue in the face that they had better respect the opponent, but it's the actual players that have to carry out the message. They didn't do that in this one. It's a maturity thing and a tough lesson to learn. But hopefully it's been learned. Also, I request that our team start valuing possesions a little more. That doesn't mean you have to use the entire shot clock it just means take care of the ball. Quit giving the ball away especially with unforced turnovers- that is frustrating. I don't care if the best scoring opportunity comes in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock or the last 10, but quit turning the ball over so at least you get a shot.

I did not see or listen to the game, but in the box score I noticed that Huff was 1/6 from 3 pt, and 2/11 on normal shots. Anybody got some insight on that? Tough stats for a starter with his athletic ability.

[UND92,96]

Actually, they said during the radio broadcast the only defense that W. Illinois plays is a man to man that switches everything and once they close off the drive, they sag off you so they can take away any pass to the post. I give W. Illinois credit, they definitely know how to defend- it was proven against us and I believe they held Michigan to just 59 points. As much as we struggled with our offense against their defense though I was more discouraged with our defensive effort. That's a reflection on our guys not taking the opponent seriously. As coach remarked in his comments after the game that the staff can tell the guys until they are nearly blue in the face that they had better respect the opponent, but it's the actual players that have to carry out the message. They didn't do that in this one. It's a maturity thing and a tough lesson to learn. But hopefully it's been learned. Also, I request that our team start valuing possesions a little more. That doesn't mean you have to use the entire shot clock it just means take care of the ball. Quit giving the ball away especially with unforced turnovers- that is frustrating. I don't care if the best scoring opportunity comes in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock or the last 10, but quit turning the ball over so at least you get a shot.

I won't argue that technically speaking, WIU plays some sort of man defense. But the phrase Jones used in the Herald article was something to the effect that they "pack it in so much on defense", so in essence it creates the same problems for UND as zone defense does--penetration was very difficult and Brekke could not get shots. Against teams like this, I question whether there are enough 3-point shooters on the team? Mitchell and Schuler certainly are, and at times Anderson, Webb and Huff can knock down 3's, but I wouldn't classify any of them as pure shooters. It seems to me that if somebody like Haugen is going to have a role, it has to be as a shooter against sagging defenses. I'm also concerned about the future as once Mitchell graduates, is there somebody else who can take his place in terms of providing another 3-point shooter?

[sioux2013]

I did not see or listen to the game, but in the box score I noticed that Huff was 1/6 from 3 pt, and 2/11 on normal shots. Anybody got some insight on that? Tough stats for a starter with his athletic ability.

Shots just weren't falling for Huff. Some good looks and then several bad shots. He did however have a career high in assists and thought he made some very nice moves down the middle and when he was double/triple teamed he found the open man for the shot instead of forcing a shot. He creates so much havic for the defense when he penetrates and this game he found the open man on several occasions which is very promising. He is like any other shooter there will be good shooting games and some bad ones also unfortuneatly.

[NODAK13]

I won't argue that technically speaking, WIU plays some sort of man defense. But the phrase Jones used in the Herald article was something to the effect that they "pack it in so much on defense", so in essence it creates the same problems for UND as zone defense does--penetration is very difficult and Brekke could not get shots. Against teams like this, I question whether there are enough 3-point shooters on the team? Mitchell and Schuler certainly are, and at times Anderson, Webb and Huff can knock down 3's, but I wouldn't classify any of them as pure shooters. It seems to me that if somebody like Haugen is going to have a role, it has to be as a shooter against sagging defenses. I'm also concerned about the future as once Mitchell graduates, is there somebody else who can take his place in terms of providing another 3-point shooter?

Next year losing MItchell is gong to be huge because we are going to have the exact same team next year entering the Big Sky less Mitchell. There are no more scholarships as has been discussed in other threads unless UND makes a few roster changes and brings in a JUCO player. Most teams dont play a zone so hopefully this wont happen very often but currently we have Mitchell, Schuler and Anderson that can effectively make the 3's. The problem with beating a zone is penetration by the guards and a dish out for a wide open three and we did not do this against Montana. Another way to attack is bring Brekke out top and drop the pass down to him and he can dish to his left or right for an open look. I'm sure after the Montana game the boys have worked on a few things. We have the shooters as Webb, Anderson and Schuler are all shooting over 40% from three which is excellent and Mitchell is always a threat from 3. The next month will be a very tough strech for the mens team.

[Smoggy]

The first half of the first half Western was in a hybrid zone. They would sag a ridiculous amount, so much so that they had sometimes 4 guys in the paint to make sure we couldn't get the ball inside. They dared us to shoot the 3 and we couldn't do it. Essentially their D wasn't a traditional zone defense because they did match up. It really looked like a matchup zone as the paint defenders weren't moving. And I don't consider it a man when we can get as many open shots from 3 as we wanted.

[the green team]

The first half of the first half Western was in a hybrid zone. They would sag a ridiculous amount, so much so that they had sometimes 4 guys in the paint to make sure we couldn't get the ball inside. They dared us to shoot the 3 and we couldn't do it. Essentially their D wasn't a traditional zone defense because they did match up. It really looked like a matchup zone as the paint defenders weren't moving. And I don't consider it a man when we can get as many open shots from 3 as we wanted.

Hey I'm just relaying what I heard the coach's called it. Apparrently, it has all of us baffled- with so many opinions and takes on it. So maybe Molinari (WIU, Head Coach) is the defensive genius people say he is. Because none of us can come to a consensus of whether they were playing zone or man, and our players couldn't decipher it frequently enough to be successful against it either.

[sioux2013]

The first half of the first half Western was in a hybrid zone. They would sag a ridiculous amount, so much so that they had sometimes 4 guys in the paint to make sure we couldn't get the ball inside. They dared us to shoot the 3 and we couldn't do it. Essentially their D wasn't a traditional zone defense because they did match up. It really looked like a matchup zone as the paint defenders weren't moving. And I don't consider it a man when we can get as many open shots from 3 as we wanted.

It was no doubt a switching man to man. It was not a zone. We shot 41.7% from 3 for the game and any team would take that any game of the week. Our shots from three were not the issue. Turnovers and poor possessions were the issue. This team held the 15th ranked team in the nation to 58 points. I'd say they gave Michigan more fits than us and that is a good sign for us. There defense was one of the best I've seen in years come into Grand Forks. We get another crack at them in a few weeks which I am looking forward to.

[UND92,96]

Hindsight is of course 20/20, but in retrospect UND probably should have leaned a bit more on the top six players to play more minutes in a slowdown game like this. Points and possessions were at such a premium that when there were lineups out there with only two or three scorers, it was a problem. WIU only played eight, and two of those eight didn't play much. You may struggle to make it through an entire season with that short of a bench, but it worked for them in the short term anyway.

[sioux24/7]

I don't know if anyone else noticed this but when Wilmer was in, Western Illinois would screen the guard on his side and he would come charging in for help defense and every time they got the ball to the big man who Wilmer was guarding for an easy bucket. I really like the potential of Wilmer but that just stuck out to me and I am not even sure if it is his fault.

[Smoggy]

It was no doubt a switching man to man. It was not a zone. We shot 41.7% from 3 for the game and any team would take that any game of the week. Our shots from three were not the issue. Turnovers and poor possessions were the issue. This team held the 15th ranked team in the nation to 58 points. I'd say they gave Michigan more fits than us and that is a good sign for us. There defense was one of the best I've seen in years come into Grand Forks. We get another crack at them in a few weeks which I am looking forward to.

I'm shocked we shot that well from three. It was all we were shooting in the first part of the game and we were not making them.

Here's what I was seeing with their D. Early in the game from what I remember they were playing an area. Keeping 3 guys in the lane and then rushing out to whoever was shooting. These guys weren't moving other than out to the shooter; hence a zone. Now this was on the backside and maybe they weren't forced to move because our offensive guys weren't moving. Where the screens were happening they manned up and switched. And what I don't think I clarified very well in my first post was that even if they were in man, they were sagging so much on help side that it was essentially a zone.

Again this was for like first 5-10 minutes. The rest of the time they played a man D and jumped the screen and rolls forcing our dribbler higher and not allowing us to pass.

I agree that we had poor turnovers and decisions again. I also didn't think we played very well on D. For us being a screen and roll offensive team we did not do a good job playing defense against them when they did it.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Smoggy

[sioux2013]

Hindsight is of course 20/20, but in retrospect UND probably should have leaned a bit more on the top six players to play more minutes in a slowdown game like this. Points and possessions were at such a premium that when there were lineups out there with only two or three scorers, it was a problem. WIU only played eight, and two of those eight didn't play much. You may struggle to make it through an entire season with that short of a bench, but it worked for them in the short term anyway.

I also noticed that Western Illinois only played 6-7 players and also noticed we had some lineups to where we only had 2 real scoring threats on the floor at the same time. We are currently very solid going 6 deep from a scoring stand point and beyond that is still a big question mark. I think as the year progresses we will only go 7 deep for the most part. Also Western moved the ball very efficient and very quick on offense. I was very impressed with their motion. Go Sioux

[LakoTanolonger]

sioux2013 " I'd say they gave Michigan more fits than us and that is a good sign for us" huh? thats not how things work.

listen, und had a good win vs montana and a bad loss vs a bad wiu team, lets just call it what it is. a season and up and downs for a young squad, right?

[sioux2013]

sioux2013 " I'd say they gave Michigan more fits than us and that is a good sign for us" huh? thats not how things work.

listen, und had a good win vs montana and a bad loss vs a bad wiu team, lets just call it what it is. a season and up and downs for a young squad, right?

Agree Western Illinois was a bad loss but in college basketball anything is possible and more so when they take the 15th rank team down to the wire on the road they are a dangerous team. Whether they can do that night in and night out is a different story but on 2 occassions so far this year they played well.

[108498]

The voting of sioux fans is slowing down again. Lets continue to show our support and raise the bar. Vote football coach of the year.

[Ole in MSP]

Agree Western Illinois was a bad loss but in college basketball anything is possible and more so when they take the 15th rank team down to the wire on the road they are a dangerous team. Whether they can do that night in and night out is a different story but on 2 occassions so far this year they played well.

Two things, one positive, one negative: WIU lost by 4 at Michigan, good for UND's credit, Michigan looked like %^&* against Duke in Maui, brings Michigan into question. Bottom line; UND playing as well as they can for 40 minutes can be a very good team. Not playing as well as they can, they can be beaten by mediocrity. Hopefully the guys play at the top of their game, injuries stay away, Huff gets out of his funk, and with a litttle luck, it could be a great season. Go Sioux, or whomever the hell we are now.

[sioux2013]

Two things, one positive, one negative: WIU lost by 4 at Michigan, good for UND's credit, Michigan looked like %^&* against Duke in Maui, brings Michigan into question. Bottom line; UND playing as well as they can for 40 minutes can be a very good team. Not playing as well as they can, they can be beaten by mediocrity. Hopefully the guys play at the top of their game, injuries stay away, Huff gets out of his funk, and with a litttle luck, it could be a great season. Go Sioux, or whomever the hell we are now.

Excellent points. The team needs to show up for more than 30 minutes as was the case with Western Illinois when they only played the last 26 minutes. In those last 26 minutes they were very good. Huff will be fine as all players have bad games throughout the year and hopefully during those bad games we have other players to pick up the slack. I did enjoy the fact that even though Huff had a bad shooting night he had a career high in assists. As he develops in this area we are going to be more dangerous cause teams will not collapse on him when he penetrates with 3-4 guys cause once they realize he will make that pass they will stay with their man and open the lanes more for Huff. Working the ball from the inside to the outside is so effective. Lets get on a roll starting with tonight against Jamestown.