I'm pretty sure I don't know what I'm talking about here

[Blackheart]

Oh boy....here we go again, I thought that some on here would eventually realize that the nickname issue & retirement has been really a confluence of many things, and issues (1st & foremost the SR Tribal Council) that contributed to it's demise with the Summit & our administration being really not one of the issues. BUT since we need something to blame it seems that the Summit and administrators are the easy targets and so I say commence with it.... as I can see that absolutely no amount of reason will make a difference. So many people here seem to have all these wonderful answers yet when I visit with people in athletics or the foundation I ask if anyone has approached them with these wonderful solutions and they don't seem to exist. If you have the answer march down to the offices and provide, because if it truly can save our name then I am all for it. However I'm not going to blame the conference or administration for the name issue, I guess I just can't be persuaded that its where the blame should lie, and I know that I am in the minority here---but oh well.

I blame the UND leaders for not TRYING to save the name...If all resources were exhausted by all parties and the answer was still 'no', then so be it...that definitely did not happen here...

[Blackheart]

First, his name is Robert O. Kelley.

Next, Tom Clifford actually stated that if he couldn't get the tribal councils to support the name even he'd have to change it.

Folks, the name was dead the minute the settlement agreement called for *both* Sioux tribes in ND having to approve it. The chance of Standing Rock approving it has never been good.

Thanks for correcting my typo...Tom Clifford would have found a way to make this work for both sides; he was a true leader...just my opinion...

[Chewey]

Thanks for correcting my typo...Tom Clifford would have found a way to make this work for both sides; he was a true leader...just my opinion...

Faison and Kelley have been the biggest weenies in the whole show, other than the PC dolts.

[Goon]

Faison and Kelley have been the biggest weenies in the whole show, other than the PC dolts.

The problem is that they were hired to do a job, they have no connection to the Fighting Sioux name or the University of North Dakota other than this is the institution that is sending them a pay check every week. I don't care what they say no matter what empty platitudes they use, the "BRUTAL REALITY" is That UND Fighting Sioux just a name to them because the have nothing invested in it, the probably also see the name FIGHTING SIOUX as an impediment to their cause.

[MplsBison]

The problem is that they were hired to do a job, they have no connection to the Fighting Sioux name or the University of North Dakota other than this is the institution that is sending them a pay check every week. I don't care what they say no matter what empty platitudes they use, the "BRUTAL REALITY" is That UND Fighting Sioux just a name to them because the have nothing invested in it, the probably also see the name FIGHTING SIOUX as an impediment to their cause.

Maybe that's exactly what the people who hired Kelley wanted in the first place: no previous connection to the school. He in turn hired Faison under the same directive.

Sometimes it's good for a business to bring in leadership from the outside, for a fresh perspective.

[82SiouxGuy]

The problem is that they were hired to do a job, they have no connection to the Fighting Sioux name or the University of North Dakota other than this is the institution that is sending them a pay check every week. I don't care what they say no matter what empty platitudes they use, the "BRUTAL REALITY" is That UND Fighting Sioux just a name to them because the have nothing invested in it, the probably also see the name FIGHTING SIOUX as an impediment to their cause.

People from the outside can have a more impartial view. Most people were leading with their hearts on this issue rather than with their heads. My guess is that someone with an impartial view could see that keeping the nickname was a very long shot after the settlement. They could see that the longer the issue was kept alive, the more damage would be done (or the longer lived the damage). And I would guess that Mr. Faison and Mr. Kelley were not willing to risk their jobs and their long term futures on such a long shot. They were hired with specific jobs to do, and specific demands for their performance.

Diehard supporters of the nickname keep saying that they should have just kept it no matter what, or that someone should have done more. Sometimes there is nothing left to do, or at a minimum, sometimes it is time to move on because your chances of winning are so bad. I will ask this question, would you (or any intelligent person) be willing to risk your job and your reputation on an issue when you know that the chances of successfully winning on that issue are very small? Especially when the issue is only a small part of your overall responsibilities? Faced with that option, most people are going to let that issue go unless they have some special reason to support that issue.

[Goon]

People from the outside can have a more impartial view. Most people were leading with their hearts on this issue rather than with their heads. My guess is that someone with an impartial view could see that keeping the nickname was a very long shot after the settlement. They could see that the longer the issue was kept alive, the more damage would be done (or the longer lived the damage). And I would guess that Mr. Faison and Mr. Kelley were not willing to risk their jobs and their long term futures on such a long shot. They were hired with specific jobs to do, and specific demands for their performance.

Diehard supporters of the nickname keep saying that they should have just kept it no matter what, or that someone should have done more. Sometimes there is nothing left to do, or at a minimum, sometimes it is time to move on because your chances of winning are so bad. I will ask this question, would you (or any intelligent person) be willing to risk your job and your reputation on an issue when you know that the chances of successfully winning on that issue are very small? Especially when the issue is only a small part of your overall responsibilities? Faced with that option, most people are going to let that issue go unless they have some special reason to support that issue.

There is a thing called principles and not succumbing to the Political Correctness cabal. There are many of us that think standing on principles is more important than giving in to a shake down. This is why I would rather see a ND person in charge of UND than someone that has no emotional connection to the University than a pay check. Let me just say that I am less than impressed with President Kelly to this date. In my opinion I haven't seen enough of Faison to make a judgment. My first impression of him is he is a numbers guy X,O's and really has no emotional connection to the name and doesn't get the tradition of the Fighting Sioux name.

[Goon]

Maybe that's exactly what the people who hired Kelley wanted in the first place: no previous connection to the school. He in turn hired Faison under the same directive.

Sometimes it's good for a business to bring in leadership from the outside, for a fresh perspective.

Run along skippy we have determined you're nothing more than a sockpuppet that is here to troll and get reactions out of people.

[82SiouxGuy]

There is a thing called principles and not succumbing to the Political Correctness cabal. There are many of us that think standing on principles is more important than giving in to a shake down. This is why I would rather see a ND person in charge of UND than someone that has no emotional connection to the University than a pay check. Let me just say that I am less than impressed with President Kelly to this date. In my opinion I haven't seen enough of Faison to make a judgment. My first impression of him is he is a numbers guy X,O's and really has no emotional connection to the name and doesn't get the tradition of the Fighting Sioux name.

So your position is that they should have gone down with the ship supporting the name. They should have supported it to the bitter end no matter the odds. They should have risked their jobs to support the Fighting Sioux nickname no matter what the eventual outcome was going to be. Does that sum up your position? Is that what you mean by principles?

I can assure you that not all North Dakota natives or even all UND alums would have followed the path that you have supported (this is coming from someone whose family has been in North Dakota for well over 100 years, who has been a Fighting Sioux fan probably longer than you have been alive, an alum with many others alums in the family, and someone that really hates losing the nickname and logo). There comes a time when you cut your losses and move on. No matter what you and many others think, the nickname is a small part of the entire University of North Dakota or even of the UND Athletic Department. It is a great nickname, one of the best I have ever heard. And the logo is wonderful. But they aren't worth what you are asking for from Mr. Faison or Mr. Kelley. Risking everything to support the nickname when the odds are so great against it would have been foolhardy for the administration and for the University. And I know that you don't agree with me so you don't have to tell me that you think I'm wrong.

[Stromer]

So your position is that they should have gone down with the ship supporting the name. They should have supported it to the bitter end no matter the odds. They should have risked their jobs to support the Fighting Sioux nickname no matter what the eventual outcome was going to be. Does that sum up your position? Is that what you mean by principles?

I can assure you that not all North Dakota natives or even all UND alums would have followed the path that you have supported (this is coming from someone whose family has been in North Dakota for well over 100 years, who has been a Fighting Sioux fan probably longer than you have been alive, an alum with many others alums in the family, and someone that really hates losing the nickname and logo). There comes a time when you cut your losses and move on. No matter what you and many others think, the nickname is a small part of the entire University of North Dakota or even of the UND Athletic Department. It is a great nickname, one of the best I have ever heard. And the logo is wonderful. But they aren't worth what you are asking for from Mr. Faison or Mr. Kelley. Risking everything to support the nickname when the odds are so great against it would have been foolhardy for the administration and for the University. And I know that you don't agree with me so you don't have to tell me that you think I'm wrong.

Right on. At some point in time it becomes a numbers game. And thats why its a good thing they turned to someone with no previous connection to the university. As Goon and others show, its hard for some poeple to play the numbers game when they have an emotional attachment.

[Goon]

So your position is that they should have gone down with the ship supporting the name. They should have supported it to the bitter end no matter the odds. They should have risked their jobs to support the Fighting Sioux nickname no matter what the eventual outcome was going to be. Does that sum up your position? Is that what you mean by principles?

I can assure you that not all North Dakota natives or even all UND alums would have followed the path that you have supported (this is coming from someone whose family has been in North Dakota for well over 100 years, who has been a Fighting Sioux fan probably longer than you have been alive, an alum with many others alums in the family, and someone that really hates losing the nickname and logo). There comes a time when you cut your losses and move on. No matter what you and many others think, the nickname is a small part of the entire University of North Dakota or even of the UND Athletic Department. It is a great nickname, one of the best I have ever heard. And the logo is wonderful. But they aren't worth what you are asking for from Mr. Faison or Mr. Kelley. Risking everything to support the nickname when the odds are so great against it would have been foolhardy for the administration and for the University. And I know that you don't agree with me so you don't have to tell me that you think I'm wrong.

Well I guess that solves it then.

[SooToo]

So your position is that they should have gone down with the ship supporting the name. They should have supported it to the bitter end no matter the odds. They should have risked their jobs to support the Fighting Sioux nickname no matter what the eventual outcome was going to be. Does that sum up your position? Is that what you mean by principles?

I can assure you that not all North Dakota natives or even all UND alums would have followed the path that you have supported (this is coming from someone whose family has been in North Dakota for well over 100 years, who has been a Fighting Sioux fan probably longer than you have been alive, an alum with many others alums in the family, and someone that really hates losing the nickname and logo). There comes a time when you cut your losses and move on. No matter what you and many others think, the nickname is a small part of the entire University of North Dakota or even of the UND Athletic Department. It is a great nickname, one of the best I have ever heard. And the logo is wonderful. But they aren't worth what you are asking for from Mr. Faison or Mr. Kelley. Risking everything to support the nickname when the odds are so great against it would have been foolhardy for the administration and for the University. And I know that you don't agree with me so you don't have to tell me that you think I'm wrong.

Amen. I believe the large majority of UND alums sees the situation as you do and has lost interest in continuing this endless debate.

[Goon]

Right on. At some point in time it becomes a numbers game. And thats why its a good thing they turned to someone with no previous connection to the university. As Goon and others show, its hard for some poeple to play the numbers game when they have an emotional attachment.

This is how we are going to end up with some really stupid replacement name because of apathy.

[Goon]

Amen. I believe the large majority of UND alums sees the situation as you do and has lost interest in continuing this endless debate.

Really! I would be interested in seeing the statistics that support this theory. Especially after seeing the picture of thousands of Sioux fans standing out side the REA in a pro name rally. So yeah I would question whether there is a statistical majority, I doubt it's that large a number of UND alums.

[Shawn-O]

Really! I would be interested in seeing the statistics that support this theory. Especially after seeing the picture of thousands of Sioux fans standing out side the REA in a pro name rally. So yeah I would question whether there is a statistical majority, I doubt it's that large a number of UND alums.

I can only speak for my little circle but I'd say it's about 75%-25% in favor of moving on.

[82SiouxGuy]

I can only speak for my little circle but I'd say it's about 75%-25% in favor of moving on.

As far as I know there hasn't been any polling done on the subject. But it wouldn't surprise me if that was in the right ballpark.

And that's for UND alums. If you polled other North Dakota residents it would probably be a larger majority. Face it, this isn't a big issue for most residents of the state. The vast majority of the people in North Dakota probably think Fighting Sioux is a good nickname and that UND has used it well. But the number of people that are willing to trash everything to keep it, that believes UND should keep fighting forever, is a minority of the population. If Mr. Fool Bear has some magic trick up his sleeve that will change minds on the tribal council I wish he would play it. Otherwise it is time to move on.

[Goon]

As far as I know there hasn't been any polling done on the subject. But it wouldn't surprise me if that was in the right ballpark.

And that's for UND alums. If you polled other North Dakota residents it would probably be a larger majority. Face it, this isn't a big issue for most residents of the state. The vast majority of the people in North Dakota probably think Fighting Sioux is a good nickname and that UND has used it well. But the number of people that are willing to trash everything to keep it, that believes UND should keep fighting forever, is a minority of the population. If Mr. Fool Bear has some magic trick up his sleeve that will change minds on the tribal council I wish he would play it. Otherwise it is time to move on.

I just got an email that said that Archie and his group have hired an attorney so they are not done fighting.

[fightingsioux4life]

There is a thing called principles and not succumbing to the Political Correctness cabal. There are many of us that think standing on principles is more important than giving in to a shake down. This is why I would rather see a ND person in charge of UND than someone that has no emotional connection to the University than a pay check. Let me just say that I am less than impressed with President Kelly to this date. In my opinion I haven't seen enough of Faison to make a judgment. My first impression of him is he is a numbers guy X,O's and really has no emotional connection to the name and doesn't get the tradition of the Fighting Sioux name.

I understand your feelings on this issue; I share them. But the President works for the ND SBoHE and the A.D. works for the President. Getting themselves fired by standing up to the Board would not have saved the nickname and logo. All they would have accomplished was losing their jobs and throwing the campus into chaos. There are major challenges in Higher Ed right now and UND needs a solid team of leaders to tackle them. I think President Kelley and Faison are doing the best they can with multiple challenges on multiple fronts and I think this move up to Division I in all sports will turn out good in the long run.

[82SiouxGuy]

I just got an email that said that Archie and his group have hired an attorney so they are not done fighting.

I admire their efforts and wish them all the luck in the world. But I'm not going to hold my breath because it would be a huge surprise if they are successful. Fighting and winning are two very different things and they haven't had much luck on the winning side lately.

[Shawn-O]

I admire their efforts and wish them all the luck in the world. But I'm not going to hold my breath because it would be a huge surprise if they are successful. Fighting and winning are two very different things and they haven't had much luck on the winning side lately.

I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure interested in what their approach might be. I can't picture any more than a referendum and a symbolic victory at this point. I could be wrong.

[Blackheart]

I admire their efforts and wish them all the luck in the world. But I'm not going to hold my breath because it would be a huge surprise if they are successful. Fighting and winning are two very different things and they haven't had much luck on the winning side lately.

True, but at least they are trying...

[sprig]

Sounds like we need a ss.com poll to see if it's 75-25 here.

[MplsBison]

So your position is that they should have gone down with the ship supporting the name. They should have supported it to the bitter end no matter the odds. They should have risked their jobs to support the Fighting Sioux nickname no matter what the eventual outcome was going to be. Does that sum up your position? Is that what you mean by principles?

I can assure you that not all North Dakota natives or even all UND alums would have followed the path that you have supported (this is coming from someone whose family has been in North Dakota for well over 100 years, who has been a Fighting Sioux fan probably longer than you have been alive, an alum with many others alums in the family, and someone that really hates losing the nickname and logo). There comes a time when you cut your losses and move on. No matter what you and many others think, the nickname is a small part of the entire University of North Dakota or even of the UND Athletic Department. It is a great nickname, one of the best I have ever heard. And the logo is wonderful. But they aren't worth what you are asking for from Mr. Faison or Mr. Kelley. Risking everything to support the nickname when the odds are so great against it would have been foolhardy for the administration and for the University. And I know that you don't agree with me so you don't have to tell me that you think I'm wrong.

Very well said!

You're wasting your time trying to convince people like Goon. He would sacrifice his neighbor, his brother-in-law, his favorite hunting dog...whatever it would take to keep a nickname to a college sports team and expects nothing less of anyone.

That type of emotional attachment (obsession?) is impossible to convince otherwise using logic.

[Goon]

Very well said!

You're wasting your time trying to convince people like Goon. He would sacrifice his neighbor, his brother-in-law, his favorite hunting dog...whatever it would take to keep a nickname to a college sports team and expects nothing less of anyone.

That type of emotional attachment (obsession?) is impossible to convince otherwise using logic.

Come-on Sockpuppet. That has to be one of the stupidest things you have posted on this forum. if not it at least cracks the top ten.

[Goon]

Sounds like we need a ss.com poll to see if it's 75-25 here.

We might have to have a poll Sprig.