Once it's over how long will you continue to wear the Sioux Logo

[petey23]

I will always support UND athletics, but I will never buy any merchandise that has a logo or name other than the Sioux on it. I would buy items that say UND on them or University of North Dakota but can promise you I will never buy anything with a name or logo different than The Fighting Sioux. And I am pretty sure I am not alone in this. I don't think you will stop hearing "lets go Sioux" in our sports arenas for a long, long time.

[dagies]

No one will forget the Sioux nickname, but people will accept the new nickname much sooner than many people anticipate. There will be some that that totally ignore the new nickname, especially at first, but after a few years, it will be a non-subject.

I generally agree with you but I also think the time that this takes will be largely dependant on how good or bad the new nickname and logo are perceived to be by the fanbase. If we become the "Freeze" or the "Sundogs" (Goon's nightmare) it may take a generation but if it's something that evokes the spirit of North Dakota with a decent logo, something people can identify with and is attractive the transition time will be much shorter.

For myself, I'll still wear my Sioux gear for a period of time to hockey games. Maybe only a year or so. If the new nickname/ logo is horrible I may never give it up. If it's decent maybe after a year or so I'll get some new gear. But I will never give up wearing my Sioux gear totally.

[Goon]

I generally agree with you but I also think the time that this takes will be largely dependant on how good or bad the new nickname and logo are perceived to be by the fanbase. If we become the "Freeze" or the "Sundogs" (Goon's nightmare) it may take a generation

If the UND name becomes SunDogs, my head is going to explode and I might give up my tickets. Like I said earlier if it was changed to SunDogs or Flickertails that is the threshold that I can not accept other than that. I am good. I do believe that the University is going to have to find a moniker that is acceptable.

[Chewey]

Heh.

In 1998, the union that represented the aircraft mechanics used union dues to buy the union CEO or President a brand new Learjet 60. How would you feel if your union, which is supposed to spend money representing you, is instead buying some big wig a $3 million (at least) private jet? Undoubtedly (though this wasn't furnished) they also paid for a flight crew.

I don't remember what happened after that, but seriously....

There is a reason why Unions are the best and worst things to ever happen to blue collar workers.

There was a case, in the last couple of years, in CA (I forget where specifically but I think it was there) where the union members objected to the uses to which their dues were being applied. The Court said that it was their money and they had an interest in determining where the dues were applied. It related to the unions' massive campaign contributions to democratic groups/candidates. I think both parties are an absolute pox on American society but at least those union members who objected were able to select which pox they wanted. IF only we could do this with our tax dollars.

There is a reason why this name-changing garbage has not worked in professional sports. If you change the team name of the Cleveland Indians to pacify a fraction of a fraction of a minority, how long does anyone think that franchise would exist as fans stop buying tickets, merchandise, etc.? There is no public dole to underwrite that kind of absoute silliness like there is with UND who has the poor ND taxpayers and some alumni (but not this one) who get stuck with the bill as a result of the SBHE's lack of spine and complete lack of real-world perspective. The free-market and private enterprise are great things, indeed, if only because they help to insulate against this business and prevent it. This is why no private owner should be amenable to accepting public dollars to build stadiums. There is a chance that public dollars turns into "public" dictating by a minority of a minority regarding entirely private matters. Could you see some PC city/state/county hacks telling the Indians that the lease payments for the Jake will go up or that they could not use the Jake unless they changed their name? The first time you accept public dollars, the greater the chance that stupid politicizing like this will occur. I can tell you that there would be a Hue and Cry so huge in Cuyahoga County if this ever happened that even consummate back-water liberals like Dennis Kucinich would be opposed to it.

[Big A HG]

I generally agree with you but I also think the time that this takes will be largely dependant on how good or bad the new nickname and logo are perceived to be by the fanbase. If we become the "Freeze" or the "Sundogs" (Goon's nightmare) it may take a generation but if it's something that evokes the spirit of North Dakota with a decent logo, something people can identify with and is attractive the transition time will be much shorter.

For myself, I'll still wear my Sioux gear for a period of time to hockey games. Maybe only a year or so. If the new nickname/ logo is horrible I may never give it up. If it's decent maybe after a year or so I'll get some new gear. But I will never give up wearing my Sioux gear totally.

Right, that is one thing you have to consider is the actual nickname chosen. As bad as the university has handled the whole nickname issue, you have to trust that they'll put something out there that is a worthy replacement.

[redwing77]

There was a case, in the last couple of years, in CA (I forget where specifically but I think it was there) where the union members objected to the uses to which their dues were being applied. The Court said that it was their money and they had an interest in determining where the dues were applied. It related to the unions' massive campaign contributions to democratic groups/candidates. I think both parties are an absolute pox on American society but at least those union members who objected were able to select which pox they wanted. IF only we could do this with our tax dollars.

There is a reason why this name-changing garbage has not worked in professional sports. If you change the team name of the Cleveland Indians to pacify a fraction of a fraction of a minority, how long does anyone think that franchise would exist as fans stop buying tickets, merchandise, etc.? There is no public dole to underwrite that kind of absoute silliness like there is with UND who has the poor ND taxpayers and some alumni (but not this one) who get stuck with the bill as a result of the SBHE's lack of spine and complete lack of real-world perspective. The free-market and private enterprise are great things, indeed, if only because they help to insulate against this business and prevent it. This is why no private owner should be amenable to accepting public dollars to build stadiums. There is a chance that public dollars turns into "public" dictating by a minority of a minority regarding entirely private matters. Could you see some PC city/state/county hacks telling the Indians that the lease payments for the Jake will go up or that they could not use the Jake unless they changed their name? The first time you accept public dollars, the greater the chance that stupid politicizing like this will occur. I can tell you that there would be a Hue and Cry so huge in Cuyahoga County if this ever happened that even consummate back-water liberals like Dennis Kucinich would be opposed to it.

Corruption.... in CALIFORNIA? NO BLEEPING WAY!

On a seperate debate: Which state is more corrupt: California or Louisiana? HARD to say, isn't it?

[Herd]

If your admin makes a wise naming choice, 95% of your fan base will be converted in 5 years as they go through the normal change acceptance process. The examples are numerous, but Marquette, who won a DI basketball championship as Warriors, is a good example. While there will be some diehards, it will not be "the thing" to promote the old nickname after 5 years. That's just the way it is.

A wise choice would be something with history like Roughriders, or something that defines the state and helps fans of ND to get behind it. The better the new nichname, the sooner the masses will convert.

[dagies]

Right, that is one thing you have to consider is the actual nickname chosen. As bad as the university has handled the whole nickname issue, you have to trust that they'll put something out there that is a worthy replacement.

While this process is not tested here at UND, there are far too many examples in sports around the country where the nicknames are just unacceptable to me to trust that a worthy replacement will be found and approved. Found? Yes. Approved? Hmmmmmm....

[Big A HG]

While this process is not tested here at UND, there are far too many examples in sports around the country where the nicknames are just unacceptable to me to trust that a worthy replacement will be found and approved. Found? Yes. Approved? Hmmmmmm....

The problem is, nothing will sound as "right" as Sioux. We'll see.... I still stand my ground.

[redwing77]

I think there is a lot of credence to the possibility that no one will be happy with the change whatever it is.

If opinion were different, this thread wouldn't exist and the name would already have been changed.

[82SiouxGuy]

I think there is a lot of credence to the possibility that no one will be happy with the change whatever it is.

If opinion were different, this thread wouldn't exist and the name would already have been changed.

I beg to differ with you a little bit. The vast majority of us are not happy that a change seems very likely. That's why this thread and several others exist. Without seeing the future it is impossible to predict that no one will be happy with the change at any point in the future. A certain group will be happy with the change, the size of the group will depend on the quality of a replacement, how it is implemented and how long it has been since the change. More people will be happy in 5 years than in 1 year and more people happy in 10 years. And there will definitely be a group that will never be happy with a change.

[82SiouxGuy]

The problem is, nothing will sound as "right" as Sioux. We'll see.... I still stand my ground.

The problem is that Fighting Sioux is a great nickname. It would be (will be?) hard to replace. But I agree with you that a good nickname can be found and a successful switch is possible. But I also know that nothing is going to please everyone.

[petey23]

If your admin makes a wise naming choice, 95% of your fan base will be converted in 5 years as they go through the normal change acceptance process. The examples are numerous, but Marquette, who won a DI basketball championship as Warriors, is a good example. While there will be some diehards, it will not be "the thing" to promote the old nickname after 5 years. That's just the way it is.

A wise choice would be something with history like Roughriders, or something that defines the state and helps fans of ND to get behind it. The better the new nichname, the sooner the masses will convert.

Except I couldn't tell you what name marquestte is going by right now. When I think Marquestte I still think Warriors and it's been over 10 years.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Should we leave the board? Are we abandoning the students?

I wanted to stay away from this subject, but here's the one that always got me going when it was brought up at my school.

No, I'm not

abandoning

anything because I don't support Illinois athletics anymore. There are a million and one good charities out there. For that matter, there are a million and one

schools

out there. For me, there's Northern Illinois where several relatives have attended: there's local high schools, there's school-like organizations such as the Boy Scouts, and there's good causes galore.

I will not support something I don't agree with. Just because I gave some group money once does not mean I need to support them forever if the group has been hijacked by some PC professors and psychotic "do-gooders" who have no grounding in reality.

[redwing77]

Except I couldn't tell you what name marquestte is going by right now. When I think Marquestte I still think Warriors and it's been over 10 years.

I also beg to differ with using Marquette as an example because it actually plays well into dagies' hand.

I believe that now they are the Golden Eagles (which they are).

That is NOT the first nickname they changed to when they dropped the Warriors moniker. Their first? They just changed the name to "Gold."

That went well until nearly every alumni wrote letters to Marquette stating that the nickname is a great reason to cease sending in money. Change it or kiss the money goodbye.

They changed it very quickly.

Here is the story. Yeah, it is wikipedia. Deal with it.

[DamStrait]

While this process is not tested here at UND, there are far too many examples in sports around the country where the nicknames are just unacceptable to me to trust that a worthy replacement will be found and approved. Found? Yes. Approved? Hmmmmmm....

I question "found" as well, as I have yet to hear one that fits. I remain opitmistic, but guarded.

[Chewey]

"Golden Eagles" is a stupid nickname, in my humble opinion, but it is marginally better than "Gold." Last I checked, eagles were not golden. They are brown feathered with white feathers at the head. Watch out, however, the "Golden" part of it may offend the working proletariat and may connote elitism to some. BTW, my brother is an English prof in suburban Chicago (and Marquette grad) and he wears his "Fighting Sioux" jersey with pride and he refers to Marquette as the "Warriors." I guess not everyone in the Humanities is a fruitcake.

[DamStrait]

"Golden Eagles" is a stupid nickname, in my humble opinion, but it is marginally better than "Gold." Last I checked, eagles were not golden. They are brown feathered with white feathers at the head. Watch out, however, the "Golden" part of it may offend the working proletariat and may connote elitism to some. BTW, my brother is an English prof in suburban Chicago (and Marquette grad) and he wears his "Fighting Sioux" jersey with pride and he refers to Marquette as the "Warriors." I guess not everyone in the Humanities is a fruitcake.

Golden Eagle

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

That is NOT the first nickname they changed to when they dropped the Warriors moniker. Their first? They just changed the name to "Gold."

No, they first went to Golden Eagles. I think you want to utilize to that timeline below in that Wikipedia link. It's a lot closer to reality.

They went PC back in the 1990's with "Golden Eagles". About ten years after that, when they decided it was going over like the proverbial lead balloon they

formed a committee

(and

beware of that happening at your school

) which included one of their trustees, who was a MARKETING PROFESSIONAL. That's when the abomination of "Gold" came up. A high ranking official (either the president or the president of the Board of Trustees) came out with the "it's going to be "Gold" and that's that: end of discussion" statement when the overwhelmingly negative public reaction started to came in.

His ironclad, rigid, "my way or the highway" stance lasted oh, about a good week or so.

This is one of the textbook,

classic

foulups in marketing, right alongside New Coke. They ended up going back to Golden Eagles after wasting a lot of money and getting absolutely lit up by their alums and the press. I don't know if that trustee resigned, but he/she should have.

Check out YouTube: I'll bet if you search for "Marquette Gold", ESPN and Dewayne Wade you'll find his reaction when he was blindsided with this disaster. It's hilarious.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

BTW, my brother is an English prof in suburban Chicago (and Marquette grad) and he wears his "Fighting Sioux" jersey with pride and he refers to Marquette as the "Warriors."

At the games you'll hear either "Let's go Warriors" or "We are Marquette". I don't think you'll hear much about Eagles at all.

Also out there in cyberspace is the story of the student who came to the games (in the official student section) with a headdress. The powers-that-be either tried to boot him out or did actually boot him out.

They're sticking to their PC guns, but its costing them money.

BTW, here's [strikethrough]another Wikipedia entry[/strikethrough]. (Sorry, I realized that's not Wikipedia but rather a wiki from a specific site. My bad.) It's a bit more strident.

http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/nickname/golden_eagles

And a little bit on the disaster of "Gold" that I referenced above.

http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/nickname/gold

For fun, look at the link to JS (that's the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal) that's at the bottom of that last page and enlarge the picture. Also in that links section is the Dewayne Wade reaction on YouTube.

[Chewey]

Golden Eagle

I stand better informed. Thank you. I still think it's an asinine name though. Winona State has gotten by with "Warriors" and they are not on the NC00 S+99 list. They do have a European symbol of some sort. I guess they did not consult with the Sioux tribe up by Red Wing.

Some do-gooders were out in DickinsonND a few years back making trouble about the "Midgets" nickname that the public high school uses. I think they were told to pound sand, in so many words, by all of those Germans out there. Had the SBHE made an announcement there about that nickname and not the "Fighting Sioux" nickname they probably would have been asked to kindly leave Stark County.

[UND Fan]

My modest donations were being used by people and programs that I do not support and whom I consider to have very warped political views and a phobia about not only free expression/speech but also different ideas. This is how we in America show our disapproval of weenies like many of the faculty and administration at UND. Dollars are very hard to come by these days and this is the wrong time for the SBHE to be cutting things so closely and not allowing things to play out along the time line that it agreed to in the settlement. If you do stuff to piss off alumni and you have a systemic problem where professors label those who disagree with them as racists, don't expect to get any money from the alumni; it's that simple. If you want another modern-day example, look at people who were forced to pay union dues and had no control over where they were applied.

I guess I don't understand how you feel that withholding contributions to the Athletic Department is a way to protest the Administration's and faculty's liberal viewpoints (by the way, I agree with that assessment). Having a weak Athletic Dept at a university only helps the majority of the faculty/leadership who feel there is already too much emphasis and too much $ spent on athletics.

Our teams, coaches and athletes have nothing to do with the folks that you are so disappointed in. There are just trying to do their best to win games and represent UND in a positive manner. With very few exception, they do the latter very well!

I fully agree that these are tough times - if someone has to cut back on their contributions, I fully understand that. Family must come first!

[Big A HG]

Just an honest question...I have no opinion on it...

Is it fair to the future players who will be playing under the new nickname when everyone is still yelling "Go Sioux!" and wearing Sioux stuff?

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Just an honest question...I have no opinion on it...

Is it fair to the future players who will be playing under the new nickname when everyone is still yelling "Go Sioux!" and wearing Sioux stuff?

Well, is it fair to the younger brother (or sister) in some long line of Sioux hockey players, or wrestlers, or maybe debaters who has grown up dreaming of the day that he can compete and

hear

"Let's go Sioux" if he's now told that he'll hear "let's go Banana Slugs" or "let's go Praire Fire"?? What about the former player who dreamed of the day that his/her son/daughter would hear "Let's go Sioux"? How about the Mom/Dad who always dreamed of yelling that for their child?

There are no good answers.

"Deserve ain't got nothin' to do with it."

[siouxhockeyfan11]

Forever