Discussion on GWFC

[Woden]

Let me make two points before I start:

1. I am not trying to start a SU/UND debate here, so let's try to stay away from that.

2. Congrats to our team for yesterday's win. Regardless of what is said below, that was a great one.

With the victory yesterday, I couldn't help but wonder if the GWFC is everything we and that school down south made it seem to be the last few years? I mean, this was supposed to be THE team. Possibly the best to come into the Alerus ever (someone tell GVSU and O'Sullivan's UC-Davis team that). King of the GWFC. UND's squad on the other hand is young, inexperienced, some would say poorly coached, and having by most people's thoughts a horrible season. Surely this was a cupcake game for our brethren from the west.

But wait...UND won? How could this be? Isn't this the same team that lost to USF (no hate USF fans)? And that loss wasn't by some miracle play. USF had soundly whooped our butts up and down the field. Surely this had to be a mistake. No way in hell a FCS powerhouse wouldn't stomp our butts up and down the field. I mean, we had heard for years how different the talent was from our red-headed sister to the south. But I wasn't imagining the win, and it wasn't a mistake. Much like USF handling us all day, we took it to Cal-Poly.

So what's the deal? How could a team greater than the '85 Bears come into the Alerus and lose to a team that is arguably one of the least talented teams the Sioux have suited up in years? To me the answer is simple. Besides for a few teams, FCS and especially the GWFC aren't all we were told they were going to be. Yes there are some very talented teams out there, but looking at the division as a whole, it is mediocre at best.

Then there is the whole NDSU transition. Ranked #1 for a few weeks before losing their final game. Stomping teams up and down the field. Moving up to play FBS schools and having no problems taking care of business. Now the are struggling to win maybe 4 games. What's the deal here? Two things: 1) the MVFC is top to bottom a much better conference; and 2)Bohl hasn't been held accountable for the discipline/recruiting at SU. So what can we learn here at UND about this?

First is that in order to be successful against teams such as those in the MVFC, we must greatly increase our talent level. I'm not a fan of watching this UND struggle the way it has due to being so young, but I also think we are primed to peak at the right time. Bohl peaked early with SU because he wanted a quick turnaround and was left with a very talented roster (regardless of Babich as a coach, the man could recruit). He essentially lived off of Babich's recruits. Roehl, Walker, Safe, Mayes, Dahl, etc...were all recruited in by Babich. When they left, what did the team have? Regardless of the local media's love for Bohl (a different topic all together), he was not bringing in the talent like they were reporting. So what does this tell UND? We need to keep scrutinizing the talent brought in by our coaches. Part of this includes getting over the notion that local boys can't make it anymore. One need only to look at SDSU to realize we don't need to go to Compton to find talent to play here. The local farmboys seem to be doing just fine at SDSU. So did our squad that went into UNI and took it to 'em. Also, getting young talent in and grooming them for the right time is much better than peaking during the transition.

The discipline problem at SU is becoming in my opinion their biggest concern. From those that I knew that played there, things became much different when Babich left and Bohl took over. Lack of accountability and sportmanship, which were fine when the team had enough talent to overcome virtually any obstacle, now make winning nearly impossible. I can also tell you from a personal source that a very high-profile defense attorney in Fargo receives more than his fair share of phone calls from coach Bohl. Most of which never reach the media. This attorney told me it reminded him of "the Rocky days."

Once again, what should UND learn from this? Although easier said than done, discipline must remain first and foremost in the minds of our coaches, and us as fans must demand it. Certainly with a young team there are bound to be some mental lapses and bad judgment throughout the game, but if we continue to see the same problems over and over again throughout this season and next, then we could conclude that the discipline instilled by Coach Lennon is no longer there.

One more thought on the UND team. Defense. We need to solve this problem now before it becomes bigger and even more of a burden. Obviously the Co-defensive coordinator idea isn't working. One lacks enough knowledge of the 3-4, and the other doesn't know DB play well enough. This is no longer the aggressive, swarming, dictating defenses of Schweigert/Tibesar. We either need to get someone that knows this type of defense, or switch to a 4-3 and continue the style we do.

I think that's enough for now. Discuss?

[star2city]

With the victory yesterday, I couldn't help but wonder if the GWFC is everything we and that school down south made it seem to be the last few years? I mean, this was supposed to be THE team. Possibly the best to come into the Alerus ever (someone tell GVSU and O'Sullivan's UC-Davis team that). King of the GWFC. UND's squad on the other hand is young, inexperienced, some would say poorly coached, and having by most people's thoughts a horrible season. Surely this was a cupcake game for our brethren from the west.

Cal Poly is not the team it was last year. First, they have a new QB who isn't as talented, especially throwing. UND was able to stop the Cal Poly running game because Cal Poly didn't have a passing game. Cal Poly also had a banged up OL. UND strengths matched up very well with Cal Poly.

Cal Poly hasn't proven it can win on the road yet (lost to FBS Ohio by 18, FBS San Jose St by 10, and lost to Montana by two points). But Cal Poly is the only team to beat SDSU. USF > UND > Cal Poly > SDSU, is USF the best team in SD?

So what's the deal? How could a team greater than the '85 Bears come into the Alerus and lose to a team that is arguably one of the least talented teams the Sioux have suited up in years? To me the answer is simple. Besides for a few teams, FCS and especially the GWFC aren't all we were told they were going to be. Yes there are some very talented teams out there, but looking at the division as a whole, it is mediocre at best.

Cal Poly, UC Davis, and SUU would all be in the upper tier of the Big Sky and Missouri Valley. Because of the lack of FCS teams in the west, all three have been forced to play two FBS schools on the road. None of them got wiped out: UC Davis was in it's game against Boise St until late.

With the FBS games, effectively, Cal Poly, UC Davis, and SUU start off with two losses (unlike one in the MVFC or the Big Sky) and are eliminated from the playoffs with one more loss. If those three teams could feast on Idaho St, Northern Colorado, Sac St, and Portland St like Montana does or W Ill, Ind St, Ill St and NDSU like SIU and UNI do, the three Great West teams would all be competitive for FCS playoffs.

What's the deal here? Two things: 1) the MVFC is top to bottom a much better conference; and 2)Bohl hasn't been held accountable for the discipline/recruiting at SU. So what can we learn here at UND about this?

#2

So what does this tell UND? We need to keep scrutinizing the talent brought in by our coaches. Part of this includes getting over the notion that local boys can't make it anymore. One need only to look at SDSU to realize we don't need to go to Compton to find talent to play here. The local farmboys seem to be doing just fine at SDSU. So did our squad that went into UNI and took it to 'em. Also, getting young talent in and grooming them for the right time is much better than peaking during the transition.

Don't agree at all. SDSU recruits California, Arizona, and Texas heavily. The Upper Midwest is wonderful for recruiting OL, TE, QB, and sometime LB. Not so much for WR, secondary, and DL.

Compared to 20 years ago, the number of farmboys from ND has dropped by 60 to 70%. There just aren't any kids in the countryside anymore.

The discipline problem at SU is becoming in my opinion their biggest concern. From those that I knew that played there, things became much different when Babich left and Bohl took over. Lack of accountability and sportmanship, which were fine when the team had enough talent to overcome virtually any obstacle, now make winning nearly impossible. I can also tell you from a personal source that a very high-profile defense attorney in Fargo receives more than his fair share of phone calls from coach Bohl. Most of which never reach the media. This attorney told me it reminded him of "the Rocky days."

No surprise there. With Bohl's own questionable morals, how could he teach any morality to his players? No one's perfect, but Mussman is capable of being as much of a role model as Lennon was.

NDSU fans and teammakers really believed that Bohl was the total package: Bohl's character issues weren't relevant after the 10-1 seasons he delivered them. Now they are paying for their own blindness: stuck with paying a long-term contract if they ever want to right the ship. Character does matter in the long term: always has and always will. It's like a whole another Presidential house cost overrun to correct the problem. Otherwise, they just have to wait a few years and rebuild with a new coach later. Why would recruits want to step into those situations, where they get dragged down morally too? Unfortunately for those recruits, the "freedom" they observe by NDSU players on recruiting trips is like a Venus fly trap.

Once again, what should UND learn from this? Although easier said than done, discipline must remain first and foremost in the minds of our coaches, and us as fans must demand it. Certainly with a young team there are bound to be some mental lapses and bad judgment throughout the game, but if we continue to see the same problems over and over again throughout this season and next, then we could conclude that the discipline instilled by Coach Lennon is no longer there.

The Kelly and Stroup LB situations showed that Mussman wasn't going to put up with crap. And this with LB depth and skill needing all the help it could get.

If Mohler or Washington had been under Mussman, would they even be on the team? Doubtful.

One more thought on the UND team. Defense. We need to solve this problem now before it becomes bigger and even more of a burden. Obviously the Co-defensive coordinator idea isn't working. One lacks enough knowledge of the 3-4, and the other doesn't know DB play well enough. This is no longer the aggressive, swarming, dictating defenses of Schweigert/Tibesar. We either need to get someone that knows this type of defense, or switch to a 4-3 and continue the style we do.

The Cal Poly games shows the 3-4 can still work. Just need the execution, coaching, and skills to match up against a passing team.

[Woden]

Great Post. A few things:

Don't agree at all. SDSU recruits California, Arizona, and Texas heavily. The Upper Midwest is wonderful for recruiting OL, TE, QB, and sometime LB. Not so much for WR, secondary, and DL.

Compared to 20 years ago, the number of farmboys from ND has dropped by 60 to 70%. There just aren't any kids in the countryside anymore.

I said that a little tongue-in-cheek. My point is the base can come from this area. For some of the skill positions yes we must look to other sources in order to keep the talent level high. I just don't like the attitude of ND/MN/WI/Canada players don't cut it anymore.

Weston>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Shamen.

The Cal Poly games shows the 3-4 can still work. Just need the execution, coaching, and skills to match up against a passing team.

I am not advocating getting rid of the 3-4, unless we continue with the same approach we have. We need a new coach that has experience with the 3-4 and can bring back the aggressive, dictating style that the 3-4 entails. Right now we have a coach that doesn't really know the 3-4, and a coach that only knows what he was taught here. We need fresh blood.

[UND92,96]

I am not advocating getting rid of the 3-4, unless we continue with the same approach we have. We need a new coach that has experience with the 3-4 and can bring back the aggressive, dictating style that the 3-4 entails. Right now we have a coach that doesn't really know the 3-4, and a coach that only knows what he was taught here. We need fresh blood.

I'm not going to go so far as to say what Mussman should or should not do, but hypothetically speaking, if he did decide to go in a different direction at d-coordinator, the two people I'd like to see him call are, in no particular order, Tim Tibesar and Eric Schmidt. For Schmidt, it would be a promotion, and I have to think he'd be open to it. The fact that Lennon brought him along to SIU tells me all I need to know about his potential as a coach. As for Tibesar, I have no idea what a CFL position coach makes, but I doubt it would be all that much of a pay cut to come back here (could be wrong, though).

[UND1983]

One more thought on the UND team. Defense. We need to solve this problem now before it becomes bigger and even more of a burden. Obviously the Co-defensive coordinator idea isn't working. One lacks enough knowledge of the 3-4, and the other doesn't know DB play well enough. This is no longer the aggressive, swarming, dictating defenses of Schweigert/Tibesar. We either need to get someone that knows this type of defense, or switch to a 4-3 and continue the style we do.

I think that's enough for now. Discuss?

One of them knows the 3-4 very well and one doesn't. Not to hard to figure out which one is which.

[82SiouxGuy]

I'm not going to go so far as to say what Mussman should or should not do, but hypothetically speaking, if he did decide to go in a different direction at d-coordinator, the two people I'd like to see him call are, in no particular order, Tim Tibesar and Eric Schmidt. For Schmidt, it would be a promotion, and I have to think he'd be open to it. The fact that Lennon brought him along to SIU tells me all I need to know about his potential as a coach. As for Tibesar, I have no idea what a CFL position coach makes, but I doubt it would be all that much of a pay cut to come back here (could be wrong, though).

I think it would be a fair sized cut to a coordinator job at FCS. Plus their off season is pretty quiet, especially compared to the NFL or recruiting for college. So it may be a tough sell to get Tibesar back unless he saw it as a way to get back on the fast track. A head coaching position at FCS (or maybe even at DII) is a different story. That would be a chance to be the head guy and would probably be worth taking a cut.

[bincitysioux]

Although I've been one of the more vocal ones regarding my displeasure with the "Co-coordinator" set up (not just this year, since it started), I haven't really advocated axing the both of them, rather I'd just like a decision to be made so that one guy is running this defense. Having said that, if neither of them were deemed to be "the guy", what about Josh Kotelnicki? He's done a good job with special teams both here and at Kansas St., and has experience as a defensive coordinator.

[UND92,96]

Although I've been one of the more vocal ones regarding my displeasure with the "Co-coordinator" set up (not just this year, since it started), I haven't really advocated axing the both of them, rather I'd just like a decision to be made so that one guy is running this defense. Having said that, if neither of them were deemed to be "the guy", what about Josh Kotelnicki? He's done a good job with special teams both here and at Kansas St., and has experience as a defensive coordinator.

A case certainly could be made that of all the defensive coaches on the staff right now, Kotelnicki may actually have the best credentials, particularly in terms of what he did before joining the staff here. He has previous dI experience AND coordinator experience from a major dII conference. Nothing against Mannausau or Kelling, but to the best of my knowledge Kelling was always a position coach (and I believe primarily on offense) at Augie, and Mannausau's non-UND experience is all at the high school level.

[Woden]

One of them knows the 3-4 very well and one doesn't. Not to hard to figure out which one is which.

I wasn't really trying to be sneaky.

A case certainly could be made that of all the defensive coaches on the staff right now, Kotelnicki may actually have the best credentials, particularly in terms of what he did before joining the staff here. He has previous dI experience AND coordinator experience from a major dII conference. Nothing against Mannausau or Kelling, but to the best of my knowledge Kelling was always a position coach (and I believe primarily on offense) at Augie, and Mannausau's non-UND experience is all at the high school level.

From my own experience, I can say Kotelnicki is the most well-versed and most knowledgeable 3-4 coach we have on the team right now. As mentioned above, Schmidt would also be a good choice.

The truth, no matter how much it hurts, is that Lennon took the coaches he trusted and knew would get the job done. There were reasons he didn't bring some of his staff with.

[SooToo]

I wasn't really trying to be sneaky.

From my own experience, I can say Kotelnicki is the most well-versed and most knowledgeable 3-4 coach we have on the team right now. As mentioned above, Schmidt would also be a good choice.

The truth, no matter how much it hurts, is that Lennon took the coaches he trusted and knew would get the job done. There were reasons he didn't bring some of his staff with.

And it probably should be noted, for anyone who wasn't aware, that Mussman reportedly was asked to go with Lennon to be O-coordinator at SIU but opted for the head coaching job at UND.

[VMeister]

From my own experience, I can say Kotelnicki is the most well-versed and most knowledgeable 3-4 coach we have on the team right now. As mentioned above, Schmidt would also be a good choice.

I hope that Muss is the answer at Head Coach for the next 10 years. Although I'm starting to feel bi-polar watching this team. At least this is one of the good weeks!

That said, here's my list of people to someday move back to Grand Forks:

- Tim Tibesar

- Eric "the Beerman" Schmidt

- Brooks Bollinger

[Answer Guy's choice - Casey Bradley]

[WYOBISONMAN]

The bottom line.......right now there is for sure no reason in the world NDSU would want to play UND....If we played our typical quality of game this year and UND had a game like they had against Poly.....we would get our ass handed to us.

[Woden]

And it probably should be noted, for anyone who wasn't aware, that Mussman reportedly was asked to go with Lennon to be O-coordinator at SIU but opted for the head coaching job at UND.

Yeah.

Good job of pointing that out.

[Woden]

The bottom line.......right now there is for sure no reason in the world NDSU would want to play UND....If we played our typical quality of game this year and UND had a game like they had against Poly.....we would get our ass handed to us.

I think it would be like the South Park episode where both little league teams are trying to lose. Both teams would do their best to try and walk off the field the loser.

[RD17]

Although I've been one of the more vocal ones regarding my displeasure with the "Co-coordinator" set up (not just this year, since it started), I haven't really advocated axing the both of them, rather I'd just like a decision to be made so that one guy is running this defense. Having said that, if neither of them were deemed to be "the guy", what about Josh Kotelnicki? He's done a good job with special teams both here and at Kansas St., and has experience as a defensive coordinator.

Kotelnicki ran the "UND 3-4" for one season at Truman State and they gave up 284 points. The season before he was there they gave up 413 and the season after he left, 408. Draw your own conclusions from there.

[RD17]

Don't agree at all. SDSU recruits California, Arizona, and Texas heavily. The Upper Midwest is wonderful for recruiting OL, TE, QB, and sometime LB. Not so much for WR, secondary, and DL.

Compared to 20 years ago, the number of farmboys from ND has dropped by 60 to 70%. There just aren't any kids in the countryside anymore.

Barry Alvarez said something to this effect when he took the Wisconsin job: "Our heart and soul will come from around here, but our hands and feet will have to come from somewhere else."

Of course FBS recruiting is a whole different animal than what UND is doing, but I believe the saying at least partially applies to UND's situation as well. Of course people will point to Dressler and some of the running backs UND has had as evidence that local kids can do just fine, and it's certainly true that there are athletes good enough to do the job within the region.

But to be a consistently good FCS program, we will need more depth and that will necessitate going outside of this area in recruiting, especially the skill position type kids. I'm glad to see UND's staff recruiting in Texas and California and bringing in a couple of Florida kids last year. Establishing a "pipeline" outside the area is going to be crucial to long term success.

The good news is it is good to be in an area where linemen are easier to come by than skill players rather than vice versa. Ask any college coach and they will tell you that is true.

[Woden]

Kotelnicki ran the "UND 3-4" for one season at Truman State and they gave up 284 points. The season before he was there they gave up 413 and the season after he left, 408. Draw your own conclusions from there.

Thanks for that stat.

Didn't know that.

I can tell you that Kotelnicki ran the Tibesar style 3-4 as well, not the style we see today. In fact, Truman State upset Winona that year essentially running "Dart" the whole game. Not sure if that is even in the playbook anymore. I know HBC, Under 4, Rocket, Falcon, and other defenses have disappeared.

[Rick]

Barry Alvarez said something to this effect when he took the Wisconsin job: "Our heart and soul will come from around here, but our hands and feet will have to come from somewhere else."

Lou Holtz said the same thing when he took over the Gophers except he said "our heart and soul will come from Minnesota but our legs will have to come from somewhere else."