Should UND go away from the 3-4?

[bincitysioux]

I know, I know..........wikipedia is a terrible source for info but how about this statement?

Strengths of the 3-4 include speedy ILBs and OLBs in pursuit of backs in run defense and flexibility to use multiple rushers to confuse the quarterback during passing plays without being forced into man-to-man defense on receivers. The 3-4 linebackers must be very athletic and strong enough to shed blocks by fullbacks, tight ends, and offensive linemen to get to the running back. In most cases, 3-4 OLBs lead their teams in quarterback sacks.

Are our linebackers athletic enough to shoulder the load in DI? They weren't effective enough yesterday to shoulder the load against an NAIA team. Kasowski got a "coverage" sack yesterday, just the second one for the entire team all year. I'm not a great recruiting mind, so I don't know how good the young guys coming up are supposed to be, but I can tell you that on the current defense there are no Digger Anderson, Tim Tibesar, or even Dan Ullsperger type players.

The 3-4 was put in to stop the veer offense. How many veer offenses do you see in DI? Cal Poly runs the triple-option, I don't know if that is similar or not. SUU and Davis like to chuck it around. SFA spread it out and tore us up. USD and USF both had quarterbacks that can run, we contained Shephard, but USF's Brown destroyed us with his arm & his legs.

Just something to ponder, because what we are doing isn't working.

[UND92,96]

Good question. While our linebacking talent certainly isn't great right now, I question whether it's being utilized correctly. The 3-4 is clearly still working for Bubba at SIU right now. Heck, it's apparently even working better for Sioux Falls than it is here, and I doubt their overall talent level is any better than UND's.

I'm afraid the problem is that few programs were using it, so when our d-coordinators have left, we've almost been forced to promote from within. Sometimes it has worked. Unfortunately, sometimes it hasn't.

I hope Mussman consults with Lennon and Bubba after the season. I'm sure they could give an honest assessment of the state of our defense, and who may be out there who could improve it. Frankly, although I'm very unhappy with our defense, if the two coaches who built this system say that the coaching isn't the problem, I'll believe them.

[coachdags]

Last week we do not win the Game without the play of our defense...? 2 interceptions the set up TD's and several big play stops and turnovers. Our Goal line defense as a attitude as good as I have seen in a while. I think when we get some kids healthy we will be fine.

As far as Dale, I wish he could have made a decision and not have Co-Coordinators, I have never like that. Dale started it and Mussman is somewhat stuck with it. I would prefer I guy as Defensive Coordinator. By the way Dale has Co-Offensive coordinators at Southern Illinois, which I do not like either...

[Csonked Out]

Last week we do not win the Game without the play of our defense...? 2 interceptions the set up TD's and several big play stops and turnovers. Our Goal line defense as a attitude as good as I have seen in a while. I think when we get some kids healthy we will be fine.

As far as Dale, I wish he could have made a decision and not have Co-Coordinators, I have never like that. Dale started it and Mussman is somewhat stuck with it. I would prefer I guy as Defensive Coordinator. By the way Dale has Co-Offensive coordinators at Southern Illinois, which I do not like either...

Our problem revolves around pressure to the quarterback and unfortunately it is in a lose lose situation at the moment. The LB's have shown that they don't have the ability to pressure the quarterback on a consisten basis, but unfortunately the team isn't very good at DE as well. Far to often yesterday we were blitzing and never getting to the quarterback, and that is trouble for any defense. I would be for switching to a 4-3 defense, but it will take a couple of years to get the talent needed to have a successful switch.

I feel more of the main question should be, do we have capable defense coordinators running the show right now, or should we be looking for a replacement after the season? I know this won't be a popular question and I will probably get my butt chewed for asking it, but the defense as significantly fallen the last 2 years and its not just because of the going to D1. An NAIA school basically owned us yesterday on offense, now I realize they are a very good NAIA school, but our defense didn't even compete.

IMHO we should look at a defensive coaching change instead of a defense scheme change.

[Irish]

It's pretty clear we don't have the personnel to successfully run the 3-4. Our linemen get no push, not even against an NAIA school and our linebackers aren't athletic enough. However, I don't know if we have the personnel to successfully run any other defense either. What we need and don't have is the ability to make adjustments during the game. I can't think of another game where I felt we were so outcoached as yesterday. We had absolutely no answer to a couple of their formations and plays, especially when they split 3 out on the same side. Everyone in the stands could see the trouble with that formation - we simply didn't have enough defenders in the area to cover. Even after half-time, we had no answer. When a defense at the University of North Dakota gets positively owned by and NAIA school something needs to change and soon.

[mksioux]

As far as Dale, I wish he could have made a decision and not have Co-Coordinators, I have never like that. Dale started it and Mussman is somewhat stuck with it. I would prefer I guy as Defensive Coordinator. By the way Dale has Co-Offensive coordinators at Southern Illinois, which I do not like either...

Mussman is not stuck with anything. He is the HEAD COACH for crying out loud. If he didn't want co-defensive coordinators, there wouldn't be co-defensive coordinators.

[moser53]

It was what a month ago when the Northeastern State coach was praising our defensive scheme.

The 3-4 has been good to UND and we should stick with it. Good players make coaches look smart.

[dlsiouxfan]

UND should fire both Mannaussau and Kelling and then bring in a new defensive coordinator who can run the system of his choosing whether it is a 3-4 or a 4-3. The personnell we have currently is a non-factor as I expect true freshmen and redshirt freshmen playing at most positions next year since the talent level of a lot of our upper classmen isn't even close to the Division I level.

[The Walrus]

Mussman is not stuck with anything. He is the HEAD COACH for crying out loud. If he didn't want co-defensive coordinators, there wouldn't be co-defensive coordinators.

UND should fire both Mannaussau and Kelling and then bring in a new defensive coordinator who can run the system of his choosing whether it is a 3-4 or a 4-3. The personnell we have currently is a non-factor as I expect true freshmen and redshirt freshmen playing at most positions next year since the talent level of a lot of our upper classmen isn't even close to the Division I level.

Lots of internet message board tough guys on here, you guys know where the Football offices are located.....?

[The Sicatoka]

We didn't have healthy DLs to run a 3-4 on Saturday; how would've we run a 4-3?

[homer]

UND should fire both Mannaussau and Kelling and then bring in a new defensive coordinator who can run the system of his choosing whether it is a 3-4 or a 4-3. The personnell we have currently is a non-factor as I expect true freshmen and redshirt freshmen playing at most positions next year since the talent level of a lot of our upper classmen isn't even close to the Division I level.

That would be because a lot of our upper classmen where recruited to play DII. The 3-4 is an effective defense. It has its strengths and weaknesses just like all defenses. More pro teams are switching to it so it must be alright. It is a complex defense though and I think we need to give some of our younger guys time to learn it and get comfortable with it. Our health right now isn't helping either but hopefully we continue to develop some depth. I know teams have a hard time in preparation for blocking a 3 man front so I personally like the defense. We do need to improve across the defense though which was made very clear yesterday.

[RD17]

UND's scheme is just fine. The 3-4 is very popular all around football again because of all the spread offenses. If anything, UND had a big advantage 8-10 years ago because very few college teams were running a three man front and now a high percentage of them are.

[NDSU grad]

I think it's more difficult to find FCS caliber d-linemen than it is FCS caliber linebackers in this region. Not counting juco's, I would say NDSU has had 3-4 FCS caliber d-linemen in the last 3-5 years, while they have had 5-6 FCS caliber linebackers. I wish NDSU would switch to the 3-4.

[UND92,96]

I think it's more difficult to find FCS caliber d-linemen than it is FCS caliber linebackers in this region. Not counting juco's, I would say NDSU has had 3-4 FCS caliber d-linemen in the last 3-5 years, while they have had 5-6 FCS caliber linebackers. I wish NDSU would switch to the 3-4.

Lennon used to say the same thing at the dII level. Unfortunately, although our recruiting class of 2009 may have reversed the trend, we've had some trouble recruiting really good linebackers in recent years, too.

[RD17]

I think it's more difficult to find FCS caliber d-linemen than it is FCS caliber linebackers in this region. Not counting juco's, I would say NDSU has had 3-4 FCS caliber d-linemen in the last 3-5 years, while they have had 5-6 FCS caliber linebackers. I wish NDSU would switch to the 3-4.

True. Plus to run a good 4-3, you'd better have a couple of DEs that can rush the passer and at least one dominant DT. In a 3-4, your defense can still be effective with the "tweener" type DE that may not have the quickness to be a dominant pass rushing DE in a 4-3 or the size to be a dominant DT in a 4-3. Those types of linemen are easier to find.

[mksioux]

Lots of internet message board tough guys on here, you guys know where the Football offices are located.....?

That exactly is that supposed to mean? I pointed out something abundantly obvious. He is the head coach and can make the decision on whether he wants one or two defensive coordinators. He does not need to maintain two defensive coordinators just because Lennon did it that way. I have no idea how you interpreted that as me being a tough guy.

[dlsiouxfan]

Lots of internet message board tough guys on here, you guys know where the Football offices are located.....?

Their are expectations that come with every position. The last four years none of those expectations have been met. If a player is underperforming he should be replaced and the same thing should be done if a coach is underperforming. If we want to get where we want to be we can't tolerate underperformance and losing in this program.

[The Walrus]

That exactly is that supposed to mean? I pointed out something abundantly obvious. He is the head coach and can make the decision on whether he wants one or two defensive coordinators. He does not need to maintain two defensive coordinators just because Lennon did it that way. I have no idea how you interpreted that as me being a tough guy.

Their are expectations that come with every position. The last four years none of those expectations have been met. If a player is underperforming he should be replaced and the same thing should be done if a coach is underperforming. If we want to get where we want to be we can't tolerate underperformance and losing in this program.

I'm saying if you want to tell someone how to do their job, or call for them to be replaced, maybe you should do it face to face instead of on some message board.

[SiouxMeNow]

I'm saying if you want to tell someone how to do their job, or call for them to be replaced, maybe you should do it face to face instead of on some message board.

AGREE!!! We don't need to act like b*s**ville here! It IS a transition after all and we've barely gotten our feet wet - gimme a break!

[thequestionguy]

UND should fire both Mannaussau and Kelling and then bring in a new defensive coordinator who can run the system of his choosing whether it is a 3-4 or a 4-3. The personnell we have currently is a non-factor as I expect true freshmen and redshirt freshmen playing at most positions next year since the talent level of a lot of our upper classmen isn't even close to the Division I level.

I think the biggest question of having the co-coordinators is who is calling the defense?

[The Walrus]

JK does, and (imo) he is more comfortable running a traditional 4-3 Defense. MM style I believe is more of a gambling blitz from all angles, take chances. MM played in that style under Lennon with Bubba. Not saying either is right or wrong, but we seem to have a 4-3 scheme at times with 3-4 personel and visa versa.

You all know my thoughts is that I think we should just have 1 DC, I do not like Co-Coordinators, especially with different attacks and approaches.

This is not the reason we lost the game on Saturday, it was a complete team effort, Offense, Defense, Special Teams, Coaches, and we could always use some more fans....

[thequestionguy]

JK does, and (imo) he is more comfortable running a traditional 4-3 Defense. MM style I believe is more of a gambling blitz from all angles, take chances. MM played in that style under Lennon with Bubba. Not saying either is right or wrong, but we seem to have a 4-3 scheme at times with 3-4 personel and visa versa.

You all know my thoughts is that I think we should just have 1 DC, I do not like Co-Coordinators, especially with different attacks and approaches.

This is not the reason we lost the game on Saturday, it was a complete team effort, Offense, Defense, Special Teams, Coaches, and we could always use some more fans....

I didn't mean to infer the defense was the only reason and you are completely correct in saying it was a team loss. I figured JK was calling the defense as the defense has been lacking the qualities and traits that it had when we turned the corner in the mid 90's and won a national championship with. In my mind, if MM was calling the shots, USF would not have scored 28, we would have created some turnovers, sacks, etc. And adjustments would have been made between series and halftime......

[The Walrus]

I didn't mean to infer the defense was the only reason and you are completely correct in saying it was a team loss. I figured JK was calling the defense as the defense has been lacking the qualities and traits that it had when we turned the corner in the mid 90's and won a national championship with. In my mind, if MM was calling the shots, USF would not have scored 28, we would have created some turnovers, sacks, etc. And adjustments would have been made between series and halftime......

They are both good Coaches and personal friends, I will not choose between the two of them on a message board, besides It's not my place, Coach Mussman gets that fun job. The team on Saturday for some reason lacked fire and heart on both sides of the footbal and special teams, hopefully is was just a bad day at work.

Both the 4-3 and 3-4 take talented kids to run, some on here have said it's harder to find the Athletic DL or DE that is why the 3-4 is better, It was also hard to find guys like Challahan, Blue, Dixon, Brennan, Enger, Halvorson, but this same group of Coaches found them and we won, my bet is we will again....

[mksioux]

I'm saying if you want to tell someone how to do their job, or call for them to be replaced, maybe you should do it face to face instead of on some message board.

Fans are not supposed to voice opinions on the decisions of a coach of a Division I football program? I must have missed the memo on that one...as did the rest of the college football fans in the country.

For the record, I didn

[The Walrus]

(Otherwise, GFY. )

That's adult....thanks