Big Sky -- Divisions?

[ShilohSioux]

With 13 teams for football and 11 for basketball (baring any more changes), has there been any talk about dividing into two divisions? I know that was the plan when USD was going to join -- for football at least -- but is that now off the table?

[82SiouxGuy]

With 13 teams for football and 11 for basketball (baring any more changes), has there been any talk about dividing into two divisions? I know that was the plan when USD was going to join -- for football at least -- but is that now off the table?

Nothing has been decided. They had to wait for Montana's decision, and they are probably waiting to see if anything else shakes out with the WAC. You'll have to wait like the rest of us to see how the final set-up looks.

[bincitysioux]

I'm also curious about what they will do with the basketball schedule.........................

Full round-robin 20 game schedule, or some sort of unbalanced schedule?

There are 3 DI leagues playing with 11 this season: The Big 10, Atlantic Sun, and Ohio Valley.

Big 10 Model: 18 conference games, 8 home-and-home, 2 singles

Atlantic Sun Model: Full round-robin 20 game schedule

OVC: Don't know yet..........SIU-Edwarsville isn't playing a conference schedule yet

I kind of like the idea of the unbalanced 18 game schedule. I know there is an argument to be made about not playing everybody the same amount of times when detemining a regular season champion, but it will be done on the football side, it is done in CAA football, and it is done in the WCHA. It'll allow all teams to schedule more regional non-conference games with WAC, MWC, Summit, Pac-12 and Big 10 schools, and limit travel somewhat.

[captsioux]

Here is my view of the possibile divisions

Division A

UND

Montana

Montana St

Idaho St

Eastern Washington

Northern Colorado

Division B

Southern Utah

Northern Arizona

Sacramento St

Portland St

Weber St

UC Davis (FB Only)

Cal Poly(FB Only)

Woould possibile expansion school include:

Utah Valley- Great fit geographicly but would need to add football

San Diego- In WCC but also plays football

OR do they add another fb affiliate?

Any Thoughts?

[The Sicatoka]

Where do Idaho and San Jose State fit in?

[star2city]

Where do Idaho and San Jose State fit in?

Exactly.

Until the future of the WAC is clear, one doesn't know what the Big Sky will look like.

With the Big West likely soon being "full" (12 members), San Jose St wouldn't have a place to go. Idaho's only non-WAC option is the Sky.

Utah Valley is in a tough position - but the Sky doesn't need 3 Utah Schools. Seattle has a lot of merits for membership - even if it doesn't play football.

[darell1976]

Exactly.

Until the future of the WAC is clear, one doesn't know what the Big Sky will look like.

With the Big West likely soon being "full" (12 members), San Jose St wouldn't have a place to go. Idaho's only non-WAC option is the Sky.

Utah Valley is in a tough position - but the Sky doesn't need 3 Utah Schools. Seattle has a lot of merits for membership - even if it doesn't play football.

Just a thought. With Colorado and Nebraska out of the Big 12 would they open up the option to Idaho or Fresno St? I know its a long shot and the geography would be bad, but crazier things has happened.

[star2city]

Just a thought. With Colorado and Nebraska out of the Big 12 would they open up the option to Idaho or Fresno St? I know its a long shot and the geography would be bad, but crazier things has happened.

SJSU and Idaho are not even on the MWC's radar - so they definitely wouldn't be on the Big 12's.

Schools that the Big 12 may be considering are BYU, Boise St, Air Force, and maybe Memphis. TCU didn't get any consideration from the Big 12 because it really doesn't open up another TV market for that conference.

The Big West should be announcing this week if they are adding Hawaii for all sports but football. If that happens, the MWC will take Hawaii for football only. The MWC supposedly is considering going to 12 football schools to have a conference championship game - and would need to add two of the following: Utah St, UTEP, SMU, and Houston. If the MWC takes Utah State, the WAC will be badly crippled - down to only 6 FBS teams even after adding UTSA and TxSt. The MWC has shown no interest in Idaho or SJSU.

[ShilohSioux]

SJSU and Idaho are not even on the MWC's radar - so they definitely wouldn't be on the Big 12's.

Schools that the Big 12 may be considering are BYU, Boise St, Air Force, and maybe Memphis. TCU didn't get any consideration from the Big 12 because it really doesn't open up another TV market for that conference.

The Big West should be announcing this week if they are adding Hawaii for all sports but football. If that happens, the MWC will take Hawaii for football only. The MWC supposedly is considering going to 12 football schools to have a conference championship game - and would need to add two of the following: Utah St, UTEP, SMU, and Houston. If the MWC takes Utah State, the WAC will be badly crippled - down to only 6 FBS teams even after adding UTSA and TxSt. The MWC has shown no interest in Idaho or SJSU.

Right. Idaho is out of options. No one else wants them because their facilities and crowds are I-AA sized. But they are too stubborn to return to the Big Sky, even for non-football sports. They view themselves as the flagship institution in Idaho (and academically they are) but to return to the Sky would give them the appearance of being a lower institution that Boise State, which has very weak academics. To some at Idaho, this is unacceptable, even though they will soon be playing league games in Texas and Louisiana. It would be great if they would get some sense but I don't look for them to be back in the Big Sky in the foreseeable future.

Since the Big Sky will likely get only one berth to the NCAA tournaments, I would support a 20-game league basketball schedule. Determining a true regular season champion is important when you only get one berth....especially if home court is at stake for the post-season conference tournament.

Finally, divisions are going to be tough to create. The one mentioned above will surely be opposed by ISU and WSU, who are nearby rivals and won't want to split.

[star2city]

Right. Idaho is out of options. No one else wants them because their facilities and crowds are I-AA sized. But they are too stubborn to return to the Big Sky, even for non-football sports. They view themselves as the flagship institution in Idaho (and academically they are) but to return to the Sky would give them the appearance of being a lower institution that Boise State, which has very weak academics. To some at Idaho, this is unacceptable, even though they will soon be playing league games in Texas and Louisiana. It would be great if they would get some sense but I don't look for them to be back in the Big Sky in the foreseeable future.

Since the Big Sky will likely get only one berth to the NCAA tournaments, I would support a 20-game league basketball schedule. Determining a true regular season champion is important when you only get one berth....especially if home court is at stake for the post-season conference tournament.

Finally, divisions are going to be tough to create. The one mentioned above will surely be opposed by ISU and WSU, who are nearby rivals and won't want to split.

In many respects, I believe Big Sky Presidents - especially at Montana and UC Davis, but also Sac St and Portland St and even Montana State - know that they are in a position of power. All of them know that the WAC will eventually need them, but none of them want to be in a league dominated by Texas. By saying "no", the Big Sky could eventually force the WAC into a reverse merger (after Hawaii and probably Utah St / La Tech are gone) - whereby the new WAC maintains FBS status, but also sponsors an FCS division. That way, all the Big Sky schools would have the ability to move to FBS on their own timetable - and at the same time not losing regional rivals in other sports when they make that decision.

For example:

WAC/Big Sky FBS Division

San Jose St

Sac St

Portland St

Idaho

Montana

NMex St

UTSA

Tx St

WAC/Big Sky FCS Division

Montana St

N Dakota

N Colorado

N Arizona

Weber St

S Utah

Idaho St

E Wash

Cal Poly

UCDavis

at any time - the FCS schools would have the automatic invitation to move up if they so chose (somewhat like the Big East model).

In basketball, the divisions could be more regional with Denver and Seattle added, but Cal Poly and UCDavis staying in the Big West. The major drawback of this setup is the lack of autobids: but with that many teams, at-large bids are possible (especially if NMex St, Seattle, Portland St, Weber St, and even Montana are together.)

[ShilohSioux]

An interesting concept but Sac State and Portland State are about as far away from FBS as a school can be. Their attendance is among the worst in FCS, and they are in the shadows of Pac-10 FBS teams. Compounding that are serious financial problems for the states of California and Oregon. UND will be ready for FBS before SacState and Portland State are. A more like scenario is for the Big Sky to invite Idaho as a non-football member, bringing the league to 12 for all sports but football. They could do the same with USU and NMSU but NMSU would rather join the Sun Belt than the Big Sky and USU is still hoping for the MWC invite it turned down earlier. San Jose State is struggling to keep football and may be headed to the Big West for non-football sports soon.

In many respects, I believe Big Sky Presidents - especially at Montana and UC Davis, but also Sac St and Portland St and even Montana State - know that they are in a position of power. All of them know that the WAC will eventually need them, but none of them want to be in a league dominated by Texas. By saying "no", the Big Sky could eventually force the WAC into a reverse merger (after Hawaii and probably Utah St / La Tech are gone) - whereby the new WAC maintains FBS status, but also sponsors an FCS division. That way, all the Big Sky schools would have the ability to move to FBS on their own timetable - and at the same time not losing regional rivals in other sports when they make that decision.

For example:

WAC/Big Sky FBS Division

San Jose St

Sac St

Portland St

Idaho

Montana

NMex St

UTSA

Tx St

WAC/Big Sky FCS Division

Montana St

N Dakota

N Colorado

N Arizona

Weber St

S Utah

Idaho St

E Wash

Cal Poly

UCDavis

at any time - the FCS schools would have the automatic invitation to move up if they so chose (somewhat like the Big East model).

In basketball, the divisions could be more regional with Denver and Seattle added, but Cal Poly and UCDavis staying in the Big West. The major drawback of this setup is the lack of autobids: but with that many teams, at-large bids are possible (especially if NMex St, Seattle, Portland St, Weber St, and even Montana are together.)

[star2city]

An interesting concept but Sac State and Portland State are about as far away from FBS as a school can be. Their attendance is among the worst in FCS, and they are in the shadows of Pac-10 FBS teams. Compounding that are serious financial problems for the states of California and Oregon. UND will be ready for FBS before SacState and Portland State are. A more like scenario is for the Big Sky to invite Idaho as a non-football member, bringing the league to 12 for all sports but football. They could do the same with USU and NMSU but NMSU would rather join the Sun Belt than the Big Sky and USU is still hoping for the MWC invite it turned down earlier. San Jose State is struggling to keep football and may be headed to the Big West for non-football sports soon.

FIU and FAU had worse attendance and didn't even have FBS stadiums when they moved to FBS. The problem for Sac St and Portland St is that FCS is viewed as irrelevant minor league stuff in those cities - if they moved to FBS the press and citizens will take them more seriously. There isn't an FCS team in a pro city that draws well (Ga State is in it's first year - so it doesn't count - moreover it wants to move to FBS eventually.) For Sac and Portland to be taken seriously by potential fans, they have to be FBS. Montana and UND don't face that issue. Beyond that, the NCAA never even enforces the attendance rule - NMSU and Idaho should have been forced out long ago.

The Big West may not have room for San Jose St - if they take in Hawaii / UC San Diego / Cal St- Bakersfield. A Big West announcement is supposedly forthcoming - they met yesterday to discuss it.

[ShilohSioux]

FIU and FAU had worse attendance and didn't even have FBS stadiums when they moved to FBS. The problem for Sac St and Portland St is that FCS is viewed as irrelevant minor league stuff in those cities - if they moved to FBS the press and citizens will take them more seriously. There isn't an FCS team in a pro city that draws well (Ga State is in it's first year - so it doesn't count - moreover it wants to move to FBS eventually.) For Sac and Portland to be taken seriously by potential fans, they have to be FBS. Montana and UND don't face that issue. Beyond that, the NCAA never even enforces the attendance rule - NMSU and Idaho should have been forced out long ago.

The Big West may not have room for San Jose St - if they take in Hawaii / UC San Diego / Cal St- Bakersfield. A Big West announcement is supposedly forthcoming - they met yesterday to discuss it.

How's San Jose State doing as an FBS team? Don't see them taken seriously by too many Bay Area sports fans. Sac State and PSU don't have the money or the fan passion to make the upgrade. I could see both dropping football before making the enormous investment to move up to FCS.

Frankly, I see Idaho as the only remaining viable western candidate for the Big Sky. I'm guessing the Big Sky is regretting extending an invite to SUU and wouldn't have if they new USD would back out and that Montana would not move to FBS. That would have left them with 10 for non-football and 12 for football....much more viable.

[dakotadan]

I have seen it stated by a few different sports reporters that CSU Bakersfield is NOT being considered for the Big West. It sounds like Hawaii, DII UC San Diego and San Jose State are the only schools really being discussed for the Big West.

I find it strange that CSU Bakersfield is being completely blackballed like they are as there are 4 CSU schools along with 4 UC schools and then Pacific in the conference. You would think they would be considered at some point, at least slightly. It sounds like they aren't even remotely being discussed. And at what point does the school consider dropping back down to DII?

[star2city]

How's San Jose State doing as an FBS team? Don't see them taken seriously by too many Bay Area sports fans. Sac State and PSU don't have the money or the fan passion to make the upgrade. I could see both dropping football before making the enormous investment to move up to FCS.

Frankly, I see Idaho as the only remaining viable western candidate for the Big Sky. I'm guessing the Big Sky is regretting extending an invite to SUU and wouldn't have if they new USD would back out and that Montana would not move to FBS. That would have left them with 10 for non-football and 12 for football....much more viable.

SJSU actually has had a large number of NFL players - it's program has never been able to get over-the-hump win-wise. If it could be in a league with San Diego State and Fresno St (as it used to be in the WAC and PCAA), it would draw better.

Sacramento's UFL team actually did rather well attracting fans - if Sac State was FBS Sacramento would take the team seriously. San Antonio would never support a UTSA team at the FCS level - so FBS was always the goal there. Sac St should have followed the same pattern - that's the only way they can get corporate sponsorship and season-ticket buy-in.

For many schools, the FBS model is better even with the higher financial outlay because the guarantees are higher and more than one body bag game can be scheduled. Sac State also has the ability to raise student fees without a vote. There is no reason why Sacramento - a city starving for football - wouldn't support Sac State at the FBS level as well as Fresno supports Fresno St. Except for football diehards, Sac fans won't waste their time watching FCS.

As far as the Big Sky and SUU, it was rather clear based on Fullerton's comments about that he expected no teams to leave - which Montana asked him to retract to provide their President some cover - that Montana never intended to move to the WAC. Montana just used the WAC threat as a power play to get schools invited that it always wanted in - UND and USD - and gave in on SUU - which was wanted by NAU and Weber. Adding UND / SUU / and USD was just a convenient political compromise. When Montana adds two more sports that it needs to qualify as an FBS school - that will be the sign that an FBS move is imminent.

[star2city]

I have seen it stated by a few different sports reporters that CSU Bakersfield is NOT being considered for the Big West. It sounds like Hawaii, DII UC San Diego and San Jose State are the only schools really being discussed for the Big West.

I find it strange that CSU Bakersfield is being completely blackballed like they are as there are 4 CSU schools along with 4 UC schools and then Pacific in the conference. You would think they would be considered at some point, at least slightly. It sounds like they aren't even remotely being discussed. And at what point does the school consider dropping back down to DII?

Do you have a link on the Big West not considering Bakersfield?

The only reports that I have seen surfacing about Big West expansion are Hawaii / UC San Diego and CSU-Bakersfield, but not San Jose State:

Long Beach 49er: Big West expansion talks

Granted, SJSU would have reasons to want it's consideration to be confidential.

All the UC schools are rather arrogant about academics (UC Riverside isn't exactly stellar), while Bakersfield is especially looked down as as being lower level of the Cal State system. Almost all the schools turn up their nose as Bakersfield as a city, too: although Bakersfield has a huge amount of money (and oil) in their area. Bakersfield would probably draw better than any school, except Pacific - but then Stockton isn't that much different than Bakersfield. The UC schools probably all want UC-San Diego - which is a research powerhouse.

[dakotadan]

Here is one article from Tuesday from a Long Beach Press-Telegraph sports columnist:

http://www.presstelegram.com/moresports/ci_16803796

Here's an update based on a conversation with a reliable source on the college conference shakedown and how it may impact the Big West:

Hawaii's move to the Big West for all sports except football looks imminent.

UC San Diego is close to making a decision to go Division I. The process thereafter is approval by the NCAA, a conditional period as a Division I independent, and then a conditional period as a conference member, probably of the Big West

...

San Jose State is waiting to see what happens with the WAC before making any moves. And Bakersfield is not an option for Big West expansion.

This doesn't specifically say anything about SJSU as a possability for the Big West.

[ShilohSioux]

Exactly.

Until the future of the WAC is clear, one doesn't know what the Big Sky will look like.

With the Big West likely soon being "full" (12 members), San Jose St wouldn't have a place to go. Idaho's only non-WAC option is the Sky.

Utah Valley is in a tough position - but the Sky doesn't need 3 Utah Schools. Seattle has a lot of merits for membership - even if it doesn't play football.

We can't wait much longer before we'll need to start making the 2012-13 schedules, especially for football. The way I see it, we have two choice IF (big IF) we split into divisions: East/West and North South. I'm guessing we may not split except for football.....the old Big 12, new Big 10 and Pac-12, etc.... aren't splitting for non-football sports. They're playing an unbalanced schedule but one giant league standings -- yuck! Of course, this all changes if we can pick up Idaho and/or Utah State and San Jose State for non-football at least.

East

UND

Montana

Montana State

Northern Colorado

Idaho State

Weber State

West

Cal Poly

UC Davis

Sac State

Portland State

Southern Utah

Northern Arizona

Eastern Washington

======================

North

UND

Montana

Montana State

Eastern Washington

Portland State

Idaho State

Weber State

South

Northern Arizona

Southern Utah

Northern Colorado

Sac State

UC Davis

Cal Poly

[nodakvindy]

I don't believe there will be divisions, because there is no way to split the divisions so you play each opponent in your division and still have all teams play the same number of conference games. Similar problem with basketball - a division split would create conference schedules of 15 and 16 games, vs 20 for a full round robin. No way would mid-majors want to try and schedule that many non-conference games. I think the same would hold for volleyball, however you might see it for some of the smaller sports as a cost containment measure.

[ShilohSioux]

I don't believe there will be divisions, because there is no way to split the divisions so you play each opponent in your division and still have all teams play the same number of conference games. Similar problem with basketball - a division split would create conference schedules of 15 and 16 games, vs 20 for a full round robin. No way would mid-majors want to try and schedule that many non-conference games. I think the same would hold for volleyball, however you might see it for some of the smaller sports as a cost containment measure.

I'd favor a 20 game league schedule where everyone plays everyone else, home and away, but I don't think you'll see that. They'll want to schedule more preseason nonleague games. Big Ten, Big 12 and others only play 18 and Pac 12 says they'll only play some teams once while others twice for a total of 18 starting next year. Too bad.....that's the only way you'll get a fair regular season champion.

[Herd]

For football at the fcs level, championship games are not an option. So divisions make less sense unless you have an autobid into the playoffs for the winner in each division, which is an unlikely guarantee from the ncaa. That's why having more than 9 or 10 teams makes it hard to select a conf champ. That said, a 13-14 team big sky will likely always get 2 or more bids, so a division winner will most likely get in.

[Herd]

UND better make sure they don't end up in a divisional setup with MT, MT St, and EWU. That would be a large playoff hurdle.

[homer]

UND better make sure they don't end up in a divisional setup with MT, MT St, and EWU. That would be a large playoff hurdle.

After the last 4 years I would love to see this. It would be a tough but competition makes a program better and I would love to see the it.

[dakota fairways]

UND better make sure they don't end up in a divisional setup with MT, MT St, and EWU. That would be a large playoff hurdle.

Geographically, there is no divisional alignment that would not put UND in the same division with Montana and Montana State

[ShilohSioux]

Geographically, there is no divisional alignment that would not put UND in the same division with Montana and Montana State

I guess if we go without divisions, there will be years we won't play one of the Montana schools in football as we'll only be able to play 8 or 9 of the other 12 football schools. This could mean some years we play a road game in Montana but none of them at home. That will hurt attendance as I imagine those two teams will be our biggest league draws. Maybe we host NDSU those years?

For other sports, we will likely play only some of the schools twice (unless everyone agrees to a 20 game, double round-robin schedule, which I doubt). We need to get Idaho and Utah State for non-football so we can go to two divisions, or hope one of the non-Montana schools finds another conference so we can have a ten-team conference. A 13 and 11 team conference is awkward.